Salvinorin A and hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrine (HPBCD)

[lysergication]

I'm interested since a long time in a method that would allow us to use S. divinorum orally effectively. I read about HPBCD in the 25I thread and wonder how exactly I'd try this method for Salvia.

I've read about the two others thread talking about this but couldn't find enough informations to practically make it. Maybe because I don't understand completely the procedure.

If I've understood it correctly, the size of the host molecule has to match with the size of the guest molecule.

How can I calculate this ?

And the amount of HPBCD has to be calculated accurately from with the molecule it has to encapsulate to form a stable complex. This I don't understand. Why can't you just use a lot of cyclodextrin if the guest-host sizes are matching ?

Is it possible to form a stable complex with a salvia extract made from a simple solvent extraction ?

IIRC we could use soap/detergent to complexify 25I, would it be possible with salvinorin A ?

 

[mgrady3]

I believe the idea you are thinking of is a lot more complex then you assume.
Its not simply mix these two chemicals together and you get one embedded in the other.
but maybe that is all that's needed - reading the 25I thread is hard as its a bit disjointed

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are wanting to do, could you rephrase your main question a bit so its more clear what you are asking?

 

[Nagelfar]

Apparently HPβCD is what they put in Febreze to bind to aerosol odorants.

 

[lysergication]

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are wanting to do, could you rephrase your main question a bit so its more clear what you are asking?

Thanks for your interest.

Basically, I'd like to make, without lab equipment, a stable complex of salvia extract (since I cant' make pure salvinorin A without lab equipment) with HPBCD or another cyclodextrin. It seems that this would give something that will be orally effective.

 

[mgrady3]

Is Salvia not active orally already?
meaning - can you not just chew the leaves (or put the powder or whatever extract into your mouth) and let it absorb sublingually?
The onset would be nothign like smoking it but I don't see why you'd need another chemical to make the salvinorin-a become active orally.

I guess there's a difference between sublingual and oral administration - so if you're seeking something that you can take in pill/capsule/edible form then I can't help you out much as I don't know enough about the metabolism of salvinorin-a when passing through the gut; however I was under the impression you could take it sublingually.

 

[lysergication]

Salvinorin A is poorly soluble in water. It does works sublingually but it's not that convinient. Maybe it's possible to make a product easier to use and more effective with HPBCD ?

 

[sekio]

If you can't figure out how to decide if one molecule "fits" in another, why are you posting in Advanced Drug Discussion?

.. sorry but I'm going to be closing this. The answer is obvious: make a model? Figure out how big the "pocket" of your cyclodextrin is, and how big your guest molecule is.

I think all this hoom hah about HPBCD is silly. It's not some fucking magical solubiliser. Haven't people made acetone/alcohol tinctures of salvinorin for oral use? Are these not effective enough? (I'd imagine the same solvent solution from e.g. Sativex could be used to deliver salvinorin.)

How about you try dissolving your salvia extract in dish soap, or Tween 80?

 

[lysergication]

If you can't figure out how to decide if one molecule "fits" in another, why are you posting in Advanced Drug Discussion?

I don't know where else I'd have ask this technical question on bluelight but I kind of see why this thread doesn't really meet the ADD standards.

Thank you for the few infos nonetheless, the tween 80 thing looks interesting.

 

[Solipsis]

Alcoholic tinctures are surely reported to work, but who knows how effective this actually is? I certainly don't.
Since we like to call ourselves a scientifically oriented bunch I don't see why it would be such a dumb idea to want to apply HPBCD to salvinorin. Initially I thought in my vague memory that the salvinorin molecule was much larger but after checking I think it could be okay. Of course there is a difference between a very hydrophobic compound that fits into the HPBCD pocket in whatever direction and a molecule that needs to stick into it in a particular direction like this ruthenium compound here ({trans-1,4-Bis[(4-pyridyl)ethenyl]benzene}(2,2‘-bipyridine)ruthenium(II) Complex):

Sexy isn't it

It's probably engineered to be able to get guided in. My point is though, that I think it should work with salvinorin, even if only when it goes head-first with the furanyl moiety (or something like that). Salvinorin is generally hydrophobic so I don't really see what the problem is. And I don't think it's very polite to shoot down an idea like this either. And in some way, please explain why is HPBCD not a magical "solubilizer" i.e. surfactant even if there is size exclusion and hydrophobicity criteria. For those compounds that are not readily dissolved in water, and also: like NBOMe compounds salvinorin is also notorious for failing to produce desired effects. Maybe this is mostly with smoking but I am not aware of proof that the same difficulty does not arise with EtOH tincture.

If salvinorin does not fit very easily into cyclodextrin, it may need another molarity higher than salvinorin's and also perhaps longer vigorous shaking or vortexing (which can be done by holding it against an electric toothbrush - which I can't help but find both funny and clever as some BLers solution).

 

[lysergication]

If salvinorin does not fit very easily into cyclodextrin, it may need another molarity higher than salvinorin's and also perhaps longer vigorous shaking or vortexing (which can be done by holding it against an electric toothbrush - which I can't help but find both funny and clever as some BLers solution).

tregar used a 9 parts of HBPCD for 1 part of 25I. How much parts of HPBCD do you think would be necessary for Salvinorin A ?

thanks for your reply

edit : I tried the traditional quid method and found it quite effective, actually. I did it with 18 leaves rolled together in a quid hold during ~30min without swallow the saliva.

 

[Jesusgreen]

Edit: Wanted to merge a PD thread into this but apparently this is over in ADD :D

 

[cryptix420]

I'm dying to try oral salvia. I've heard it put that burning the salvia angers the gods, resulting in a more harsh trip. I hear oral is where it's at.

Not to go off track, but I'm curious how HPBCD would work with making aniracetam water soluble. It's a pain having to mix it with olive oil to make it effective.

 

[Nagelfar]

SBEβCD (brand name Captisol) is a non-nephrotoxic version of HPβCD and may work better as it is meant to be more optimized as a 'delivery system'. The Captisol website has a order form to send out 20 gram samples for free to your address, I know some who have ordered already.

I believe the idea you are thinking of is a lot more complex then you assume.
Its not simply mix these two chemicals together and you get one embedded in the other.
but maybe that is all that's needed

Seeing as HPβCD binds readily as an aerosol with free floating airborne odorants, my hopes are high that simple concentrations in a solution with desired chemical may have them 'captured' by something such as SBEβCD.

My interest in this topic has been piqued after reading how they are using SBEβCD to get Imatinib to cross the BBB to effect the opioid system as per this article.

This may have rekindled that old worn idea of what an attempt with something such as loperamide would do if it had a simple vehicle for crossing the BBB. I'm not as worried as much as once with the potential dopaminergic neurotoxicity of the aforementioned compound, seeing as US Patent 3714159, 4th page, table 1, 18th entry, gives an actual analgesic dose for loperamide as 80mg/kg (e.g. it does have some effect at crossing the BBB already). I would think, if a cyclodextrin could get something that is actively transported out of the brain, like loperamide, across, it would have an immediate effect (a subject 'rush' if you will) and be quickly again transported out of the brain (in this case, by the ATP-binding cassette transporter) once it is 'disconnected'/'dislodged' from the cyclodextrin or the cyclodextrin is metabolized. It may be rather safe in such a way even in large doses. However, note that this is pure speculative postulation.