Revenge

[swilow]

revenge is a dish best served cold?

i think it's best not served at all.

"In taking revenge, a man is but even with his enemy; but in passing it over, he is superior." (francis bacon)

alasdair

Indeed. I utterly agree. Its actually the hard thing to do, to walk away or offer forgiveness. Far from being strong and powerful, often taking one's revenge is a giving in, a concession in favour of doing the easy thing. Of course, this is not meant to be easy but (cliche time) nothing worth doing ever is.

I approve of revenge in certain cases, especially where it involves harming children or gross power with impunity. Also, I increasingly support revenge against those who irreparably trash this planet with no regard for life or future generations.

See, I get angry about people trashing the planet, but I am not sure how hurting them will change anything. It just fosters the same mentality of destruction anyway, it makes one a hypocrite in some ways. I can't condemn a person for something I would do, no matter my reason for doing it. I am sure my attacker felt they had valid reasons for what they did to me.

I'm sorry but some people deserve to suffer horribly and die for the things they've done. I can learn to forgive someone for just about anything, given time, but the process is greatly aided by knowing that the crime and the punishment have been balanced.

I would have to question where this so-called balance is being achieved. What objective scale or ratio needs rectifying when someone hurts another person? I am sceptical of the existence of such a thing. It should exist, it really should, but the universe is deaf to justice, in my experience at least.

If I condemn someone to die horribly and this act is carried out, am I not them performing an action worthy of an equal grade of revenge onto me? If not, I wonder why my wrong is right when their's wasn't...

I understand your perspective and I think it is 'natural' (inasmuch as any moral attitude is natural), but I am unsure if I can accept the ramifications of it.

Revenge is also useful in preventing the situation from re-occurring. Turn the other cheek is a nice philosophy but in real life it tends to simply even up the pain. On the other hand, doing the same thing internally can help release the anger and shame of being a victim and help the healing process - we don't heal so well when we are stressed so being able to 'let go' the event helps us personally.

As others have said, I think this is a different thing. Negating a risk, such as presented by a person who has killed another, is definitely logical and sound. You may be preventing future killings (you may not be, but its a comfortable sort of risk). But revenge is almost always in the past-tense. Its a response to an actual/perceived wrong that has already ocurred. Because of the immutability of the past, this wrong cannot be changed; there is no action that will change that fact, including revenge.

Does revenge depend on the attitude behind any action taken? If one decides coolly and logically that one needs to go break those legs to prevent him ever chasing someone again, rather than a 'he got me so I will get him!' attitude, is that still revenge or simply a justified action to prevent furture issues?

As I said above, I think revenge is something focused on the past. If the future is the leading focus of one's action, this action doesn't qualify as revenge.

turn the cheek seems to be a somewhat misleading term for my concept behind revenge. i don't think anyone needs to become a punching bag, or lie down on the ground if someone is attacking them. its okay to tell the other person that you don't appreciate how they are treating you, or simply ignore them and walk away. if a psycho comes up to you out of nowhere and starts attacking, defend yourself as best as you can/call for help/report it to the cops.

That's it. About 4 years ago, I was followed down a lane way after picking up meds at chemist by this kinda thug dude who physically attacked and started punching me. I had a glass beer bottle in my hand, I smacked him with it and ran as fast as I could. I felt like I needed to perform this evasive manoeuvre to save myself; I can't fight and he was a lot bigger then me. I feel bad that I did that, but its totally different to me now hunting this guy down and attackind and punching him. You have to defend yourself, but you don't need to be offensive. Turning the other cheek is about submission, whereas resisting the urge for revenge is something far less passive IMO.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

also i saw a documentary on the history of the buddhist spiritual tradition in tibet

I'm going to watch that; thanks for posting it

http://thescienceforum.org/topic371.html there's a few links in second post.

Some of the links didn't work from me, but in the situation of the tiger; that isn't revenge as much as an expression of immediate rage, with a clear target, and a biologically sound reason for doing so. Getting rid of something that is taunting you makes sense as far as survival goes. But there is a 'conflict of interst', in that the tiger is in an unnatural environment in the first place.

Some really good posts thus far

 

[Journyman16]

We've talked a bit about what should be, but I wonder how many of us would follow such a path if we are really honest about it. I have been in both sides of this. When I was young I lacked confidence and had a strange upbringing. It left me so unsure of myself I would do almost anything to avoid confrontation. (yeah... I know... right? :D) Once I learned (partly, anyway) who I am, I did visit vengeance on people a few times, but it was along the lines of, "I don't get mad, I get even" and I have to agree, mostly I didn't feel as good as I'd hoped I would.

Mind you a part of that was I have a reasonable intelligence and it wasn't hard to see the possible consequences of what I did - which had also been a part of my reticence to act when younger - if you can see a path where 'this leads to that, and then that causes this, and then...' it makes it very difficult to enact revenge.

Mostly these days I try to make sure I do not get into such positions simply by being aware; many situations that escalate can be prevented if you see the track early enough. One thing I found useful was to be self-aware so when I begin to feel something negative I am aware enough to notice it and I try to understand why I feel that way; I then act to relieve the feeling before it gets out of hand.

Everything that happens to us in a mental sense is our own responsibility. Physical attacks are different, but when we feel slighted, embarrassed, angry or afraid, we have done it. We have responded to a perception with this internal view of things. So being aware of when something triggers is, for me anyway, a good way to avoid issues I'd rather not have to repair later.

 

[Smoky]

Good point. We respond based on what we bring to the moment…
A guy the other day crossed the street to come yell at me for moving my old canvases to the trash area near the park. He seemed activated already and his anger was escalating. I never met him before. People usually pick up old canvases in this area rather quickly to re-use.
I am glad to not waste the material for that purpose.

Anyways, I could tell he was already angry, as I caught sight of him on the phone for a second yelling at someone. It seemed he just needed to vent onto someone else, and I was right there in his field of view doing something he didn't approve of. Basically, he carried the anger and walked with it fast towards me and told me off while his face turned red. My business that day had nothing to do with him whatsoever. I was just a target, in the wrong place at the wrong time or right place depending on how one looks at it.

I could see it coming, so I kinda had all of 20 seconds to prepare myself mentally about how to respond to his attack. If I didn't I don't know what I would have done based on my own trauma ... if I would have jumped or reacted violently, or froze up. Fight or flight stuff. I think when I have a few seconds I don't go into survival mode. This is my issue.

So when he began to put me down and tell me he doesn't want to see canvases across the street waiting to be picked up in front of his lovely new home, I then asked him his name, changed the subject and inquired into when he moved into the neighborhood. I then asked him how he likes the area. He seemed baffled ...didn't know what to say then proceeded to answer my questions. He then went back home and got on the phone again.
Today, he just looks at me and smiles. He has not yelled at me again. I see him with his wife all the time and new born baby. If I had told him off or acted like he was acting and tried to hurt him back, then I might avoid him most often now. Luckily this was not the case for all. At least in this scenario. I have been on both sides myself.

 

[Mysterie]

@^ thats a good example of how to de-escalate someone elses anger being projected onto you.

iv had someone scream at me after i smiled at them while crossing the road at traffic lights on the street, telling me i was braindead and that i am fucked and just yelling obscenities at me at the top of the voice while i crossed the road. i didn't respond because i sensed that they were ready to jump and attack me if i did anything to give them an invitation to do it, even though it was broad daylight and a very busy intersection. funnily enough i started talking to a couple of ppl my age who asked me why it happened and then we started a conversation just from that after the incident.

i think he might have been schizo or coming down from meth or something..

but i think it might have happened as well because i was in a natural state of bliss and clarity that day, so it might have triggered a voice or something in that guy.

at the time i thought it might have been a test from the universe or something.. or that the guy that screamed at me was a wise master and there was some subtle message in what he did.
i might have been entering a longish manic episode

 

[Smoky]

Yes, it was projection indeed… good point

Interesting how you see various perspectives from the one incident you experienced. I tend to do that also at times, look back and wonder about the person, about me… about the message in it all. Do my best to keep an open mind. What can I take ... learn from the experience. Do I need to assign meaning to it or not? I was just on a person's path and vice versa and we intersected, nothing more. Who knows.
Some things just randomly happen out of the blue that make no sense at all - at other times to me it seems like everything during the day add up to the moment of the happening or outcome based on events.

Good you didn't invite him in further. Sometimes folks are just looking for a reaction… or have no place to put their frustrations. A smile can set someone off either way… You could have reminded him of someone from his past, or a voice within him as you say

 

[swilow]

We've talked a bit about what should be, but I wonder how many of us would follow such a path if we are really honest about it. I have been in both sides of this. When I was young I lacked confidence and had a strange upbringing. It left me so unsure of myself I would do almost anything to avoid confrontation. (yeah... I know... right? :D) Once I learned (partly, anyway) who I am, I did visit vengeance on people a few times, but it was along the lines of, "I don't get mad, I get even" and I have to agree, mostly I didn't feel as good as I'd hoped I would.

I don't know if it the important part of this is whether we practise what we preach, but moreso what we aspire to. Its a pretty idealistic subject with plenty of room for naivety and misguided intentions.

Standing up for yourself, in the moment, is acceptable. I think that failing to do so is what causes a person to feel slighted and begin plotting revenge.

Everything that happens to us in a mental sense is our own responsibility. Physical attacks are different, but when we feel slighted, embarrassed, angry or afraid, we have done it. We have responded to a perception with this internal view of things. So being aware of when something triggers is, for me anyway, a good way to avoid issues I'd rather not have to repair later.

Spot on. The ability of humans to project their inner world out is phenomenal, to the extent that we really easily cede emotional authority to others and blame them for it. We are so fucking strange.

:D

Good strange though....

 

[rickolasnice]

Revenge is the closest you can get to justice.

Both are completely subjective.. but it's still true.

 

[Ninae]

It depends how large the offence is. If it was really terrible you might be tempted to seek revenge. Like, if someone raped one of my sisters I think I might think about getting them beat up, although I don't think I would do it. But some people are just monsters and it can make you really angry.

 

[ThePharmacist4925]

The only way I can look at revenge is by looking at what happened that might cause someone to desire taking revengeful actions. If someone is tailgating me and I decided to exact revenge upon them by slamming on my breaks and getting out of the car with a baseball bat and pummeling them, the punishment does not fit the crime and both parties are negatively affected by the exaction of revenge. If instead I slowed down so that they were forced to get to their destination more slowly, yet more safely due to driving more slowly, perhaps the punishment is closer to fitting the crime and there is an ever so slight possibility that they may learn that tailgating may in fact slow their travels. Unlikely, but people are in fact capable of learning so what the hell. Emotional investment in revenge is also an issue, if you can be closer to objective in your revenge it seems likely that fair punishment will be dished out. Sometimes revenge is necessary in the sense that the perpetrator of the original action may be inclined to take such actions again if they are not punished or eliminated. Perhaps delivery of punishment and revenge go hand in hand, in way that while revenge may not be beneficial to anyone, the delivery of punishment may be necessary and if revenge is tied into that, then revenge itself becomes part of the necessary action. It's complicated, but I think removing the emotional investment from the punishment would be beneficial. Otherwise, in search of revenge we end up enveloped in the world of the perpetrator, drenched in negativity and worse for the wear. Of course revenge is necessary sometimes, but how it is exacted will either make a person feel relieved or discontent. It is up to the person taking revenge to wait until the emotions settle before acting, otherwise the revenge will most likely be too harsh and leave them unsettled. Patience is a virtue and it is highly applicable to the timing of revenge, careful actions are best for preserving one's mental health. You can't allow injustice to unpunished, but you also cannot let yourself be emotional is the process of serving justice. Being rash in revenge is more likely to lead to ineffective actions and emotional aggravation. Every action has an equal an opposite reaction, at least it is supposed to work that way. Therefore delivering appropriate revenge is more akin to serving justice, while over-punishment will have all the negative aspects revenge. Take care in your actions

These are just some thoughts I'm no expert on the issue and I probably got carried away in dissecting the topic of revenge.

 

[Samulson]

It might be worth keeping in mind the difference between revenge and defense as well. Defense is to react in the moment to prevent harm from occurring to yourself or others that are in immediate danger.
In such situations thought hardly has time to enter into the process.

Revenge is a calculated thought process based upon fear and the hatred that it breeds. Not necessarily fear for yourself, it could be fear for someone else's well being that causes hatred to be bred for the cause of that harm. Ultimately the whole process is poisonous to the self though, on all levels of your being.

 

[Ninae]

That's true. I used to be really harmless and it caused some problems with self-defence, etc. Now I just let people know I'm willing to use my energy/intelligence against them if they cause me any problems and some are nervous around me. That's hilarious to me, but the alternative is that you can become a victim. And I don't want to be a martyr.

 

[infectedmushroom]

People would desperately like to believe they can rise above their animal instincts and turn the other cheek - repress their anger and desire for revenge, when someone does them wrong.

Truth is, if someone slaps you, you're likely to slap back, rather than turn the other cheek - it's instinct, flight or fight, and has nothing to do with ego or spirit.

 

[Smoky]

Good point!

One can pause and reflect or respond back, when confronted verbally in a hostile way but when someone hits another there is an instinctual survival reaction that kicks in to protect oneself. The neurological body mind system becomes shifted and the frontal cortex doesn't work the in the same manner. Fight/freeze/flight stuff.

Depending of course on one's personal upbringing, some might not hit back but just allow it, per say if they were abused for example.

 

[Erikmen]

Yes, by abuse I believe you´ve lost your ability to use your instinct which would be an immediate reaction.

Very sad when that happens, no matter how they explain it later.

 

[Erikmen]

It depends how large the offence is. If it was really terrible you might be tempted to seek revenge. Like, if someone raped one of my sisters I think I might think about getting them beat up, although I don't think I would do it. But some people are just monsters and it can make you really angry.

I believe this kind of action makes anyone angry. The ability to control yourself and not do something stupid relies on your logic ways of thinking.
But if that happened to my sister I would not be very calm about it and would not look for higher spiritual powers, I´d seek for justice.

 

[Xorkoth]

Good point!

One can pause and reflect or respond back, when confronted verbally in a hostile way but when someone hits another there is an instinctual survival reaction that kicks in to protect oneself. The neurological body mind system becomes shifted and the frontal cortex doesn't work the in the same manner. Fight/freeze/flight stuff.

Depending of course on one's personal upbringing, some might not hit back but just allow it, per say if they were abused for example.

I wouldn't say that hitting someone back in the moment would be anything but defending oneself. I don't think it's a good idea from a survival standpoint to let yourself get beat up without fighting back. To me, revenge would be something like, getting hit and then festering in anger and planning a retaliation later, after the immediate conflict was over.

 

[Smoky]

Very true - it's absolutely not a good idea. I suppose for some though it stems from physical conditioning. Introjection. Object relational stuff, components that are stored within the body… past traumas where one will just respond in an automatic way and take it. This is unfortunate and not the norm.

I agree it's more healthy to defend oneself, indeed if this is one's knee jerk reaction; which I do believe it is for most. And yes, revenge might not be hitting back when one gets around to retaliation, but other forms of injury, of not just physical, but emotional harm….

 

[NOtoInvega]

Forgiveness
…18If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. 19Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. 20"BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD."…

Vengeance is the Lord's. And He wasn't talking about killing them with kindness there. By being kind to enemies of God, some will be lead to Him and escape the corruption of this world and be shown mercy from God. Others will be stubborn and grieve the Holy Spirit.

The scariest thing about God is that He is Eternal Love, He is extremely merciful, and He is all powerful. Not all things are subjected to Him yet, but He decides eternity for everyone. Eternity with such a perfect and loving God is something no one should miss out on. Anyone who asks Him for the Truth receives the Truth if they seek with all their heart. It is sad that so many just accept what is in front of them in this fallen, corrupted world. He is merciful though.

 

[Foreigner]

People are so idealistic when they talk about this subject. Everyone is trying to be a saint or act like the better human. It doesn't occur to people that revenge is built into us because we have a sense of right and wrong, and having been wronged. Human laws are about governance and civilization, they have little to do with justice. The legal system mostly fails miserably at delivering justice, but it does reinforce governing power.

An eye for an eye works, otherwise people wouldn't do it. But it has to be in proportion. I also support letting people fight out their differences, if they want to. In Canada if someone hits you and you hit them back, you can go to jail. It's ridiculous.

If someone is acting offensively and going out of their way to be a total prick to my face, or shows great dishonour, I have no qualms about punching them square in the nose. People in today's world do not understand consequences for their behavior. They are entitled, arrogant, selfish, and increasingly sociopathic. The system itself is violent, oppressive. And tyrannical.

Revenge is fair game. In nature if any human is stupid enough to incur the wrath of other humans, then they have chosen to put their survival at risk. Social justice works on reciprocity. If you're kind to people then you get respect. If you manipulate, harm and abuse others, you are likely to get eliminated. I support this natural order. If it were one we still used then corrupt scum currently running governments and corporations would've been lynched already.

 

[Xorkoth]

Yes, but so might people who do not deserve to be lynched. I don't think we'd be worse off if people didn't act on premeditated revenge. Though I do agree that not having the right to defend yourself is ridiculous (this is also the case in the US. I remember in high school if someone was attacking you you were supposed to run away, if you fought back at all you'd get in just as much trouble. In fact some kid got suspended because he pushed some guy off him who was trying to punch him).