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Russo-Ukrainian War v. World War 3?

Wonder what this looks like now in 2025

Gk5b-g4W0AAvu_x
 
I don't really know when will nations understand that Russia and USA don't help other countries for too long, much less for free.
Stalin urged and ordered greek communists to fight against nazis, then, when the time to divide Europe arrived, he sold them to the CIA and the greek right wing, who killed them reds by the thousands.
In the 70s US told to its Vietnam puppet govmt that they would fight they corner til the last man, we all know what happened next.
URRS promised support and victory to afghan communist movement; but they ended up leaving the place and afghan lefties were left alone for radical muslims to behead them. Later, the US did the same, leaving their afghans allies in the hands of Taliban.
US also told shia and kurdish people from Irak in 1991 to raise against Sadam when he invaded Kuwait; as soon as the Irak army was out of Kuwait and the oil production was again secured, they leave the place amd Sadam did take care of shia and kurdish...
Today it's Ukraine and tomorrow who knows.
 
what you guys don't understand is putin has no agency.

ukraine, biden, nazis are all to blame for putin's actions, and unfortunately because he's a despot the military has to do his bidding... it's a case of the world against a will-less (is that a word?) "strong"-man with an army.
 
alasdairm said:
sincere?

he said that, if he was elected, the war would be over before he was inaugurated.

why are we still talking about this?

alasdair
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I never thought I'ld apply the word "sincere" to Donald Trump. But I do think he genuinely deplores the carnage. He's a builder, not a destroyer. I don't doubt that some of what he's up to will turn out badly. (I'm thinking of his turning Musk loose to rampage through the governing infrastructure.) However, if he finds a way to wind up this war and stop the obscene squandering of lives, he will have earned no small measure of decent regard from me.

50,000 American lives were thrown away in Vietnam for n o t h i n g. When I was a child, I believed that fighting for a principle was noble, even when you lost. I've grown up. There is nothing noble about a leader offering up the cream of his country's youth in a blood sacrifice for an unattainable goal because he's determined to stick to a "principle." Sometimes in this world, you have to cut your losses.

Zelenskyy was on the verge of settling things with Russia in a way that seemed reasonable to me. It involved more autonomy for Eastern Ukraine, reflecting the agreements outlined in the Minsk Accords, which were sensible. Right at that point, Boris Johnson showed up with a message from Joe Biden. He told Zelenskyy that he shouldn't concede anything to Russia because, massive Western support was available to his country, which would allow Ukraine to prevail in an armed conflict. I don't think Zelenskyy is a bad person, but nothing in his life prepared him for the responsibilities he took on. Biden and Johnson have made a complete fool out of Zelenskyy, and they've used Ukraine in the most cynical fashion. I voted for Biden and personally benefitted from some of his policies. He turned out to be a man of extraordinary shallowness and stupidity. I don't think he could help that. He never was a man of any depth or wisdom. (Back some years ago, Lindsey Graham said that God never made a better man than Joe Biden. I was actually impressed by that and thought it signaled something very good about Biden. It didn't. Biden, according to some pundits, was put on the ticket with Obama "to reassure white, Southern voters." Biden and Graham are both descended from slave owners.)

Trump is not a man burdened with many "principles." That gives him a certain mental flexibility that - right now - is letting him see further than the view from America's obsolete, Cold War stance and mentality. Sometimes it takes a rather simple-minded man to grasp what evades the more sophisticated of his contemporaries. Smart people can sometimes be a-little-too-cute-by-half. Donald Trump says he wants "to stop the killing." I believe him . . . much to my own surprise.
 
Señor Moreno said:
I don't really know when will nations understand that Russia and USA don't help other countries for too long, much less for free.
Stalin urged and ordered greek communists to fight against nazis, then, when the time to divide Europe arrived, he sold them to the CIA and the greek right wing, who killed them reds by the thousands.
In the 70s US told to its Vietnam puppet govmt that they would fight they corner til the last man, we all know what happened next.
URRS promised support and victory to afghan communist movement; but they ended up leaving the place and afghan lefties were left alone for radical muslims to behead them. Later, the US did the same, leaving their afghans allies in the hands of Taliban.
US also told shia and kurdish people from Irak in 1991 to raise against Sadam when he invaded Kuwait; as soon as the Irak army was out of Kuwait and the oil production was again secured, they leave the place amd Sadam did take care of shia and kurdish...
Today it's Ukraine and tomorrow who knows.
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Those are important examples that we should think long and hard about.
 
-=SS=- said:
Will all the billions we've given that little coke snorting queen he should be able to buy a couple on the black market by now.

Personally, fuck him. Get around the table and hash out peace. I don't want an unstable country with an unstable leader being given nuclear materials. And for what? Russia could vapourize every square inch of Ukraine with the amount of nukes it has.

So tired of this bullshit drama concocted by the Anglo-American military industrial complex. Get in the sea, you fucks.
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Yes, Britain passed the imperial baton to the U.S., which has been running with it for 80 years. At least the Brits extracted wealth out of their empire. All we extract is death and debt.

Ever hear this saying from the '60s: "What if they threw a war and nobody showed up?" Both Biden and Trump were invited to the war in Vietnam, and they both declined to attend.
 
DesertHarp said:
50,000 American lives were thrown away in Vietnam for n o t h i n g. When I was a child, I believed that fighting for a principle was noble, even when you lost. I've grown up. There is nothing noble about a leader offering up the cream of his country's youth in a blood sacrifice for an unattainable goal because he's determined to stick to a "principle." Sometimes in this world, you have to cut your losses.
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I'm not that familiar with Ukraine specifically but I am with Eastern Europe in general and know for a fact that Westerners have long been fed some "facts" that are completely untrue, but by ritually delegitimizing anyone right-of-centre, there is effectively no counter-narrative allowed except by pissed-off and therefore biased free agents (e.g. Tucker Carlson)

So many Westerners are stuck in Plato's Cave, not really aware of the extent to which their world view is being moulded by neoliberal influence brokers, and increasingly hostile to the existence of other truths that are mutually exclusive with this world view.

I think this is also a big part of why Westerners are having such difficulty coming to accept the fact that the West cannot win this war. Accepting that means also having to accept that the neoliberal world view of the post-Cold War era is no longer as concrete and absolute as it was.
 
thujone said:
I'm not that familiar with Ukraine specifically but I am with Eastern Europe in general and know for a fact that Westerners have long been fed some "facts" that are completely untrue, but by ritually delegitimizing anyone right-of-centre, there is effectively no counter-narrative allowed except by pissed-off and therefore biased free agents (e.g. Tucker Carlson)

So many Westerners are stuck in Plato's Cave, not really aware of the extent to which their world view is being moulded by neoliberal influence brokers, and increasingly hostile to the existence of other truths that are mutually exclusive with this world view.

I think this is also a big part of why Westerners are having such difficulty coming to accept the fact that the West cannot win this war. Accepting that means also having to accept that the neoliberal world view of the post-Cold War era is no longer as concrete and absolute as it was.
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Thank God for the Internet. I listen to podcasts that are all over the political spectrum. What a wide awakening that has been. Right now my favorite commentators are Republicans, even though I'm not. I never thought I'ld regard Tucker Carlson as "the voice of reason." Well, on the subject of Ukraine, he became the closest thing to that on regular Television, IMHO. People need to get out of the echo chambers they inhabit, where they just get their biases reinforced.

After I canceled cable TV, I subscribed to "Sling," so I wouldn't miss CNN and MSNBC. I'm about to cancel that too. The hosts on MSNBC are a bunch of shills for the Democratic Party establishment. I truly can't listen to their bullshit anymore. I thank Putin for exposing those emails that let us know that the leaders of the Democratic Party undermine the will and choices of the party membership. We have zero say in who will be a candidate for high office. The presidential primaries are a farce. Pisses me off.
 
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thujone said:
Westerners have long been fed some "facts" that are completely untrue, but by ritually delegitimizing anyone right-of-centre, there is effectively no counter-narrative
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100% agreed. The WWII western official narrative is just ridiculous, it's a tale for childs not older than 5.
British deffended themselves so bravely, and they also did very well in N Africa, they have reasons to be proud. That's a fact. And the US won a very hard war defearing Japan in the Pacific. That's also true.
But in Europe?? What's that tale about the "allies,"? The "common effort and shared victory"?
23 to 27 MILLIONS of Soviet citizens and soldiers died. Do you know the number of casualties of the US, the UK and France COMBINED? Not even a million. Those 3 western countries, with a population of 210 or 220 millions back them had the same number of casualties during WWII than Spanish (22 mil in 1936) or Siryan (21 mil in 2011) Civil Wars. For fuck sake, Ukraine has lost in these last 3 years way more than half of those allies' casualties

What's that bullshit about French resistance?? France had the biggest army in the continent and was defeated in weeks. The resistance was individually heroic but actually mimimal.
The true resistance happened in Greece and specially Yugoslavia, the only nation who self- liberated its land from nazi and italian scum.
But they were not allies! You will not see a single Holliwood production telling their truly heroic stories, but you have tones of shit praising the glory of the french resistance....
Fuck it, fuck it all
 
WASHINGTON (AP) — President Trump has directed a “pause” to U.S. assistance to Ukraine after a disastrous Oval Office meeting as the U.S. president seeks to pressure Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to engage in peace talks with Russia.

A White House official said Trump is focused on reaching a peace deal to end the more than three-year war sparked by Russia’s all-out invasion of Ukraine and wants Zelenskyy “committed” to that goal.


The official added that the U.S. was “pausing and reviewing” its aid to “ensure that it is contributing to a solution.” The official spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the assistance
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www.wtva.com
 
Russia is not ever going to give back Crimea. Same with the Donbas region. If Trump can make a deal, whereby Ukraine gets to keep the port city of Odesa, the Ukrainians better grab it. If Zelenskyy keeps doing things his way, Russia will go all the way to the Dnieper River, and it will also take the entire Black Sea coastal area, including Odesa. Then what's left of Ukraine will be a pathetic, landlocked region that barely constitutes a country. Western Ukraine won't get conquered because Russia doesn't want it.

I once heard of a jilted lover, who waited outside his ex-girlfriend's house, holding a bucket of acid that he threw at her face when she came out the front door. He declared, "Now your new boyfriend can have you . . . if he'll still want you." Her face was rendered horribly disfigured by the acid.

Ukraine is like that poor girl. Ukraine got tired of Russia and fell newly in love with The West. Her former lover has said, "If The West wants you, it can have what's left of you . . . . . after I get through making a mess of you."

Zelenskyy, the fool, is walking into a bucket of acid. Trump sees that and is trying to stop the madness. Basically, he just told Zelenskyy, "If you want to walk into a bucket of acid, you'll do it alone. We won't go with you."
 
DesertHarp said:
whereby Ukraine gets to keep the port city of Odesa, the Ukrainians better grab it. If Zelenskyy keeps doing things his way, Russia will go all the way to the Dnieper River, and it will also take the entire Black Sea coastal area, including Odesa.
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Absolutely[



QUOTE="DesertHarp, post: 16228878, member: 562636"]
Zelenskyy, the fool, is walking into a bucket of acid. Trump sees that and is trying to stop the madness
[/QUOTE]

What Trump is trying to do is bussiness, mainly
 
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