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SCOTUS Pledge of Allegance Case (merged)

SoHiAllTheTime said:
With no belief in god you should be able to laugh off the whole under god thing and not even worry about it. Skip over the words. Whatever. It shouldnt matter.

yeah, but when the whole "under god thing" is placed on government issued notes, its no laughing matter.

I honestly could care less, it's never bothered me. But I have to take the side of athiests on this one. Even if god is used in a general one size fits all term, it still puts religion in government, a place it should not be, according to the constitution.
 
Enlitx said:
Whether it applies to a specific religion or not, God still denotes religion. Referring to god is still too specific in that it alienates atheists who are just as much a part of this country as others.

You're making a case for a constituitional arguement that simply doesn't exist. Go reread the amnedment, and read some law scholars opinions on it. The constitution doesn't protect us againt alienation. It protects us against the formation of a state sponsored church. Saying "god", not even "capital G god" is not religion, its a vauge pander to the "spirituality" that a majority of Americans identify with. This is not a constitutional guarantee, its a choice made by the legistalure, and that is where such trivial matters ought to be handled. If you cant get your congressmen to listen to you, then its time to bite the bullet, accept that this isn't burger king, and that you can't have it your way. Society functions on consensus in exchange for comfort and protection. Sometimes you wont be in the majority. Suck it up.

Why can't clamerous malcontents like this asshole, crappy-father try parenting instead of forcing his minority opinion on a group, especially in something so esoteric and trivial. If he wants to make a constitutional, he should uproot his distant, neglected daughter to a school with mandatory drug testing for exttra curiculars, get her high, and make his stand with that test case.
 
^True. but if you dont believe in any god why would you even care? Why ruin it for the vast majority of others who do believe in god by having it removed? Why cant some people just let thing go and fight the bigger fights?

Because some people in this country are so fucking bored and starved for attention that they will sit and think of things to bitch about and go to court over. They love hearing their name on the news and being the "cause" of issues that no one truly gives a flying fuck about...

Come to think of it, there is a laundry list of people on BL that are similar...:)
 
As a sidenote, though I feel that the phrase should be removed, I am happy that the Court chose to sidestep the issue of its Constitutionality at this point...

As a political matter, getting rid of Bush and his ilk is priority #1 and we don't need any more canards stirring up the backwoods fundies....gay marriage has already stirred them up enough, but it's an oblique enough "God" issue that they still MIGHT not be sufficiently motivated to turn away from playing with snakes and diddling their first cousins for the moment to go out and vote in droves.

Throw in a decision removing the phrase from the Pledge at this point in time, though, and you've REALLY got 'em thinking that it's jihad time. Gay marriage is one thing, but in the fundies' minds it's still confined to "them Godless liberal northeastern states" and not on their doorsteps...removing the phrase from the Pledge at this time is coming right into their TV room.

The field is not sufficiently to the progressives' advantage to pick this fight in a direct assault right now, so it's best left for another day.
 
Originally posted by SoHiAllTheTime
^True. but if you dont believe in any god why would you even care? Why ruin it for the vast majority of others who do believe in god by having it removed? Why cant some people just let thing go and fight the bigger fights? With no belief in god you should be able to laugh off the whole under god thing and not even worry about it. Skip over the words. Whatever. It shouldnt matter.


your arguments go both ways. if you, and others, do believe in god, you should be content with that - why does it matter to you?

alasdair
 
The ammendment in question also does not guarantee an enforced bias of religion. Religion relies on faith, not on the petty trappings of spoken words. Faith does not rely on the trappings of a pledge. Faith lies with an individual.
 
atlas said:
You're making a case for a constituitional arguement that simply doesn't exist. Go reread the amnedment, and read some law scholars opinions on it. The constitution doesn't protect us againt alienation. It protects us against the formation of a state sponsored church. Saying "god", not even "capital G god" is not religion, its a vauge pander to the "spirituality" that a majority of Americans identify with. This is not a constitutional guarantee, its a choice made by the legistalure, and that is where such trivial matters ought to be handled. If you cant get your congressmen to listen to you, then its time to bite the bullet, accept that this isn't burger king, and that you can't have it your way. Society functions on consensus in exchange for comfort and protection. Sometimes you wont be in the majority. Suck it up.

Why can't clamerous malcontents like this asshole, crappy-father try parenting instead of forcing his minority opinion on a group, especially in something so esoteric and trivial. If he wants to make a constitutional, he should uproot his distant, neglected daughter to a school with mandatory drug testing for exttra curiculars, get her high, and make his stand with that test case.

By acknowledging god it becomes an endorsed religion, even though it does not specify which one. Some religions don't believe in a god, but many gods or even things not related to god, like grass spirits or what have you. Referring to god specifies it and makes us a monotheistic nation. The point of the amendment was to keep religion WAY out of government, and yet people still try and make excuses about why it should be there. Let religion be private, and don't complain when people wish to keep our government out of it.
 
US Supreme Court Avoids Contitutional Question, Throws Out "Under God" Case

[size=big]Top Court Rejects Atheist's Challenge to Pledge[/size]
Mon Jun 14, 2004 05:04 PM ET

By James Vicini
[size=big]W[/size]ASHINGTON (Reuters) - An atheist's attempt to remove the words "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance failed on Monday when the U.S. Supreme Court avoided the constitutional question and ruled he could not bring the challenge on behalf of his daughter.

The ruling in one of the most important cases of the term was based on the technicality that Californian Michael Newdow could not bring the case because he did not have legal control over the now 10-year-old girl. It left open the possibility of future challenges.

The 8-0 decision by the justices overturned a controversial ruling by a U.S. appeals court in California that reciting the phrase amounted to a violation of church-state separation.

The ruling came on Flag Day and on the 50th anniversary of the addition of the words "under God" to the pledge. The U.S. Congress adopted the June 14, 1954, law in an effort to distinguish America's religious values and heritage from those of communism, which is atheistic.

Three court members -- Chief Justice William Rehnquist and Justices Sandra Day O'Connor and Clarence Thomas -- said they would uphold the words "under God" as constitutional.

"Reciting the pledge, or listening to others recite it, is a patriotic exercise, not a religious one; participants promise fidelity to our flag and our nation, not to any particular God, faith or church," Rehnquist said.

O'Connor agreed. "Certain ceremonial references to God and religion in our nation are the inevitable consequence of the religious history that gave birth to our founding principles of liberty," she said.

Both supporters and opponents expressed disappointment the Supreme Court avoided the key constitutional issue. They predicted it would arise again and have to be decided.

A disappointed Newdow, an emergency room doctor who has a law degree and acted as his own attorney, said he hoped the ruling at least would spark interest in what he called grossly unfair U.S. child custody laws.

NEWDOW FIGHTING SYSTEM

"I'm fighting this entire system. In a couple months I will be in the family courts arguing that this entire system is unconstitutional," he said by telephone from his home near Sacramento, California

The girl's mother, Sandra Banning, a born-again Christian, said she had exclusive legal custody of the girl under a state court order. She supported her daughter saying the pledge.
The court's majority opinion said Newdow lacked the right to bring the challenge because Banning has sole legal custody and is authorized to exercise legal control over her daughter.

"When hard questions of domestic relations are sure to affect the outcome, the prudent course is for the federal court to stay its hand rather than reach out to resolve a weighty question of federal constitutional law," Justice John Paul Stevens wrote for the majority.

Millions of American students every day "pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

California requires the pledge to be recited every day at public elementary schools, although no child has to join in.

"The justices ducked this constitutional issue today, but it is likely to come back in the future," said the Rev. Barry Lynn of the group Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

Kevin Hasson, president of the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, which supported the reference to God in the pledge, said, "You win some, you lose some and some get rained out."

Read Original
 
^
but at least were two opinions written here. now we know which way o'connor, rehnquist, and thomas are leaning. the question is whether scalia, having given a big fuck to the public only a month ago, will again recuse himself from a pledge case. i think he probably will.
 
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