Did the founding fathers really not want teachers praying and reading the bible in schools? If you look at history, during their time they opened the Senate with a word of prayer, and all the Colleges back then were CHristian and had seminary class. Why has the supreme court taken it so out of context, or have they? Were we founded on a Christian nation?
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P&S Moderators: JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat
Seperationg of Church and State
- Thread starter emilseine
- Start date
anastasius
Greenlighter
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2014
- Messages
- 12
A great book to do a research on is "The Light and the Glory" by Peter Marshall. It includes all sorts of references too.
sekio
Bluelight Crew
James Madison said:
First Amendment said:
Just because all the founding fathers were white Christian males doesn't mean America is an exclusively white Christian nation.
Part of the reason that freedom of religion is a popular thing is because there was extensive persecution of people like some christian denominations at one time by the Church of England. The Catholics and Protestants did not always play nicely, and as a result things were politically rather messy when the church also had its hand in state affairs.
Mono-religious prayer and religious instruction in goivernment-funded schools is the equivalent of the government telling children that "this religion is the best". It's not a good path to go down.
rickolasnice
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2007
- Messages
- 6,810
Does it really matter?
+ What Sekio said.
+ What Sekio said.
sekio
Bluelight Crew
The Founding Fathers were well aware of the problems that come with church and state being intertwined, you forget that the Puritans who decided the Catholic Church was bad made up some of the emigrants to America, and that it was formed well after the messy Catholic/Protestant split in England.
If they had wanted it to be a Protestant Christian nation they would have codified it. But they didn't, so it really doesn't matter at all if they had prayer or basket weaving class. Just because prayer was an accepted daily activity then doesn't make it mandatory now.
If they had wanted it to be a Protestant Christian nation they would have codified it. But they didn't, so it really doesn't matter at all if they had prayer or basket weaving class. Just because prayer was an accepted daily activity then doesn't make it mandatory now.
Kittycat5
Bluelighter
Because that was the norm for the time. The US was brand new. There was no precedent either in the law or culture challenging the practice. It is not like once the Constitution was signed, everyone stopped their normal activities and switched to new ways. The Constitution lays the groundwork for what are the basic and common laws of the republic. But it takes challenging people's practices based on these laws for change to occur.
Kittycat5
Bluelighter
I think they wanted to limit what the government had authority to control more than anything else. They didn't want the government infringing on the rights of its citizens to practice religion as they saw fit but did not explicitly say religion cannot be used in public or governmental procedures.
^ that's your case? that the precise phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the constitution?
the idea is enshrined in: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
alasdair
the idea is enshrined in: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
alasdair
Kittycat5
Bluelighter
I am not so sure reading the first amendment at face value implies separation of church and state. It speaks more of what the government cannot do to religion more than what it chooses to do with it. But throughout the years it has been upheld as what we now believe this separation to be. And I am totally fine with it.
Foreigner
Bluelighter
A few things.
The first is that the U.S. Constitution was created to limit government power. It says what the government cannot do, not what it can do. The First Amendment was made to protect the People from tyranny.
A little known fact about the First Amendment was that its inspiration came from a desire to prevent the government from influencing the Church, not the other way around. It was believed that when government began to dictate the morals of God then there would be real tyrannical problems like what happened with the Church of England. So... the irony here is that the separation of Church and State is actually about protecting God worship from government involvement. In modern times though, the opposite need has arisen... to protect the masses from the tyranny of the Churches. It functions both ways.
Lastly, it's true that there was a lot of Christianity in early America which formed traditions in government institutions, but that was merely a product of the dominant culture and demographic. Doesn't mean that it's a Christian nation, or that those institutions can't now be challenged under the First. The truth is that government rituals around religion have always been a First Amendment violation, but because the vast majority were Christian at the time, they didn't care.
The first is that the U.S. Constitution was created to limit government power. It says what the government cannot do, not what it can do. The First Amendment was made to protect the People from tyranny.
A little known fact about the First Amendment was that its inspiration came from a desire to prevent the government from influencing the Church, not the other way around. It was believed that when government began to dictate the morals of God then there would be real tyrannical problems like what happened with the Church of England. So... the irony here is that the separation of Church and State is actually about protecting God worship from government involvement. In modern times though, the opposite need has arisen... to protect the masses from the tyranny of the Churches. It functions both ways.
Lastly, it's true that there was a lot of Christianity in early America which formed traditions in government institutions, but that was merely a product of the dominant culture and demographic. Doesn't mean that it's a Christian nation, or that those institutions can't now be challenged under the First. The truth is that government rituals around religion have always been a First Amendment violation, but because the vast majority were Christian at the time, they didn't care.
ebola?
Bluelight Crew
The First Amendment was built largely out of a philosophical response to the English Civil War of the 1600s, where the fighting was driven by multiple groups attempting to install a Protestant theocracy. Its aim is to curb the brutal fighting that can come with struggle over politicized religion, at least by limiting the state's role as an actor in such conflicts. As such, yes, the Founding Fathers would not condone public education inculcating children in any particular religion. Incidentally, this noted political and philosophical movement tended to veer mostly toward deism.
ebola
ebola
If you have any doubt, read Virginia's Religious Freedom Law of 1786, written by Thomas Jefferson. It's a lot more clear about the "wall of separation" Jefferson wished to establish to create a secular government. His more grandiose ideas were scaled back in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.