Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don’t Know How It Works

[entheogensmurf]

My apologies in that I have no researched the legally available alternatives deeply enough to hold a solid opinion, beyond that of:
1. AA is bunk and while some from the org are to me obviously caring and seek to help for worthy reasons, it does more harm than good.
2. That at the core, any system that has a person surrender to any concept of higher power in place of attempting to trust in themselves, the people capable of assisting them and "loved ones," is doomed to fail and ultimately be a source of harm or energy and will best spent on credible ventures. This is a topic I do intend on becoming obsessively entrenched in eventually for a variety of reasons.

My delving into the alternatives with the use of psychoactive substances as a tool with the treatment of abuse and addiction is quite vast, which has long since been quite clear with indication of potential and already proven effectiveness.

Pretty interesting article. A few ppl I know are trying to get me to attend meetings with them because they work so great for them, but I dont know if I even belive in god so I cant see it helping me any. Are most group meetings all basically the same in which some sort of god or whatever is what there based around?

With just a short search, some of these ring a bell:
Top 7 Best Alcoholics Anonymous Alternatives List
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=28817

Again, I need to do the reading to provide more opinion beyond the above.

Good article. The fact is 100's of thousands of people have completely turned their lives around and often saved their life because of AA and NA meetings. Regardless if the philosophies behind it and the "Vaguely defined higher power", it does work and help a lot of people.

I can't personally get my head round it yet and can't seem to make it work for me. I can imagine that a lot of people of this fourm are in the same boat. As, making a very big generalisation here, we want to tackle our problems our own way. I'm basing this, loosely, on the fact that by becoming a member of a forum like bluelight, one has already shown that they want to do their own research into drugs, alcohol, the effects and problems caused by them and how to get better.

I still attend meetings, with the aim to try to make them work for me, but no luck thus far.

For the very few that AA help so to speak, it is easy enough to address, however, thank goodness another far more articulate did so, providing the justice to the importance of the topic

The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment by A. Orange
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.

A 5% success rate is nothing more than the rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics and drug addicts. That is, out of any given group of alcoholics or drug addicts, approximately 5% per year will just wise up, and quit killing themselves. They just get sick and tired of being sick and tired, and of watching their friends die. (And something between 1% and 3% of their friends do die annually, so that is a big incentive.) They often quit with little or no official treatment or help. Some actually detox themselves on their own couches, or in their own beds, or locked in their own closets. Often, they don't go to a lot of meetings. They just quit, all on their own, or with the help of a couple of good friends who keep them locked up for a few days while they go through withdrawal. A.A. and N.A. true believers insist that addicts can't successfully quit that way, but they do, every day.


...an alcoholism treatment program that seems to have a 5% success rate probably really has a zero percent success rate — it is just taking credit for the spontaneous remission that is happening anyway. It is taking the credit for the people who were going to quit anyway. And a program that has less than a five percent success rate, like four or three, may really have a negative success rate — it is actually keeping some people from succeeding in getting clean and sober. Any success rate that is less than the usual rate of spontaneous remission indicates a program that is a real disaster and is hurting the patients.

The citations are available for the claims made in that article.

Anyone checked out S.M.A.R.T before? (Self management and recovery training). Similar type of thing, with Live online meetings, which I can imagine a lot of people on here would be interested in. Link: http://www.smartrecovery.org/

No, however, I will sooner than later (with 2 months).

I can't personally get my head round it yet and can't seem to make it work for me

The psychology behind AA is something of which that can be extracted and analyzed. I am certain, or consider it quite probable that you could both understand the concepts and with illumination apparent, become aware why it is not something you can make work work for you.

Perhaps in the coming weeks I will start up my project to explain this as it appears to not be answered in the way I see fit and to the fruition for communities such as BL. I can see that quite a few do comprehend the core aspects already, so at least I know there are some out there already there.
One piece to this is that one need only stand back and look at AA and run a comparative analysis between it and that of the function of at least the majority if not ALL theistic religions, with special attention to the Abrahamic ones (Islam and Christianity as the final two of the three as template examples).



Book PLUG!
You can find this on various places such as Amazon and Green Wood:

Psychedelic Medicine [Two Volumes]: New Evidence for Hallucinogenic Substances as Treatments
Thomas B. Roberts, Michael Winkelman

There are more to read out there, though, this one provides a great starting point.

 

[dankstersauce]

I can't hate on AA too much, it did help me out during a crazy period in my life and I met some really good people.

But there are a couple things that made me stop going. The main reasons being that the whole "once an addict always an addict" thing. To me it was just a self fulfilling prophecy, like you get told SO fuckin many times that "you have no control", "if you drink or drug just a little you'll go back to addiction because YOU HAVE NO CONTROL" etc. And at the time I was living in a sober halfway house and I saw guys live out this idea over and over again. If they used (even just a little) these guys would get a "fuck it all" attitude and go out and use like crazy. IMHO I think this was more of these guys living out the brainwashing than the beast that is addiction. Like someone who only wanted a beer and made a decision to drink and then thought "oh shit I relapsed....I guess I got no other option than to go smoke a boulder of crack."

IMHO it doesn't do much good to tell someone who is down and out that they'll NEVER be able to live a normal life again. Just implanting the idea that you're fucked up, everything is your fault, in the fragile mind of someone who's hit bottom is dangerous.


Since initially getting sober I've been able to use drugs and alcohol with control. I've realized that labeling myself an addict (forever) is a fucking idiotic idea....it makes it so I can never move forward from my past.

At the same time I've seen some people really thrive in AA, so if it works for you rock it out. But it doesn't really work for me anymore.

 

[Khadijah]

Yea dankstersauce you said the same things i been sayin, i 100% believe its a self fulfilling prophecy and people talkin themselfs into failing. The "always an addict" thing is just like havin a handy convenient excuse always there waitin for you....Its like the the option to use is always right there for you becuz you always an addict....

thats why I hate goin to NA meetings , but i am forced to go for probation....I cant stand to introduce myself as "an addict" so I always just go and say i am a "visitor" becuz I AINT a addict. I aint addicted to heroin no more. Mentally, i am a completely different person with that compulsion and obsession to use, light years away from who i am now. i dont think like a addict, act like one, or feel like one in any way....I am me, i am PAST that shit....I aint gonna PERMANENTLY IDENTIFY MYSELF as somethin so NEGATIVE....The point is to RECOVER and get PAST it...not spend your whole life with your entire identity tied up in believing you are just a helpless "addict"....i aint down with that i cant get with it and i believe its horribly negative to a persons recovery to have their MAIN identity, the ENTIRE thing that they identify themself as, be "ADDICT" instead of mother, father, hard worker, artist, musician, doctor, or WTFever you are--You SO MUCH MORE THAN THAT.....And if you ARE still addicted....It shouldnt be the FIRST thing you identify yourself as.

I am lacey....And I am a independent, strong minded person...soon to be mom...part of a loving family....loving wife to a great man...artist...beautician....and formerly addicted to heroin.....Not, forget all the other shit about me that makes ME who i am as a person, "i am just a drug addict."

na, that shit dont fly, and it aint a positive way to look at yourself.

the whole idea that addicts suffer from so much shame...Well maybe its becuz every fucking day they hear at meetings, "Yea, you might be a successful doctor...you might have a house, a good family...you might be clean 5 years off heroin....BUT YOURE STILL AN ADDICT AND ALWAYS WIL BE!!"

Like any time you finally DO accompllish something, not only is it totally canceled out by the fact that "you may be all that but you always gonna be a DRUG ADDICT" and ALSO the whole idea that "You didnt do this yourself. You didnt accomplish this. You didnt graduate medical school becuz you had the power to. you didnt quit heroin becuz you had the strenth to do it. you aint got none of this becuz you earned it and deserve it and made it happen for yourself--The only reason you got it is becuz GOD gave it to you, YOU had nothing to do with it..."

way to help build up someoens self esteem....

I see so much talk and behavior at meetings that helps to keep peoples sense of shame and low self worth goin strong...and that shit makes me mad becuz its suppose to be about getting free from that but yet all you ever hear is the bullshit fake self deprecating shit like "We a bunch of manipulators in here! we just some selfish egomaniacs, lets face it, right!" and all this talk about how "we" are no good, and just a buncha liars and frauds, and etc...Even though we AINT usin no more, that somehow all those negative things are still with us.... ADICTION AINT A CHARACTER DISEASE....it aint like after you quit using, you are still a horrible, shady, sneaky, lying, manipulative, selfish, self centered, big-ego-havin son of a bitch....Well, i know *I* aint.....

You should have humility sure, but i think the amount of people in NA that strive for TRUE humility is rare, and they rather just talk shit about themslefs -- "Im a drug addict---It means Im a arrogant bastard!" but you can always sense the kind of satisfied feeling underneath--they take pride in that label, and teh whole "Im still a addict" thing, they use it as a license to still be a dick in alot of cases.

I aint gonna make ANOTHEr booklong post about this shit. But im just sayin. I went to a meeting last night and it was horrible . I wnted to just walk out it was so shitty. But ih ad to stay to get my paper signed for probation.

One woman was bitching abotu how at one meeting she goes to, people bitch about their jobs and shes like "i just dont wanna hear about it! I dont care! i dont care where you work at, or wat happened at work today thats upsetting you! It shouldnt be about your job in NA!"

And im just thinking....BITCH.....You are the same one who asks to share, and then whines about how your room mate keeps not closing the bathroom door all the way when she goes to the bathroom, and its really upsetting yuo and you feel like youre gonna use becuz it makes you so annoyed, and you got a burning deisre to get high becuz your roomate just pisses you off so much and you just need to vent, and bitch bitch bitch.....

YOU aint got no right to tell someone "i dont wanna hear it"...All these meetigns ARE, is a bunch of whiney-ass people who want to blame EVERyFUCKINGTHING on their addiction and the so called personality flaws of addiction...and just bitch and complain and piss and moan about EVERY little THING that happens to them, and then justify how it makes them want to use, and so they had to go to a meeting today otherwise the fact that their friend keeps putting the toilet paper roll on backwards so it rolls from the top instead of the bottom, is gonna make them go out and get high......

It just gets so. fucking. old.....

 

[jspun]

There are things I don't like about 12 step recovery, the tendency to be overly dogmatic, the meetings with controlling oldtimers who only let their friends share, ect, ect... but their are alot of good things. I'm against the whole court ordered part. The truth is, a majority relapse, but I've seen remarkable changes in those truly motivated. If some one is forced to go to a meeting and is you, I would suggest young peoples' meetings. Down here in southern CA there are some AA meetings that are full of beautiful young people were lots of hooking up goes on. In LA you have meetings full of young hispters from both fellowships (and CA in San Diego). San Francisco in the late 90s had a vibrant artist, straightedge punk scene, bicycle messanger, ect... in NA. Found young people hipster scenes in NYC and Seattle too. The cool thing is being in a city were you don't know anyone and having people to associate with (had that experience in Hawaii- found people to surf with, went to a rave, ect...) Point is there are alot of different meetings with different vibes. And there are shity meetings were people bitch, belittle newcommers, ignore out of towners, and sick old timer men prey on vulnerable young newcommer women. It just a matter of finding the ones that work for you and that might take alittle traveling to different parts of town or different towns nearby and/or asking.

But if someone doesn't want to be there they shouldn't be forced.

The way it works is simple- one addict helping another.

Is it full of brainwashing and slogans, of course.

Is there alot of bullshit that pisses me off-absolutely.

Lacey

You should have humility sure, but i think the amount of people in NA that strive for TRUE humility is rare, and they rather just talk shit about themslefs -- "Im a drug addict---It means Im a arrogant bastard!" but you can always sense the kind of satisfied feeling underneath--they take pride in that label, and teh whole "Im still a addict" thing, they use it as a license to still be a dick in alot of cases.

Unfortunately, this is all to true at many meetings. The people that are humble are usually the ones that reach out to newcommers after the meetings, not trying to sound good for the ladies (or men) as the case may be. Sharing can become just as addicting as dope for many.

A majority of the young probably don't belong there, but compared to faith based program which a sizable portion of middle American courts are sentencing tweakers, AA/NA is the easier, softer way.

The thing I like about it is that you meet people from every walk of life.

Ignore what I just wrote, the question is, why are the majority of 12 stepers in North America- roughly 1/2 the world total? People in other parts of the world figure out ways to moderate- especially alcohol? Maybe its this countries puritanical streak, its tendency towards prohibition.

What I would like to see is something with the social/ (true) spiritual aspects of AA that help people achieve moderation- OA kind of does that- can't stop eating. Problem is that moderation management didn't work out so well.

By the way, I've talked to hundreds about my addiction to posting on bluelight but staying sober- I've only met 1 or 2 out of dozens who have heard of bluelight- and these are young hard drug users/ newcommers. One that had heard of it was into electronica and E/ other psychedelics.

Also, not 1 person new what an RC was- although too much talk about drugs trips people out at the meetings.

 

[erizzle]

Why recovery is so unsuccessful

I have two DUI's already and I just turned 21 a few short weeks ago. After my second one I didn't have much of a choice except to attend court mandated drug and alcohol classes. After only a few classes I figured out what AA, the 12 step program, etc are all about. These programs are designed to leave people feeling as if they are addicted which my counselors were never bashful about admitting. I entered the classes with a fairly open mind, and if nothing else, I knew the classes would be a new life experience. I also knew that I had no intention of completely discontinuing my alcohol use. You can call me stupid, immature, whatever you will because you’re entitled to an opinion. Please, don’t call me an addict.

Before I go out at night I intend on drinking excess amounts of alcohol to get drunk. I know fully well the impairments and the risks associated with binge drinking, but it’s a conscious calculated personal decision made in hopes that my night only consists of fun, which 90% of the time happens to be the case. Drinking with my friends is something I enjoy on occasion that gives me great pleasure. Imagine Travis Pastrana and what he does on a regular basis. He recognizes the risk he is taking before attempting an insane motorcycle jump. I’m also certain no matter how many bones he breaks it is not going to stop him from enjoying his life to the fullest extent by taken some risk.

Anyone that has been through the higher power-submitting your will bull shit classes knows that it’s a joke. Studies have shown proof that devout religious beliefs are tantamount to less educated peoples. Intelligent people find it harder to put their entire faith into an unproven belief system with inherent flaws. The government funded counselors are no different than preachers. They only know one way and cannot fathom anything beyond what their addiction bibles say. I honestly feel sorry for people who are having problems with their addiction seeking help from this type of facility. I wouldn’t say I’m a conspiracy theorist, but my honest belief is these facilities were designed to keep themselves full of sniveling addicts who have been told their whole lives, “You are sick, with a disease. Your whole life’s focus needs to be your addiction and living with it.” Instead of offering a cure for their so called “disease”, the counselors introduce patients to a lifetime of self loathing and pity.

People who have diseases search for strength within themselves to overcome their ailment in hopes they can someday go back to living their lives as a healthy person. So, even if we accept the so called idea of the disease model pertaining to addiction, it is still a rather contradictory affair.

The best medicine I have found for overcoming problems within one’s own life is through self introspection. People with a decent head on their shoulders can sort through their problems on their own. Would it be so wild to suggest that a recovering addict can overcome their addiction whilst planning to indulge in substance in the future? Newer neuroscience studies show that damage caused to neural connections in the brain by addiction is reversible. The studies claim the brain will eventually revert back to a state not unlike the one before the addiction occurred. I hypothesize if such an attitude were taken towards addiction we would see a dramatic decrease in complete and total relapse.
Lastly, I would just like to offer my thoughts on the word addiction. Addiction is oftentimes not very well defined because it is essentially indefinable. Imagine the scope of a word that must encompass every substance, at a particular point in time, while still meeting the needs of each person’s unique situation. It is impossible! There are only degrees of addiction. It is rather frustrating when counselors try to diagnose every patient with the same worn out definition and method. Even more frustrating is the way counselors give substance abusers a scapegoat by telling them it is not their fault they are addicted and they are not weak. I have some harsh reality for you, if you are addicted; it is because you have been weak. The good news is people don’t have to be weak if they choose not to be. Everyone possesses the power of choice. I have listened to addicts claiming they have no choice, and counselors encouraging them to admit they are powerless. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Someone claiming they can’t stop a certain behavior even when they so dearly want to is lying to everyone, including themselves. When I hear people say, “I can’t” I know they really mean, “I don’t want to stop quite yet.” The power to stop addictive behavior resides in every healthy person, it is a matter of choice, and when to make that choice.

 

[Khadijah]

i agree with a lot of the shit you sayin....I dont believe that addiction=weak how ever. But i am a FORMER addict (And i definately, absolutely was a addict, i never had no problem admittin that) that got off the shit and still used from time to time. I stayed clean for months n months an then got high as hell for a day. Shoot all the dope i want to . re visit my old friend for old time sake. And then that was it. next day was back to regular non drug life. and it was totally , completely controlled....And i resent the people tryna tell me that it wasnt, an that it was just my adiction, and all that bullshit.

Bein addicted aint a life time condition. not everybody is an addict. But somebody who is one, can also stop bein one, and use normally again someday. its absolutely true and i seen it in my self and a few other people.

the thing that i had a issue with thought which i can understand you NOT understanding, is when you are addicted bad and just stuck in that life style, it aint a matter of choice all the time....you dont want to do these things but you just watchin your self do it, played out like on a movie screen. i could see my self doin all this shit and knowin it was headin for disaster and i honestly just couldnt do a fuckin thing to stop it. it was like livin in a slow motion train wreck.

you aint got experience with heroin addiction and like you said all addictions aint the same...at certain times in my use i could control shit...but other times i couldnt..it sounds so stupid becuz of course i had free will but it was lie my free will was programmed to be on auto pilot or somethin.

But i did eventually break free from that and I dont use no more cuz of things in my life but i do have the ability to use without becomin a miserable addict again...you got to re claim your brain an your will. I agree that its there tho, an AA an NA just make you feel like shit and think that you cant do nothing for your self.


Think about how many people with addictions are smart, intelligent amazing talented people.

Put them on a program that keeps them focused on "RECOVERY" an "THEIR ADDICTION" for the rest of their life and they aint got time to use the talents an skills and brain that they have becusz alll their energy is going to the program and to stayin clean, etc. becuz they get taught that they NEED to devote every fuckin waking minute to recovery or they will fail. bullshit.....think of all the un realized potential that is wasted becuz ppl are using their time on NA and AA isntead of devoting it to makin themself better individually and not just a little program drone....

 

[DubCity23]

Lacey arent you on methadone? trying taking one shot of dope being off it and tell me how it goes. The book says rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed are path. Its so fucking true i have seen so many people get there life back by working a program of recovery. Myself included went from being a homeless junkie crackhead to having a car house girl friends family and everything good in my life back. But i know by trial and error and countless countless rehabs that if i pick up i cant stop. I have a disease a physical allergy to drugs and alchohol. I didnt believe it at first either but after 15 rehabs and it getting worst and worst everytime i use no matter how hard i try to do it once. When i pick up i cant stop and my self will and sick addict mind and thinking makes horrible terrible decisions time after time. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. If there was a way to shoot dope just one time i would have found it. one meeting one hour a day .. helping a drunk... pray .. live by spirtual principals and work a good program and you will find a whole nother way of life. Being a dope fiend is no way of living and I dont know how not to be a dope fiend if im not in AA. seeing ppl try and try to quit on self will is fucking sad man it never works. maybe one in a thousand. And people who can shoot heroin once a month arent addicts or alchoholics. When an alchoholic shoots dope or takes a drink they CANT stop. Its fucking impossible dude. i never thought i wuld be saying this but its so fucking true. If i forget where i came from and that i cant have one and become completely complacent and think i can handle just one i will wind up dead in jail or in rehab if im lucky. I shoot crack and heroin lacey .. i get fuckn high girl. You really need to do some more research and get off the done and try shooting dope. Your a addict. Whether you want to be in active addiction or living your life is a choice. Once you put that first whatever in you and the phenomnon of craving kicks in its no longer a choice. i thought the same way as u until i ended up in rehab 20 times trying to do it MY way. I have to get out of the way and out of my head cause its a bad neighborhood up there and give my life to something greater than myself. A god of my understanding not jesus christ. sorry for the long post uneducated comments just really make me mad. People pay 50,000 dollars to go to rehab and be pointed at AA. Why do all the top rehabs point to AA? Cause it fucking works.

 

[DubCity23]

Lacey you are addicted to methadone. Of course you dont have to worry about dope. You get your fix every morning. Now if your posts were of you being clean or shooting dope once a month maybe you would have a valid arguement. But you get a fix EVERYDAY. Come off the done and do nothing to stay sober .. I really want to know how it works. Because its sad but true lacey it wont work. Youll be shooting dope.

 

[dragonslayer428]

This thread is wack and a lot of supportive replies give 12 step meetings a bad rep. AA is a program of attraction rather than promotion - we don't tell people how great the program is etc and then try and impose it on them or explain why they need it, since we don't label people as alcoholics. If they see what we are like sober and want what we have they can have it by "taking the steps we took which are SUGGESTED as a program of recovery.". As far as methadone and bupe go, good luck. I tried bupe maintenance and know multiple people that did methadone and it didn't work for me. Every single person I knew on the methadone program expressed regret in getting on methadone when they realized how much harder it is to get off of methadone it is than to gett off of heroin. Also, let it be known that AA and the 12 steps are not the only way to recover. There is Rational Recovery, etc. If you can drink or shoot dope like a gentleman, my hat is off to you, but I can't. I find it highly amusing that people who care so little about AA have spend so much time on here telling people how stupid it is. Why bother? And finally, how does AA work? A mystery? We think not. There is in fact a whole chapter in the big book respectively titled "how it works". Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. BASICALLY it is not one thing that works, it is the program as a whole. "Half measures availed us nothing". I actually know somebody who, being a bottomless addict and drunk, worked the program to prove it doesn't work and guess what? It worked. "It works if you work it."

Very well said! I totally agree.

 

[K12]

The secret of AA's success can be found in AA's new slogan.

"Abandon Logic, All Yee That Enter Here"

 

[Exploder]

The problem...

... I always had problems with quantifying 12 step success rates is how you determine success in the first place. 1 day/week/year/10 years/life time sober = success?

I was around AA pretty heavy (meeting a day) for much of the last 4-5 years. Eventually I grew out of it (or grew up you might say).

 

[Khadijah]

Oh , L-O-FUCKIN-L dubcity23. I cant even do nothing but laugh. I aint even gonna bother to go into the factual logical mistakes in your post like the hilarious concept of being "allergic" to drugs and how apparently you are unable to understand the difference between addiction and dependence. Im sure plenty of other posters on here can have a field day tearin that shit apart, but Ima just skip over to your second post.

Let me tell you somethin. Preach all you want, becuz I am happy and I am successful and I am clean. I really aint interested in hearing about if you consider me clean or not , or your predictions for my future. Im happier than i ever been in my life, Im content, Im satisfied, and most important, I know in my heart that I am absolutely clean, and I also know that i will never, ever go back to the life that I use to live when i was addicted to heroin, and thats all that matters.

Just for the record, The person who gotta say the kind of shit that you do to other people, is usually the person who is tryna mask their own insecurity by pointin fingers at others. Im 101% sure of myself and absolutely know that I aint got to fear none of the shit that your AA crystal ball is seein in my future, so keep flappin those gums, I aint worried.

It must suck to claim to be so happy with your program but still feel the need to put other people down who free themself from addiction in a different way than you chose to. I aint sure how good the program is workin for you if you got the attitude that you do. It seems like you got some problems with people who can be happy and succeed at gettin off drugs in a different way than you did. That dont sound too healthy to me. Im sorry that you are so negative. I hope you can mellow out and learn to stop bein so angry and judgmental in the future, trust me it will make you a lot less miserable.

 

[DubCity23]

Oh , L-O-FUCKIN-L dubcity23. I cant even do nothing but laugh. I aint even gonna bother to go into the factual logical mistakes in your post like the hilarious concept of being "allergic" to drugs and how apparently you are unable to understand the difference between addiction and dependence. Im sure plenty of other posters on here can have a field day tearin that shit apart, but Ima just skip over to your second post.

Let me tell you somethin. Preach all you want, becuz I am happy and I am successful and I am clean. I really aint interested in hearing about if you consider me clean or not , or your predictions for my future. Im happier than i ever been in my life, Im content, Im satisfied, and most important, I know in my heart that I am absolutely clean, and I also know that i will never, ever go back to the life that I use to live when i was addicted to heroin, and thats all that matters.

Just for the record, The person who gotta say the kind of shit that you do to other people, is usually the person who is tryna mask their own insecurity by pointin fingers at others. Im 101% sure of myself and absolutely know that I aint got to fear none of the shit that your AA crystal ball is seein in my future, so keep flappin those gums, I aint worried.

It must suck to claim to be so happy with your program but still feel the need to put other people down who free themself from addiction in a different way than you chose to. I aint sure how good the program is workin for you if you got the attitude that you do. It seems like you got some problems with people who can be happy and succeed at gettin off drugs in a different way than you did. That dont sound too healthy to me. Im sorry that you are so negative. I hope you can mellow out and learn to stop bein so angry and judgmental in the future, trust me it will make you a lot less miserable.

Wasnt putting you down at all. Just stating the truth. I thought the same way as you when i was on the done and my first 9 treatments where i thought the same as you.


Sorry if you took it that way and by allergy i mean once i start i cant stop no matter which way i try it just aint gonna work.

Your not off drugs lacey... your on methadone!! Theyre maintaining you. Its fucking aweomse that you dont have to live [that skandalous fuckin life anymore like we all have... but when you come off the done like i did 3 timees its soooo much fucking different. I aint speakin from hearsay girl im speakin from experience and seein thousands of ppl try every which way to kick the dope and nothing working unless they workin a program. And no its not the only thing that works but its the only thing that works for me cause my thinking is fucked upp.

I meant no offense at all i just speakin the truth unless your a one in a million case but chance are you arent.

Do you plan on stayin on the done forever? What you gonna do when you gotta kick for a month? Then after that when all the chemicals in ur head are fucked up and ur depressed as ever. I been there and done it, it fucking sucks. Sorry if I came across that way but your doing the same in your posts . Some 16 year old kid is gonna read ur post on a HARM REDUCTION forum and take them for fact when theyre so incorrect, biased and delusional it aint even funny. AA has millions of members worldwide who it saved there life. Once u come off the done and u stay clean(which aint gonna happen less u change somethin) u can talk all the shit on AA u want..


Its like the sniffin oxy - sniffin dope - ill never use a needle - shootin dope cycle. It happens no matter how much fuckin willpower someone has. Im done this site blows now that the stamp thread is gone.

I use to love ur posts but u aint clean takin methadone everyday... Read your posts... Im clean but i take methadone everyday because ive tryed MY way without a maintence program or AA to stay clean and it never worked.Methadone is a drug!!! ahhh fuck ur clean off the needle but u aint clean off drugs!!! A pothehad, acid eatin hippie is cleaner then u! methadone is a fuckin hard opiate lol jesus

 

[New]

AA sucks at saving lives. That's why there is such a high turnover rate. If watching countless people relapse and die while propping up your own ego by predicting everyone else's future keeps you sober, so be it. But don't tell me it has to do with a religious program that was ineffective from day 1.

 

[Exploder]

I agree with a little of everything that most people have said. Yes the book says "rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path". Why I doubted such was when I realized I probably couldn't follow that path.

I strayed from the path after 3 years of seeing people in 3 or 4 different "intensive" programs get better and worse.

I saw people that got balls deep in the program relapse. I saw people that didnt do shit relapse. I saw people that nearly killed themselves get better without the 12 steps. I saw people get better with the 12 steps. In the end it seemed like people got better or worse and it wasn't through following (or not following) the program.

One of my ex's drank herself into kidney failure. Then one day decided she didn't want to do it any more. Now she drinks socially.

 

[cryan]

In Lacey's defense, I was on sub maintenance for a year after I failed at sobriety through NA. I am going to say something right now I have not admitted yet outside of my own brain. While on Suboxone I'd take short breaks (so itd clear out of my system) and take a few pills. Now that in itself, no big deal, cuz I had the subs to go back to. BUT I have done it a few times since being off subs as well. As much as I do admittedly hate it (sobriety, that is), I have been able to control it and am still sober today, RIGHT NOW.

Even if I do eventually become an addict again, the fact that I could use even once without falling back into addiction disproves your theory that all addicts can not pick up even once, or else will fail.

And I think this is the major flaw with NA/AA. It's the helpless attitude towards addiction, the total stigma that you will eventually fail, that discredits the program. But I've already posted about that. NOT that I didn't enjoy the community of likeminded people through NA. It did help very much, but overall, my recovery was all me with a LOT of support and pushing by my husband. For some it works, for most it doesn't, and thats pretty much how EVERYTHING works with us humans. What works for one individual don't always work for another.

Just wanted to throw that out there, and reiterate what has been said by others.

 

[jspun]

Lacey, a few things: I was on MMT for 6 years. Made my life productive, went back to school and became an RN- all on methadone. 135 mg max dose. Finally I tapered and my last dose was feb, 2008.

I consider you clean, and your story is inspirational in that you used once and stayed abstinent- I think if NA has a fault is that it instills guilt in people, so they go on self-destructive/ suicidal relapses, atleast thats my theory. People put too much emphasis on time instead of focusing on today.

People taking pain meds or other Rx drugs in time of need has always been sanctioned- remember these are all suggestions, not orders. There is a pamphlet called "in times of illness" that goes into this at length.

From someone that is connected to the decisions of the WSO- World Service Organization that meets every 2 years to develop the decisions, positions, what effects the group as a whole worldwide- they have released or are releasing a statement saying those on replacement therapy remaining compliant are considered clean, if I'm not mistaken.

Your are a member when you say you are. Same as when you are clean- people ideally aren't suppossed to preach, they are supposed to share what worked for them and listen in a non-judgemental manner.

AA doesn't know everything= they admit "we know only a little". More will be revealed- the point is NA/AA needs free thinkers now more than ever.

The treatment facilities- don't get me started. There is a treatment-industrial complex that people like Dr. Drew use for their own financial gain. It is to their advantage in places like that to convince you your an addict, keep you in aftercare, basically swindle you out of your money- when AA is free!

If you want to get clean- 12 step won't work. You need a willingness (not talking bout you Lacey- your a ray of hope that moderation might be feasible- I consider you clean- I know how methadone works- people in the program against it either 1.) never been on it so they parot what others say, 2.) Been on it, got locked up and had to quit cold turkey, 3.) Decided to stop because they took the medical advice of abovesaid idiots and jumped off rather than tappering. When you are pregnant YOU DO NOT WANT TO STOP. That is very, very dangerous for the featus- it can precipitate early labour and still born children- thats why pregnant women get prference on clinics with waitlists. There is little effect to the featus- and they can be weaned with little complications.

Point is if you need to get clean but can't- wake up, get a bag, get right, and keep going to meetings is a strategy you can try- my suggestion is to be honest and hang with the non-judgemental ones. Eventually, I believe if one of you is in that situation, you'll get a window of opportunity. Besides, if your a new commer, you are the most important person at the mtg, might as well keep your celebrity status going. LOL- but there is a benefit to going to meetings high, you'll get clean. The funny thing is, meetings used to kick in my nod.

This is a very important point: Addiction is a disease were self diagnosis is not only important, it is essential

I'm an addict and need meetings. I only talk about myself. Its a program of attraction and suggestions. When people tell you you got to do this and that or else, its time to tell them politely "fuck off."

I have seen scandalous fucked up dopefiends turn their life around- off the street. The only way one can say, and again they have to be sure they are adicts first- too many misdiagnosed people out their, especially among the young, they can't say it doesn't work unless they have worked the steps and are practicing the principles today. People put too much emphasis on time: especial cult figure like old timers who crave the adoration and worship. No ones perfect but those you have to stay away from. The quite oldtimer who reaches out- you can sense the good, see it in their lives. No ones perfect

Good job- it sounds like you are doing good. Harm reduction is supposed to include an option for moderation. The secret is that in Europe moderation has worked in several cases of former problem drinkers.

I just know I cant do it- waiting for you all to come up with a reliable method that works to restore one to moderate drinking, heroin use, coke use, ect... I haven't found a way so I don't use- but I still read about drugs and am commited to harm reduction.

Lacey, God Bless you and power to you for standing up and sharing your experience even though it contradicts NA dogma- that is being open minded truly (as in honesty, openmidedness, and willingness.) So everybody stop hating on Lacey and focus on your own damn recovery. Judging others is not a principal of the program.

My favorite saying: "NA works despite the people in it."

I can't use successfully yet (today) so I need NA.

Thats just me

 

[Khadijah]

Dubcity your truth aint the absolute truth. its true for YOU. It aint true for me, and it aint true for many of the other people i know.

For example...if without methadone, " i will be shooting dope" tell me why there has been many times that i had a problem with the Dr's office, they fucked up my script, etc, and i couldnt take my dose for a few days...and i had to go without it, completely opiate free for a day or two or 3, why wasnt i out shooting dope? why wasnt i runnin around like a chicken with my head cut off, lookin to cop somethin so I wouldnt get sick?

Why did i just deal with it and wait til i could get shit worked out and get my done becuz I aint the same addict I use to be? Why didnt i relapse, freak out cuz i wasnt able to handle not havin it? Its happened more than once and I dealt with it and waited til i got my script and that was it. I didnt go out and shoot dope and go back to dopefeen mode.

But even more important, if a person who aint on methadone/sub, and aint a member of NA cant get and stay clean? how do you explain my man? If the only reason people who dont do NA can stay off dope is methadone or sub, how do you explain his story? here it is: Me and him were both dope feens together sharin our habit til it got mad out of control. we both quit at the same time, september of last year. He went to a clinic and did the 60 day detox and got off it. Since then, he aint takin no methadone , sub, nothing. Dont even smoke weed or drink. He dont go to NA, he didnt go to rehab, he dont do shit. He just lives life, normal. And , to add to that?

All those times i was talkin about over the last year or so where about 5 times in that year I used dope? He did it with me. Except he WASNT on methadone, or nothing at all. We got high together, had our fun, and that was it. I was on done but he wasnt. he was able to get high every so often and forget about it, WITHOUT bein on any type of other drugs at all.

So if your excuse for me bein able to do that is that its "only becuz i was on methadone", wats the excuse for him?

Why aint he shooting dope, just like you are so damn certain I would be? By the way, both of us aint even doing the occasional thing these days. Im still on done, he still off it, and we still both dont use jack shit. Soo....explain that one?

The explanation is that the shit you believe, It just aint true for everybody yo. You got no idea how annoying the attitude is when you and other people say shit like you just KNOW about my life and the shit I do, or would do in a certain situation. especially becuz the situations that you claim to know the out come of, HAVE already happened to me, and i didnt react like that. So its mad disrespectful actin like you know this shit about other people and their life. You really dont--you only know the shit that works for YOU. You dont know wat works for me yo, and its just foolish to think you do. Its also one of the main reasons that so many people get turned off of NA and AA, becuz they tired of people gettin in their face actin like they know it all. it really makes the program look like shit and gives people just one more reason to avoid it.

Anyways. Just for the record, I aint on MMT. I dont like gettin into it on here. Becuz to be honest I feel embarassed and I dont want people to think of me as some type of , i dont know...I dont like feelin weak. But the truth is that Im scripted my methadone for pain management. Its a legit script before you say some shit about that--I been in more than one bad car accident, and over the past couple yrs i have also got seriously injured at one of my jobs. after that, i still kept workin a manual labor job and it made it even worse. I got the MRIs and the x rays and all that, and once i got off dope i was able to finally put some time to finally dealin with that instead of just shootin dope to cover up the pain. i could be on a different medication but i prefer the methadone, its the best painkiller IMO and becuz its so long lasting and cheap its perfect for me.

If i didnt have the Done, word bond, i would be part way disabled no joke. when i aint on it i cant even walk right without a severe limp. Even on it, i got problems doin shit like getting up out of my chair and shit like that, sometimes I need help to get up out of bed becuz i cant sit up on my own without extreme pain and thats ON the methadone feeling it thru my dose. If i wasnt on it, my life would be so fuckin miserable and my quality of life would be bullshit. On realy bad days, sometimes when I get up out of the swing on my porch I need to grab on to the cane that i usually use to push the swing, just to push myself up to a standing position. U can see why its a embarassment to me becuz I feel like it makes me weak and i just dont like seein myself that way, but the methadone is the shit that allows me to BE normal and not feel too much like im fuckin handicapped or some shit.

So yea, i really take offense to your assumptions about me, becuz you really dont know the whole story, or why Im on methadone, and so on.

And once again...yea, i AM clean. I aint using heroin, or abusing drugs. I aint a drug addict, I am DEPENDENT on methadone, i aint ADDICTED to it. And i know as a matter of fact that while many ignorant-ass people try to tell you otherwise, that the program explicitly says that a medication that is legitimatly prescribed by a doctor, that is used as prescribed, is completely outside of NA's program, and that NA members aint doctors. Yall aint qualified to judge whether or not somebody needs a certain medication OR whether or not they are "clean" or not becuz they are on painkillers that they NEED to live a normal life. I aint on MMT, i am on methadone becuz of chronic pain and a doctor prescribed it to me , KNOWING i am a ex-addict, and still felt that i have a legit enough problem that I needed this medication....

So it dont matter WTF misguided NA members got to say about it. I have heard at so many meetings, the long time old timers complaining about how so many members try to put people down for bein on MMT, SMT, or opiate painkillers, and how its wrong and it goes against the programs beliefs to judge people in that way. I have heard it over and over, from speakers at meetings, from the leaders of the meetings, that PEOPLE ON MAINTENANCE, OR PAINKILLERS, ARE CLEAN....So, whether or not YOU believe it, the program as it is written, does believe it, and its just the ignorant-ass mutha fuckas who like to pass judgement and feel better about themself who twist around the meaning. "But that aint fair...I dont take no medications at all, and im clean, so how come THEY get to be clean too if they are taking medications!?! Not fair!! Im cleaner than they are!! They cheating! they should have to do it MY WAY!"

Being an addict means your life is full of obsession with the drug. Bein clean is bein free of that obsession. If you are prescribed percocet and you take it like an addict, and you pop too many of them, and you run outta your script early, and you obsess over it and shit like that, you aint clean.

but if you take it as prescribed, and dont abuse it, and dont think about it on some drug addict shit like "my precious percocet", and dont treat it like that, dont think about it like that, aint got that obsession, then you ARE clean. it aint whether or not you take any prescribed medications that makes you clean its the attitude behind it.

Bein clean, its that your mind is free from the obsession and cravings and need for the drug, that you can finally feel and live like a normal person, like the person u were before u did drugs. And thats where Im at. I am clean. I dont give 2 shits wat anybody got to say about it. I am free from the addiction. I dont do heroin no more. My life aint about drugs, OR about staying off drugs--my life is about my LIFE, and livin it. i aint GOT to focus on stayin clean becuz its how i naturally live now--my thought process aint nothign like it use to be. My mind and the way it works is completely different than how it was. Thinkin about dope aint even somethin that is ever on my mind. I aint suffering or struggling to stay clean. it aint even hard work, honestly. It gets easier every day, Im such a different person with a different way of thinking and being. I am off heroin , I dont abuse any drugs at all, my mind is free from the obsession with using and all the addictive thinkin patterns and all that shit, and I am on methadone, and thats clean. So please, spare me the fuckin judgements.

Its really great that NA works for you. But its incredibly ignorant and disrespectful of other peoples success to say the shit that u saying. Becuz it just aint true. It may be true FOR YOU...It may be true for the people in the meetings you go to,. but it just aint like that for everyone. Period, straight up.

 

[Evil Weevil]

I've been sober now for almost 4 years...in a row even! I credit my sobriety to AA and my higher power. The best advice my sponsor gave me was to concentrate on working MY program. You get in deep shit when you start working someone else's.

Lacey, I'm happy that you're embracing a life of sobriety, especially since you're second fiddle to that little kid you're carrying now. And I don't believe you're not sober if you're taking Rx meds to help with your addiction/whatever. I have severe panic disorder, which I treated for years with good old ethyl alcohol. But now I take a low dose of clonazepam prescribed by a physician. I don't feel any less sober.

 

[Khadijah]

^^Now that is some shit i can get with. I aint got no problem with ppl in the program who got the attitude that you do and i think that the program needs more ppl like you and maybe they could stop turning so many people off. Thanks for ur post. If for every self righteous militant 12-step drone out there had a opposite twin of a logical, tolerant understanding person like u, maybe there would be a lot less ppl with so much issues with the program.

that shit u said about workin YOUR program--Best shit I ever heard from somebody in NA/AA. Youll never lose doin it that way.