Revenge

[swilow]

This is a difficult topic IMO. It seems to be human instinct, to wish for and cause harm to those we feel have wronged us. Our justice system is pretty much based on the idea that a persons bad behaviour can be atoned for by them experiencing hardship. An eye-for-an-eye is still very much the basis for many laws and penalties. From summary execution to mob 'justice' to drawn out courtroom based, jargon strewn combat, the ultimate aim is for the wrong-doer to experience a sort of equivalent misfortune, to atone in some way. Hail mary I guess.

I'm not sure I agree at all. I think it is inherently illogical to think that one subjects suffering can be replaced by anothe'rs. At the end of it all, if I kill someone who has killed, the universe only acknowledges two dead people. In a purely rational way, if I am merciful and do not take revenge, the outcome is immediately better (I say nothing of the potential future sins of that whom I 'saved'). That is assuming that staying alive is a good thing, and that killing isn't.*

On the other hand, I guess I can understand wanting to hurt those who have hurt us. In my life, I was hurt physically by someone close to me, and the only way it stopped was when I was big enough to fight back, to hurt them- and I must admit, I wanted them to be hurt too. Practically, this killed two birds with one stone; the violence towards me stopped and my "natural instincts" were satiated. But how natural is this notion of vengeance? Why, if it is natural, does it appear to be limited to humans? In an evolutionary sense, revenge serves no function except for the possible prevention of future wrongs (which describes a motive other then revenge), so it doesn't seem to be related to survival or procreation. It seems an unneeded expenditure of energy, wasting time trying to punish and hurt someone for something they cannot ever undo and life is rather brutal to wastes-of-time. Rather, it would make more sense to try and rehabilitate and exact positive payment from them in the future, or at least increase the overall potential for positive outcomes (i.e. the redeemed animal becoming a positive contributor to the society and furthering its goals/aims). However, that is idealistic and naive and I recognise that.

I thought this could make an intriguing discussion. I recognise that, for most ethics, there is not a single right system. I accept that revenge may have a purpose but I am not exactly sure I see what.

 

[Mysterie]

revenge is tied up in ego-attachment and self-identification

you have attacked me, now i must attack you to make things right. there is a distinction between you and me, we are not made of the same substance, we do not share the same suffering.

how can i be hurt by someone else? at least in an emotional sense. if i allow someones remark to elicit a response inside myself, and i react to that response then it is my own doing that is hurting myself.

i have a philosophy that if someone elicits a negative reaction inside of yourself, that they should be bowed down to (metaphorically), because they gave you an opportunity for examination at what was triggered, what is the root of what arised, is it by its nature positive or negative, or is it simply perceived that way through unconscious habit patterns.

one also has to recognise how much suffering the other party must be experiencing in order to release that negativity onto other people, they deserve love, not hate, thats how this never ending cycle of violence can be broken, someone has to stop reacting to other peoples impulses.

revenge is premeditated and harmful to all parties involved, in part i figure it is perpetuated through a culture which is supported through movies, tv etc where revenge is an accepted route to take if someone disrespects you.

my best friend thinks revenge is okay, it boggles my mind, but its not an uncommon sentiment.

 

[swilow]

^That's a good post Mysterie, you've basically expressed my thoughts on revenge . I do think its hard to love those who have wronged us, but I think that hatred consumes more energy in the long wrong.

 

[Bardeaux]

I don't necessarily think revenge is inherently rooted in hatred, nor the act vengeance upon one's own injustice. I very recently had an episode where someone close to me was harmed and abused by a much larger and dominant person. I wanted them to face an equal or (preferably) stronger force in order to show them that they can't just get away with whatever they want. In this situation I'm addressing a large man thrusting unwarranted violence against a much smaller female, which I felt was unjust. Justice is the key here, at least in this situation. I didn't hate the person, but anger certainly was a factor. And had he pounded on my door belligerently looking for said female, there likely would have been a very bad resolution for this man.

I feel it's much easier to turn the other cheek if one's self has been wronged, but much harder if those close to us have been wronged. Especially in such a way.

 

[Mysterie]

i dont think that its wrong to protect someone from being harmed by another, like in your example of him coming to your house looking for the girl which has been harmed.

but if its just you going to his house with a baseball bat to beat him up, i have difficulty seeing how this benefits anyone in the situation, do you really think if he took a beating he would reconsider bullying people? or would he be filled with more hatred and perhaps do something even more violent in the future?

people seem to think that expressing the strong feelings of rage that get stirred up when someone is considering taking revenge, is going to make them feel better, i think revenge makes people feel worse, it lowers you to the level of what was the object of your hatred in the first place.

 

[Bardeaux]

Like I said, it's not necessarily hatred. Certainly anger, but I didn't hate the guy. I didn't even know him. However I did wish him harm at the time. Beyond even protecting the girl, I wanted him to experience what it's like to be in the same helpless situation, not because it would change him in any way, but because its what he deserved in my mind. The girl wouldn't have been at my place anyhow, but if he came to my door looking for her he would have found pain (or worse) in the process. Like I mentioned, I felt a sense of injustice at the time. The universe was off kilter, this man was getting away with things I take very seriously. And again, if it had happened to me, if I got beat up unjustly, whatever. It's easy to let it go if it's you. If it's someone close to you, revenge due to an injustice is an extremely difficult thing to just let go of.

 

[Mysterie]

then i guess i would question whether the intent behind those actions of restoring justice is coming from a place of maintaining a sense of control in your life, or if its out of compassion for the person who has been hurt.

 

[Bardeaux]

The latter I suppose. It wasn't my life that was unjustly affected, after all. But the justice system is doing its thing. He's going to lose his restaurant over this and will know what it feels like to be an average person for the first time in his life (his parents are very wealthy and are done bailing him out of everything at 50 years old).

 

[alasdairm]

revenge is a dish best served cold?

i think it's best not served at all.

"In taking revenge, a man is but even with his enemy; but in passing it over, he is superior." (francis bacon)

alasdair

 

[Foreigner]

I approve of revenge in certain cases, especially where it involves harming children or gross power with impunity. Also, I increasingly support revenge against those who irreparably trash this planet with no regard for life or future generations.

Revenge and justice have a very fine line between them. As justice breaks down people begin to seek revenge.

I'm sorry but some people deserve to suffer horribly and die for the things they've done. I can learn to forgive someone for just about anything, given time, but the process is greatly aided by knowing that the crime and the punishment have been balanced.

 

[Noodle]

If you wrong me in error, or because you are an asshole! I will let you know where we stand.

There is a difference between turning the other cheek and being a push over, in my opinion.

That opinion may change based on some life affirming confirmation that bad people should just continue being bad, because I am too good to take action.

 

[Mitchi]

Practically, this killed two birds with one stone; the violence towards me stopped and my "natural instincts" were satiated. But how natural is this notion of vengeance? Why, if it is natural, does it appear to be limited to humans? In an evolutionary sense, revenge serves no function except for the possible prevention of future wrongs (which describes a motive other then revenge), so it doesn't seem to be related to survival or procreation

I think animals take revenge too.

Revenge is the means to stop something from happening again, so It makes sense. In civilised society one calls the police offcourse
And if someone hurts someone you love, then you hate (I think)

 

[Mysterie]

please provide an example of how an animal might carry out a plan of revenge.

 

[Mitchi]

http://thescienceforum.org/topic371.html there's a few links in second post.

 

[Journyman16]

Revenge is also useful in preventing the situation from re-occurring. Turn the other cheek is a nice philosophy but in real life it tends to simply even up the pain. On the other hand, doing the same thing internally can help release the anger and shame of being a victim and help the healing process - we don't heal so well when we are stressed so being able to 'let go' the event helps us personally.

But I think if there is risk the situation may happen again, letting go doesn't help as much as it should - the negatives get restimulated with each event. In such cases, maybe revenge is the way forward?

Does revenge depend on the attitude behind any action taken? If one decides coolly and logically that one needs to go break those legs to prevent him ever chasing someone again, rather than a 'he got me so I will get him!' attitude, is that still revenge or simply a justified action to prevent furture issues?

 

[Mysterie]

to me there is a qualitative difference when you refer to grudges and the topic of revenge.

grudge (distrusting lazy members of pride)

revenge (the action of hurting or harming someone in return for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands)

as for the example of the big cats killing the people that were taunting them moments prior, to call that revenge is humans projecting their own psyche onto an animal.

 

[Mysterie]

Revenge is also useful in preventing the situation from re-occurring. Turn the other cheek is a nice philosophy but in real life it tends to simply even up the pain. On the other hand, doing the same thing internally can help release the anger and shame of being a victim and help the healing process - we don't heal so well when we are stressed so being able to 'let go' the event helps us personally.

turn the cheek seems to be a somewhat misleading term for my concept behind revenge. i don't think anyone needs to become a punching bag, or lie down on the ground if someone is attacking them. its okay to tell the other person that you don't appreciate how they are treating you, or simply ignore them and walk away. if a psycho comes up to you out of nowhere and starts attacking, defend yourself as best as you can/call for help/report it to the cops.

if someone calls you a cunt on the street, then as revenge you give them the finger and tell them that you fucked their mother last night. this doesn't help the situation, it just escalates the situation and more and more negativity will get spewed by both parties.

But I think if there is risk the situation may happen again, letting go doesn't help as much as it should - the negatives get restimulated with each event. In such cases, maybe revenge is the way forward?

i can't think of a situation where someone would go out of their way to harass me multiple times. or where the situation can be bettered by an act of retribution. i just think its possible to take an attitude of non-violence when it comes to solving disputes.

i also wonder if taking revenge on someone, then means there is a good chance they will then seek revenge on you, or the people around them. and it just goes on and on.

Does revenge depend on the attitude behind any action taken? If one decides coolly and logically that one needs to go break those legs to prevent him ever chasing someone again, rather than a 'he got me so I will get him!' attitude, is that still revenge or simply a justified action to prevent furture issues?

i'd question if the person who can cooly and logically break another persons legs, is perhaps a sociopath/psychopath, they should probably seek mental help.

most people would be in a state of anger when the take revenge though i think, unless it is something which has become a normality for them.

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also i saw a documentary on the history of the buddhist spiritual tradition in tibet recently and it opened my eyes up to how much carnage communist china caused during its occupation of tibet, the destruction of their culture and tradition basically. they still occupy most of tibets land, 1/6 people were killed, every atrocity imaginable was done, all 4000+ monasteries and temples were pillaged, many tibetans were tortured/raped and kept imprisoned for decades in china aswell. one of the monks said, when asked how it had been being captured by the chinese and imprisoned for 20 years, said that he was in danger 3 times, danger of what? he was asked, in danger of losing compassion for his captors.

but out of it came rather than the distinction of a rich spiritual tradition, many of the lamas and monks fleed to india then eventually america and all across the world, and there are over 50 centres globally having a much larger positive influence on the world now they can share the wisdom passed down through all the lineages which have been kept in tibet as it was in the past a very secluded and solitary country.

i think if those people can have a revolution of compassion after having been subject to a holocaust/genocide basically, then i can do my best to have compassion for the people who wrong me.

 

[murphythecat]

revenge always ends up hurting yourself anyways. its better to let go

 

[Smoky]

Good topic. Revenge can be a temporary solution for long term suffering inflicted upon someone real or perceived.

It might feel good in the moment, but isn't very healing in my experience overall. I always feel better when I don't hurt the person that hurt me…. or that I took a hurt from that wasn't given directly to me. Also, sometimes we only allow others to hurt us emotionally if we let them. I mean if they don't physically harm us that is. I once heard, that people can forget what the person said, forget what they did… but never forget the way that person made them feel. Is it a choice to continue to feel the pain from what one did to us, or multiple people or institutions, particular harsh realities? Is it personal? If what one did to us is personal, is it possible to have compassion for him/her instead of revenge?

Carrying the anger is like walking around with a hot coal in the hand. I would say forgiveness and letting go is best in the long run, intrinsic change… not always repaired ideally, but can be transcended…

Then there is love. Can we love those who hurt us?

 

[Erikmen]

Besides, your liver will be grateful as anger is absorbed by your liver in its integrity..