Safer Use of Stimulants FAQ revised

[ebola?]

Oral magnesium supplements combine magnesium with another substance such as a salt. Examples of magnesium supplements include magnesium oxide, magnesium sulfate, and magnesium carbonate. Elemental magnesium refers to the amount of magnesium in each compound. Figure 1 compares the amount of elemental magnesium in different types of magnesium supplements [28]. The amount of elemental magnesium in a compound and its bioavailability influence the effectiveness of the magnesium supplement. Bioavailability refers to the amount of magnesium in food, medications, and supplements that is absorbed in the intestines and ultimately available for biological activity in your cells and tissues. Enteric coating (the outer layer of a tablet or capsule that allows it to pass through the stomach and be dissolved in the small intestine) of a magnesium compound can decrease bioavailability [29]. In a study that compared four forms of magnesium preparations, results suggested lower bioavailability of magnesium oxide, with significantly higher and equal absorption and bioavailability of magnesium chloride and magnesium lactate [30]. This supports the belief that both the magnesium content of a dietary supplement and its bioavailability contribute to its ability to restore deficient levels of magnesium.

You seem not to have included any of the footnotes from the reference you copied and pasted from (nor did you indicate which reference you were using). I think the chart was actually of limited use, as bioavailability will matter even more than the amount of weight added to the salt by the anion. But yeah, the gist I'd glean from this information is that one should supplement with a source of magnesium other than MgO.

What do you guys think about adrenegic antagonist like beta and alpha-1 antagonists?

I think that this is only really safe with broad-spectrum adrenal inhibition, to prevent unopposed alpha-agonism. However, if you BP is uncomfortably high in the first place, you are using too high a dose of stimulants.

And also what about the combination of reuptake inhibitors like methylphenidate and cocaine

I think that such combinations are at best additive in effect and at worst simply unpredictable; I wouldn't use them. The combination of releasers and reuptake inhibitors is even worse, with synergy being one possibility (as reuptake inhibitors prevent the monoamines that have been released from being taken up again), but attenuation of effect being another (as the reuptake inhibitor competes unsuccessfully with the releaser at the transporter site).

Do you think there are any difference in the passage of the BBB for magtein compaired to generic amino acids? Do you feel nmda antagonism?

I would like to see additional research, particularly a comparison against multiple magnesium salts. Mg2+ is a weak ion-channel modulator, so its effect is different from classical non-competitive NMDA antagonists. It's not something that people really 'feel', as one could differentiate from the placebo effect.

I have a hard time believing that you don't know how to write in vernacular dialect.

That was written in the vernacular--it's standard English with a peppering of pharmacological jargon when appropriate. I think it would actually be pretentious of me to somehow presume which words people will and won't know a priori and translate from my natural thinking (not that I could actually could do so effectively).

Don't combine maois with stimulants; it should only be done under rare circumstances through a doctor; and if you think the net effect is one of neuroprotection you're wrong.

I think that you're right in that the effects of this combination are unpredictably dangerous. I think you're incorrect in that such a combination can be negotiated successfully if one takes extreme care, and we should expect reduced production of oxidative species with inhibition of MAOB (inhibition of MAOA or broad-spectrum MAO inhibition are too dangerous though).

can you please post the right dosages of melatonin astaxanthin & probably other antioxidants. And scheduele of administration before ,during,after ingestion of speed, plus normal everyday scheduele(when not using speed). peace

Honestly, it's hard to extrapolate much from the dosages (of either the anti-oxidants or stimulants) used in animal experiments. I would take co-q10 (this one's potent, long-lasting, lipid-soluble, and readily crosses the BBB) and acetyl-l-carnitine (which is potent and crosses the BBB but is more water soluble) a couple times throughout the day at typical supplemental dosages, and then maybe 3 mg of melatonin before bed.

ebola

 

[coccie]

can you please post the right dosages of melatonin astaxanthin & probably other antioxidants. And scheduele of administration before ,during,after ingestion of speed, plus normal everyday scheduele(when not using speed). peace

You shuld be thinking in grams not mgs if dosages is to be kept like the rodents but to much is detrimental http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19388347

I'd say pop a pill of melatonin every or other hour between 6 and 6 if you are up and running. Basicly all you can afford, its difficult to supplement with foreign antioxidants, I'd say upregulate your own defence instead.

I have a hard time believing that you don't know how to write in vernacular dialect. Don't combine maois with stimulants; it should only be done under rare circumstances through a doctor; and if you think the net effect is one of neuroprotection you're wrong.
I only take mg because even adding in too many supplements leads to a convoluted effect so that you're doctor may not be able to tell what does what.

If you would say take 100mcg once a week or just on days you dont take speed it would not significantly inhibit mao but merely induce protective transcription.

 

[coccie]

I would like to see additional research, particularly a comparison against multiple magnesium salts. Mg2+ is a weak ion-channel modulator, so its effect is different from classical non-competitive NMDA antagonists. It's not something that people really 'feel', as one could differentiate from the placebo effect.

But then, would it do what you want? Zinc you can take at 200mg or more which is many times higher than usual. Magnesium you can double or triple your intake and the elimination half life is like a day while zinc sails steady for a half year.

I think that you're right in that the effects of this combination are unpredictably dangerous. I think you're incorrect in that such a combination can be negotiated successfully if one takes extreme care, and we should expect reduced production of oxidative species with inhibition of MAOB (inhibition of MAOA or broad-spectrum MAO inhibition are too dangerous though).

Occasional use of revesibel mao-a inhibitors when not messing with stimulants should upregulate youre antioxidant defence though. But amphetamine might have a too long half life to consider it for users.

Honestly, it's hard to extrapolate much from the dosages (of either the anti-oxidants or stimulants) used in animal experiments. I would take co-q10 (this one's potent, long-lasting, lipid-soluble, and readily crosses the BBB) and acetyl-l-carnitine (which is potent and crosses the BBB but is more water soluble) a couple times throughout the day at typical supplemental dosages, and then maybe 3 mg of melatonin before bed.

ebola

Q10 Ubiquinol Idebenone, this one is to confusing to choose. Both forms of it seemed good against parkinsonism. Edit; I would guess that the reduced/oxidized state doesent matter much for substances affected by the high rate changes of states in the metabolism.

 

[ebola?]

Zinc you can take at 200mg or more which is many times higher than usual. Magnesium you can double or triple your intake and the elimination half life is like a day while zinc sails steady for a half year.

Well, I'm not really convinced that zinc is functionally equivalent to magnesium. Is its modulatory role at nmda gated ion channels functionally similar to magnesium's? And because zinc ions are stored in presynaptic vesicles, can it exert overall nmda antagonism when dosed in opulence? Also, because of the body's ability to retain zinc, excitotoxicity due to overdose is a valid concern.

Occasional use of revesibel mao-a inhibitors when not messing with stimulants should upregulate youre antioxidant defence though.

Insofar as this effect is significant, though, we might expect upregulation of mao-a, which would be counterproductive. I'm speculating here though.

ebola

 

[PLACIDITY]

Used to do ALOT of cocaine. Someone opened up a sack of some pinkish crystal and I did a big rail following the teenager I just pulled up in less than an hour.. needless to say I couldnt sleep either. But my point is that I expected not to. When I absolutely had to come down I had a buddy that gave me alprazolam and muscle relaxers. Actually broke fresh green poppy pods off my nieghbors flowers and ate them like gumballs once. That did really work, but my intention was to get even more messed up. Kinda backfired.

 

[ebola?]

Please remember that the point of this thread is to consolidate adding information to an FAQ. I'm not sure how the above posts contributes to that.

ebola

 

[ExistentialEmpathy]

I skimmed through this thread and didn't see mention of good old mirtazapine. SWIM has experienced a remarkable benefit in preventing and treating amp/stimulant comedowns. It is, as far as I know, a benzazapine, which are structurally similar to benzodiazepenes. This might explain why it has the similar effect of calming the stimulant exhausted mind during comedowns. SWIM is usually passed out in under an hour after taking 15-30mgs of mirtazapine regardless of caffeine/amphetamine/whatever. If it doesn't put you to sleep it will at least moderately alleviate the crash and possibly give you an appetite. This is obviously critical to harm reduction. I must stress (as others have) that sleep is the BEST way to avoid a nasty crash, and mirtazapine is a long-used safe drug that's usually effective in inducing sleep.

 

[ebola?]

We don't go swimming here (it affords you no legal protection)--it's okay if you took mirtazapine to treat a stimulant come-down. It actually doesn't share any activity with benzodiazepines, and the positive effects you enjoy likely stem from histaminergic agonism and partially selective 5ht antagonism. Most people don't respond as well to the compound as you do, but it's safer than other means of 'treating' the come-down.

ebola

 

[Vaya]

I skimmed through this thread and didn't see mention of good old mirtazapine. SWIM has experienced a remarkable benefit in preventing and treating amp/stimulant comedowns. It is, as far as I know, a benzazapine, which are structurally similar to benzodiazepenes. This might explain why it has the similar effect of calming the stimulant exhausted mind during comedowns. SWIM is usually passed out in under an hour after taking 15-30mgs of mirtazapine regardless of caffeine/amphetamine/whatever. If it doesn't put you to sleep it will at least moderately alleviate the crash and possibly give you an appetite. This is obviously critical to harm reduction. I must stress (as others have) that sleep is the BEST way to avoid a nasty crash, and mirtazapine is a long-used safe drug that's usually effective in inducing sleep.

As ebola? already said, it's in our Bluelight User Agreement not to use "SWIM" or any other form of supposedly protecting yourself (i.e. "my pet rabbit wants to know how much mephedrone she should take on an empty stomach"). I appreciate your post, but please take a closer look at the BLUA, which is linked in my signature.

~ Vaya

 

[FastestGrlInTown]

Team Ebola!

Fuck a SWIM. Own that shit.

 

[Psichedelic]

Note: Combining stimulants, IE: Cocaine and MDMA with Nitrous Oxide is DANGEROUS. This high is unsafe and deadly.

Trust me, I died yesterday from it.

 

[truckeeman]

This is good, I couldn't agree more on the Benzo warning. IMO, all benzos except for diazepam (valium, which has a super long half life) should be outlawed except for emergency use. The non-benzos like Ambien are just as bad, IMO.

 

[Vaya]

Trust me, I died yesterday from it.

What are you talking about, specifically? Ego-death?

 

[Psichedelic]

Brain shut down, heart stopped, OBE began but was different than every OBE I've had before.

I wish it had been an ego death, but my ego is already dead friend.

 

[Vaya]

Brain shut down, heart stopped, OBE began but was different than every OBE I've had before.

I wish it had been an ego death, but my ego is already dead friend.

Im really sorry to hear
Whilst I'm not advocating the combo, I'm not completely sure the nitrous had much to do with the overdose. But the cardio toxicity from MDMA and cocaine... Yikes. Be well, please take extra good care of yourself.

~ Vaya

 

[ebola?]

Okay. That sounds just awful, but it also sounds like the effects you'd expect from a psychedelic interpretation of a disorienting out of body experience (remember, mdma and n2o were involved). Were cardiac arrest and brain death confirmed objectively? And does any of this discussion belong in an FAQ about safer use of stimulants?

ebola

 

[Psichedelic]

No doctors, although I've had my fair share of out of body experiences. I do know that they happen with MDMA + Nitrous, there was something VERY different about this one, unlike any other with an eerily dark feeling to it. When I came back my head was ringing on a level Nitrous never provides but severe seizures do, the seizures that I check myself into the ER for (rare- I avoid hospitals at all costs). My heart has had an irregularity in beat now for 5 days, which has not subsided and began after the event, granted I was in the ER the Thursday prior for heart related issues I began to put two and two together. My chest collapsed in and I had an event that highly fit the description of a minor stroke, which a medical professional did confirm (Thurs). In the proceeding days my state was observed to be that of someone suffering mild PTSD. While I am assuming without any professional opinion I do know that my heart stopped beating during the event, and given recent heart issues I don't believe my assumptions are too far from the truth. More so the Nitrous I was using has been found to be "cut" with Sulfur Dioxide, which I fully believe played part in the issue.

I can't much put the experience into words other than an OBE that wasn't quite an OBE but was. An odd day to never repeat.

/discussion as per Ebola?'s suggestion. If someone is keen on digging deeper I do use the personal message system.

 

[Bezoluv&respect]

Please private me[]ssage me, I'm a consaltant for Residential Treatment facilities, consult doctors, judges, and PHD social workers. I also have found my own self in similar situations.

I'd truly value a conversation, to ebola?

 

[turnupboss]

This is such a IMPORTANT thread!
GOOD JOB!

 

[SolidEther]

I have been using prescribed adderall 60mg (30mg-2x daily) for about 2 years and 6 months. I was also prescribed klonopin 1.5mg (.5 -3x daily) for about 6 years. I was also on 90 mg methadone down to 40mg daily for 8 years. My life was fine and I was blissfully addicted to my cocktail and never completely researched the effects of them combined. This is strange for me as I research everything. Maybe I was in denial and didn't want to know the true ramifications. Foolish indeed! Now I research everything.

As I said I was a whole human unit. Full, focused, alive with self and a boundless ego. My decline started with a stolen Adderall prescription. I had a friend (no longer) at my home and let him try some adderall at the disagreement of my wife. It was a decent time for him and we talked about a lot. My wife and I left him to chill in my living room. My wife and I went to be alone together. He had disappeared. WE assumed he went home.

The next morning I went to my med bag and my addy bottle was gone... near 50- 30mg IRs gone. I went through strange withdrawal and without my Adderall I actually developed a psychosis. It may have been triggered from the recreational dose @ 90mg over 8 hours and none after that being on it for over 2 years. It was terrible, I began to hear voices telling me all types of things about life that were harmless and scattered at first then they progressed to a state of mental dysfunction. I did not understand what they were, they were so intricately constructed by my mind I assumed they were actually telepathic messages from the goverment and they told me that they were in control of my brain function and told me that my meds wouldn't function if I took them. This caused me to change my routine and almost go cold turkey once.

It was far too horrible. I got back on them all -except when I got my Adderall script back The voices convinced me to stop taking the Adderall and I did, also I dropped my klonopin taking signifigantly. I had a full script of adderall sitting and even though I had the complete need to take it I didn't. The psychosis craze got more involved having many voices judge and pick at every action you have. Every time I thought of adderall these voices used demeaning references to contradict the required usage of them claiming that my brain was no longer "prescribed" them. These were many voices, my doctor, the president (I was a Cpl. in the U.S.M.C.) and convinced me I had not had enough progress recently for them to activate the receptors that were locked.

I was then told not to speak and I would earn the control of my own brain back and not be monitored in this way anymore. In essence the slew of completely different personalities with the actual voices of thier human counterparts (Doctors, Therapists, old friends, service men, etc.)explicitly convinced me that my silence about the investigative operation until it's completion was the pardon. Idid, I did not point them out, rat or finger them. I maintained complete silence trying to get a command to take my meds before I lost my mind. My family was flipped out by my silence and unresponsiveness to social engagement.

One night ...I said it is my script and I will take them and out of frustration I took a double dose..60mg. The voices dissappeared I started talking and acting normal again. As the dose wore off just a bit I could hear them creeping up saying they missed that ingestion of Adderall due to extremely high dopamine levels. They would block my nuerons again and it seem to stop the Adderall in it's tracks. In fact was I talking with my nuerons given voice to try and regulate me? They then allowed me to take an adderall which was under their jurisdiction if I never told anyone about thier clandestine top secret reasearch initiative. The adderall dose got rid of them. SO it wore off and I was told to stop talking as an exercise to prove self-control and determination. I heard my drill-instructor say lock it up marine. I wouldn't speak at all and my family wigged out. I was aware but purposely unresponsive in a very elaborate psychosis in which I was interacting with the voices giving them presidence over my actual reality and my brain created this with stunning accuracy and believable realism. The problem with this psychosis is that it's construction was so elaborate I never questioned it's actuality.

After hours of no communication my family called the paramedics to my home. They had no idea what was going on. I was locked in this head game mission that was ultimately to bring me this grand knowledge of how to save myself and my family from impending doom. So I ignored all the test for responsiveness even a set of rugged sternum knuckle rubs by the medics. They did not find any abnormal physical problems...breathing was fine, pupils may have been off due to stims and opiates, but my heart rate was normal to a bit high and pulse was only a bit high. My wife was questioned and she gave them my scripts and showed that none were missing and I had my Methadone take homes. No signs of overdose. She said she was with me all night and I did not use anything else. They said there was no way she could know what I did every minute. Instead of going to the E.R. and evaluating the condition since I was not in any immediate danger they ignored my wife and implied I used more opiates to make it easy for them. They had me in the sled in the ambulance, there quick an easy answer was to say fuck 'em he's a drug addict O.D'ing even though his scripts are legit and numbers match. They said "whatever his problem is this narcan will bring him out of it. Oh shit...Non needed naxolone!!!

The voice of my friend from collage said "Nigga, You about to get hit with the sick" He was my best friend in collage with very few white boys but I made the best friend in a predominately black school. His speech pattern was unmistakable, and he (his voice) tried to help me against this system of voices.

Sure as hell I came out of a blissfull fireworks show of white ( I assume the adderall euphoria on top of the opiate and benzo stack in my synapse) To hearing the paramedics counting down to my literal death. When the Narcan stripped my Methadone from the receptors that have grown accustomed to it for years it was HELL. I felt my reality destabilize into a mindless burning rage of fire, sickness of thrashing violence and endless uncontrolled screaming and shooting vomit. I had absolutely no control of my mind or body. I could not control the insanity. I was screaming and thrashing so violently in this burning pain and sickness they hit me with thorazine to put me down and buckle me. At least that stopped the true hell until I spent 2 days in absolute horrible withdrawal puking and screaming.

They put me into an inpatient psych for observation and I recieved no meds for 17 days. I went through the worst (I was in HELL burning for days) withdrawal that permanently afflicted my brain with a major depression and I recieved quite signifigant peripheral nerve damage from the shock.


I lost my spot at my methadone clinic and my pychiatrist was told that I was abusing amphetamines ( which I do, but not to the extent they elaborated upon) So I had to all of the sudden live without all of these. I lost all sense of reality. I had no focus, foggy headed complete dysphoria. It took months to recover myself. I still have Major Depression. It completely aggrevated my ADD symptoms and the peripheral nerve damage is slow to recover. If at all.

My Psychiatrist found bullshit holes in thier treatment as I did and slowly repscribed all my meds except methadone. I kicked that.

Now I need the Adderall to offset the peripheral nueropathy to levels that the burning , tingling sensations are absent. It also gives me a life that without it I have no emotion, am depressed with no focus or motivation. It may cause issues later and other treatment and/or dosage adjustments may become necessary.

I firmly believe in harm reduction and research. Now I feel I need to use Adderall under my doctors supervision. After heraing all this he agreed that despite the issues, I need the adderall to maintain quality of life. Without it I cannot move some days. Let this tale be one of precaution. Always maintain a strict watch over your condition at all times.