Safety of e-cigarettes?

[newmember00]

So, I've been using e-cigarettes for a couple years, but just recently dropped traditional cigarettes altogether - it's been about three weeks now. Overall, they seem to be more safe than tobacco IMO. However, I feel like I'm consuming more nicotine than I was when smoking. I use my e-cig very frequently, whereas a traditional "smoke break" was only every hour or so. What are your thoughts on e-cigs? Thanks!

Edit: If this is in the wrong section, feel free to move it. Not sure where it should have gone.

 

[bit_pattern]

Same thing happened to me with nicotine lozenges, became more addicted to larger doses. Still better than smoking though.

 

[Maya]

OP I found this article for you:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/249784.php

When I used to smoke, I only tried E-Cigs a few times but I never really got hooked into it. As per the article, it is not known yet whether E-cigs are safer than actual cigarettes so I would suggest that you try to quit smoking as a better health alternative.

 

[coelophysis]

If you feel like you're doing too much nicotine then lower your dosage. Or even try zero mg juice.
Besides the nicotine you're dealing with Vegetable Glycerin and Proplyene Glycol. Both can be found in fog machines, and nebulizers and inhalers. The only other chemical would be the flavoring. To me it's a no brainer that it's less harmful than real cigarettes that have 1000s of chemicals in them instead of 2 well known ones that have never hurt anyone and are often used for people with lung conditions.
It's definitely the lesser of two evils.

 

[Jabberwocky]

If you feel like you're doing too much nicotine then lower your dosage. Or even try zero mg juice.
Besides the nicotine you're dealing with Vegetable Glycerin and Proplyene Glycol. Both can be found in fog machines, and nebulizers and inhalers. The only other chemical would be the flavoring. To me it's a no brainer that it's less harmful than real cigarettes that have 1000s of chemicals in them instead of 2 well known ones that have never hurt anyone and are often used for people with lung conditions.
It's definitely the lesser of two evils.

I agree about lowering dosage. I LOVE vaping, I never ever smoke cigarettes anymore (I do smoke tobacco via pipe, several times daily. Cigarettes, even unfiltered, are unappealing to me now which is fantastic after decade+ smoking them)
I find that I tend to vape a ton though, particularly when online or watching a movie, it's just easy for me to not pay attn until I get light-headed. I've found that using lower % nicotine liquids was much more enjoyable to let me vape as I wanted to.
There's certainly some valid concerns for nicotine intake, but - IMO, and in many ppl's eyes - the nicotine itself isn't much more of a problem than caffeine. Smoking tobacco is the lion's share of what makes nico habits bad (furthermore, on the topic of addiction, pure nicotine isn't remotely as addictive as tobacco, regardless of MOA. This is because tobacco, while being a legit nicotine delivery system, also has maoi's [maob-i's, iirc, but been a bit since I read into this], and is far, far more reinforcing than isolated nicotine)

I've been blown away at the explosive growth of the ecig industry lately, there's new shops everywhere in my area and I'm able to get the 'e-go'-style batteries/carto/charger kits at local shops, for same price I'd pay via the web like 6mo ago.

[edit to add: http://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_...omparison_of_the_effects_of_ecigarette_vapor/
I read that this afternoon; am not saying it's anything definitive by any stretch because clearly it's not, but just food for thought I guess]

 

[isthisincognito]

^ Yeah, it does seem the lesser of two evils. As a Nicotine Replacement Therapy, I'm not sure how effective it is, most people I know who have gone over to e-cigs just sit and puff away all night, whereas before they were smoking once every 1-2 hours.

In regards to PG, one of the suspension ingredients in some e-cigs - Also used in food, medicines, and as said above fog machines etc.

This is from a 1942 Times article (I think) about propylene glycol "PG" - can't track anything else down, so can someone debunk this?

A powerful preventive against pneumonia, influenza and other respiratory diseases may be promised by a brilliant series of experiments conducted during the last three years at the University of Chicago’s Billings Hospital. Dr. Oswald Hope Robertson last week was making final tests with a new germicidal vapor—propylene glycol—to sterilize air.

If the results so far obtained are confirmed, one of the age-old searches of man will finally achieve its goal.

This venture gave promising results, but all such research lapsed for another decade. Within the last few years, several research groups (notably the University of Pennsylvania’s new Air-Borne Disease Laboratories) again began testing various sprays. Many chemicals were found to kill airborne micro-organisms quickly, even in concentrations as low as one gram of chemical per 500 cu. ft. of air.

Trouble was that all these air germicides smelled bad, or were toxic, or irritated the respiratory tract. Dr. Robertson’s propylene glycol vapor is odorless, tasteless, nontoxic, non-irritating, cheap, highly bactericidal.

Its discovery was accidental. Dr. Robertson and his colleagues were trying out another possible germicide—a detergent or “soapless soap” (similar to Dreft, Aerosol and other products widely sold for household and industrial use). Water solutions of the detergent were only mildly effective, so the researchers tried solutions of detergents in propylene glycol, which is a sort of thin glycerine.

Results were much better. Then the researchers found that the propylene glycol itself was a potent germicide. One part of glycol in 2,000,000 parts of air would—within a few seconds—kill concentrations of air-suspended pneumococci, streptococci and other bacteria numbering millions to the cubic foot.

How did it work? Respiratory disease bacteria float about in tiny droplets of water breathed, sneezed and coughed from human beings. The germicidal glycol also floats in infinitesimally small particles.

Calculations showed that if droplet had to hit droplet, it would take two to 200 hours for sterilization of sprayed air to take place. Since sterilization took place in seconds, Dr. Robertson concluded that the glycol droplets must give off gas molecules which dissolve in the water droplets and kill the germs within them.

Dr. Robertson placed groups of mice in a chamber and sprayed its air first with propylene glycol, then with influenza virus. All the mice lived. Then he sprayed the chamber with virus alone. All the mice died.

Propylene glycol is harmless to man when swallowed or injected into the veins. It is also harmless to mice who have breathed it for long periods. But medical science is cautious—there was still a remote chance that glycol might accumulate harmfully in the erect human lungs which, unlike those of mice, do not drain themselves.

So last June Dr. Robertson began studying the effect of glycol vapor on monkeys imported from the University of Puerto Rico’s School of Tropical Medicine. So far, after many months’ exposure to the vapor, the monkeys are happy and fatter than ever. Dr. Robertson does not expect mankind to live, like his monkeys, continuously in an atmosphere of glycol vapor; but it should be most valuable in such crowded places as schools and theaters, where most respiratory diseases are picked up.

As a newspaper article, It is just anecdotal.

 

[Jabberwocky]

^ Yeah, it does seem the lesser of two evils. As a Nicotine Replacement Therapy, I'm not sure how effective it is, most people I know who have gone over to e-cigs just sit and puff away all night, whereas before they were smoking once every 1-2 hours

I'd wager that if it weren't, we'd probably have an inkling of that by now- at least a plausible theory on why it may be bad long-term when short term seems incredibly benign compared to 'analog'(real) cigarettes.
I also notice what you say re puffing away, I'm sure my nicotine levels are sky-high compared to when I smoked cigarettes... I've got a couple theories on this, actually 'thoughts' is more apt:
- they lend themselves to the "ocd mindset" which tends to run higher in smokers
- there's little immediate penalty (perhaps no long-term but jury's still out there) to smoking too much, short of a head rush from too much nico; seldom too unpleasant and doesn't do much to change subconscious, vape-too-much behavior on later sessions,
- there's only a partial replacement from cigarettes: while I'd actually prefer a few min w/ my vape than a cigarette (don't even enjoy regular cigs at all anymore, actually), they're still not giving everything that long-term smokers got out of smoking, namely maoiB's. THIS is an area I'm very interested and will probably google on this eve now that I'm thinking of it, but there's certainly something missing by smoking pure nicotine as compared to tobacco.
[edit: on this^last point, I meant my interest is in finding what's up w/ eliquids that have "tobacco extract" instead of pure nicotine, my bad for being unclear. There's little to look into wrt why nico is not a true replacement to tobacco, as a pubmed search will show how poor nicotine is at reinforcement compared to nicotine+maoi's)

 

[isthisincognito]

I found a small Biography of Dr Robertson from NAS online (National Academy of Science) with references. http://www.nasonline.org/publications/biographical-memoirs/memoir-pdfs/robertson-oswald.pdf#PAGE=16

There's a few mentions to propylene glycol with references to the publications in 1942, and then a reference to toxicity tests of Propylene Glycol and Triethylene glycol on rats and monkeys in 1947 with further references to Triethylene Glycol as a germicide.

I post this for reference purposes.

 

[bit_pattern]

I bought a kit recently, I gave it away because I'm kind of addicted to oral nicotine now (nicotine lozenges). The vapour irritated the back of my throat a fair bit, I was probably susceptible to noticing it because I've been smoking very little due to the lozenges, but it was clear that the vapour didn't have anything close to the same level of bronchial congestion. I wuld be very wary about declaring them "safe" or "healthy" but I'm still convinced they're not as unsafe or as unhealthy as smoking. I gave mine to someone who is trying to quit but still smokes, he gave me a few hundred nicotine chewing gum pieces in return which I thought was a good swap considering our circumstances. if he takes up the nicotine vapour over smoking then I think that would be a real win.

Can definitely realte to the OP in respect to consuming a LOT more nicotine with the vape pens. It was one of the things that put me off, I'd be puffing th moment I woke up (didn't ahve to go outside) and even puffing on the train or in calss etc. Not cool IMO.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I think I may try that (lozenges/gums), but they're sooo f'ing expensive!!! Any reco's for affordably priced solutions, cuz CVS/w.mart gouge you on that shit :/

I actually have no vaporizor right now, as I got into an 'altercation' of sorts (very minimal, nobody got too hurt was just a big scene) at a bar last week, but in the shuffle my vaporizor got fuct, and now I'm unsure whether to buy a new setup, just man-up and say fuck nicotine, or - as bit's post just got me thinking- find a new source that's even gentler than the vapo's are. I'm unable to go back to cigarettes at this point, but have upped the amount of raw tobacco I smoke through my 'old man' wooden pipe (have probably been doing rips of pure tobacco every ~45-90min, daily, since my vapo broke )

 

[coelophysis]

Try reading about Swedish Snus

 

[ebola?]

it is not known yet whether E-cigs are safer than actual cigarettes

They would have to be dramatically safer than conventional cigarettes, as burning plants emit a smorgasbord of aromatic hydrocarbons that are highly carcinogenic. E-cig fluid manufacturers would need to add carcinogens on purpose to match that.

=LaikaTo me it's a no brainer that it's less harmful than real cigarettes that have 1000s of chemicals in them instead of 2 well known ones

This is not a good way of thinking about the matter. Eg, broccoli contains thousands of chemicals too.

compared to 'analog'(real) cigarettes.

Heh, e-cigs are technically analog too, as they don't process discretely codified information.

ebola

 

[Jabberwocky]

heh, loved your post until the snide bs at the end ( who am I kidding, i loved that too lol. But I do dig the 'analog/digital' terminology applied to these as shorthand )

 

[bit_pattern]

I think I may try that (lozenges/gums), but they're sooo f'ing expensive!!!

Yeah it's criminal. But with the taxation regime in Australia pushing a packet of 20 cigarettes up to a minimum of $12 for the cheap nasty brands it means they've hit about price parity and can be even cheaper than cigs if you buy in bulk

 

[N0 W4RN1NG]

You guys have it lovely - 20 Marlboros will set you back almost $18 USD in some parts of NYC!

 

[GoooMz]

I switched fully for 2 months to one of those bigger tanks, the one that looks like a stogie. As a pack a day smoker experiencing that change I know it was the healthier option regardless of who doctor such and such is getting paid to research for. The cravings weren't all that bad with the constant nicotine source, it was really just doing anything else (IE drinking, rolling (SR was open last year(RIP)), etc) when you want a cig.

as far as short term benefits go its highly noticeable within the first month, starting at week one repairing your cilia and coughing out shit that you don't want to be in your mouth. by week two I could smell again (hard to really notice how much cigs take this away until you get it back, and taste subsequently follows) and by week 3 there wasn't any shortness of breath even after a couple flights of stairs (though this wasnt a huge issue as I am in my early 20's. Im assuming this only gets worse). As of now I'm back on the smokes but it was a decent run, still ended up saving money due to NYS sin taxes on cigs, which are officially at dick sucking prices.

TL;DR: fuck legislation that is preventative on actions that could 'hypothetically' happen. I don't buy it, and if they really gave a shit about smokers health they would see these things as part of the 'recovery process'.

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

Close to 3 months I've stopped smoking cigs, got my 2 small black cigar looking e-cigs, they came with cartridges with flavours in the cotton but no nicotine, because Canada won't allow it, you gotta buy the liquid seperately (so fucking dumb). The e-cigs' quality turned out to be great though, I know people with the big fat ones that work really great at first end up breaking over and over again. I just get the liquid at the store that recently opened in my town (pretty damn popular too in this province where people smoke more than all others (30% of people or so, still).

One issue I have though is, is it propylene glycol and/or glycerine (it's the ingredient(s) in the liquid other than the nicotine + flavour liquid they add in in the back of the store) could cause the back of my throat to always produce mucus/be sticky, it's difficult to get together and spit out unlike a disgusting black cig morning spit. Does PG cause that to any of you or my lungs/throat/system is just cleaning up still and rejecting garbage I smoked in for 11 years away?

3 months in 5 days, the advantages of not smoking cigs anymore are supposed to start showing a lot now, I remember succeeding in stopping cigs for 8 months with patches back when I had no blood pressure issues from them (when I got over 28 I couldn't wear a 21mg patch for a whole day+night, made my heart beat so hard heh, I guess it's more pulse issues than blood pressure issues). I already noticed having more tolerance to long walks than I used to since hell, since I was too old to play in Junior AAA baseball (20 y/o), stopped doing any sport right afterwards. Although I still get some chest pains and stuff, I tell myself it's my alveoli getting used to expand more than they used to for the last 11 years, yeah, I started late, at 22, everyone was like "damn you're stupid" heh, even smokers, but losing the prospect of making money playing baseball (was in the draft A level minor league but wasn't picked up, guess they didn't like catchers that had over 25 caught base stealers in his 3 junior leagues at the second base....anyway). My spits are no more brown though, they were black and not only in the morning when I was still putting down 9-12 dollars a day on that shit. Only problem is yeah, I seem to intake more nicotine and my heart doesn't like it (slightly high BP below 140/100, I go every couple days to my mom and pop pharmacy where the technicians take it like doctors, not those machines made for selling blood pressure pills, and I always clock around 137/89 and pulses between 70 to 110, but I'm also wondering if lots of nicotine could be causing more PVC's (mostly harmless feelings of your heart skipping a beat and coming back with a vengeance so you feel it.

I wasn't scared of cancer, nobody in my family except 1 cousin (who didn't die, it was non-hodgkin's lymphoma, stage 3 first time, got into remission for 9 years, then it came back, but they took out some bad lymph nodes and he's fine but all this to say) cancer is not something common in my families (both sides), but heart disease is, especially my paternal grandmother, she's on 4-5 heart medication, i told her to ask for xanax so her heart gets less stress from circumstances heh, but yeah, it was my heart, which cigs hurt a bunch too. Which runs into a last question : is heart disease from cigarettes only due to nicotine? I was thinking not, as in if you develop emphysema, which I think I have a small case of, which is what really got me to want to stop, but i couldnt, e-cigs have been a saviour there too, not only for my wallet, feeling oxygen clouding my lungs again is great, your heart would struggle more to oxygenate your body if your lungs are deficient, through hardcore asthma like most people get to emphysema like I have a small case of, which apparently according to my GP, wasn't too late to reverse after 3 years where I had 2 breathing capacities tests a year + I got some nodules that were detected in 2007 that are called micro-nodules, from 2007 to 2010 my lung doctor had me take control CT's to see if anything was growing and they weren't, but I had to take a CT scan due to an unrelated condition of the chest (get proof that delatestryl which was scripted to me for really really low testosterone gave me small manboobs, unnoticable under a shirt, but really hard and painful cysts under them, the non-regular way the cysts are (not right under my nipple) made doctors second guess a bunch, had a ultrasound, then x-ray then CT, got some anti-estrogens, all is back to normal, almost, cysts still there, but reduced and not painful, got back my man nipples and disappearance of manboobs...so now I can bring the proof to a surgeon, who will charge me 100 dollars for pictures to take and send to the health ministry so they can see the proof themselves (the health ministry doctors...like my doctors can't make a decision themselves) and because it was caused by medication, i'll have all remaining "breasty" tissue removed along with the cysts.

Sorry for going all the way on why I decided to smoke, but the array of physical problems I was under before I took this one giant step, yeah it's e-cigs, but I noticed that I vape less and less compared as to when I switched, too. And I got no one else to discuss this with. I even miss appointments with specialists (like how my lung doctor wanted to see me for the micro-nodules have gained size since 2010, well 2 of them and one grew from 6 to 9mm, I'm starting to think they should do something and look up if it's problematic, but the asshole didn't want to do that with the 6mm nodules way back in 2007-2010 where I was taking so many control CT scans just to be told nothing changed and decided well, I had enough radiation from that machine made by the evil GE (although that machine is useful to save lives, unlike lots of things they do, like their mark 1 nuke power plants). But I'm gonna call back (now 3 weeks later) and invent a bullshit reason. I hate my lung doctor, I'll tell him, wanna guess why my nodules didn't grow from 2007 to 2010 ? "I was smoking weed everyday then". Only 1 one out of 3 didn't grow, I'm not panicking yet, nevermind the size of this post

tl;dr Propylene glycol/glycerine solution they use for e-liquid, does it get stuck in the back of anyone's throat here and make them produce mucus or is that just my lungs and throat cleaning themselves out of the shit I've thrown at em for 11 years(even after 3 months soon?) There is another question in there, but not the main question regarding e-cigs/liquid. Otherwise the things are helping me and served as a wake up call for my overall health.

 

[DrGreenthumb]

Try a different flavour or brand of juice, I only had a nasty feeling in my throat from a sweet mango flavour. Menthol might help clear your chest a bit. Glycerin seems to produce more condensation, PG can be a bit more irritating.

I bought some glycerin from a pharmacy & use it to dilute my liquids, it makes it a bit smoother & obviously less strong. My nicotine use went up when I switched to e-cigs, I think you need to start on high strength fluids & have more nicotine than before at first, but I think it'll be easier to taper with different strength liquids.

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

There's an e-cig/e-liquid store in my town, but they sell all the same brand, just many different flavours. Another different store from another chain is also in my city but it's a 50 minute drive away (this city is really large in size, but only 200 000 people), I used the very last "cig-fulls" of the brand over there which comes in a clear bottle.

Some days I have none of that mucus in the back of my throat which sometimes when spat was brownish, so I imagine my lungs are still cleaning themselves up, I thought that at around 3 months the cleaning up process was over, oh well, the chest pains have gone (it was one of the reason I had the most difficulty to stop smoking, the ciliary linings re-growing inside your lungs apparently hurts a lot for some people and it's what causes those chest pains. At least I'm feeling what was feeling like emphysema developing reversing a little, apparently when emphysema is at a light stage it can be reversed, I hope it does, and it seems like it.