Research Chemicals slowly becoming accepted as psychiatric medications...

[ShulginsReincarnation]

This does nothing to counter my own point. I also don’t even know what point you’re talking about because you didn’t say; the point that psychedelic drugs are never going to become a mainstream treatment? You’re really high on yourself or something else to be making such huge leaps and connections and be typing out dissertations full of irrelevant material that doesn’t get to the point of why this won’t be used in the clinic.



All your pontificating about rights, murky efficacy in a field as gray as psychiatry, and trials take a very idealistic approach to all this. Nobody gives a shit about ideals. This is a business. Good luck finding someone to manufacture pharmaceutical psychedelics that have zero chance at being patented, zero chance at being used wide spread on many patients, zero chance of being used with high repetitive dosing and thus being profitable. And extremely big bullseyes for lawsuits and law enforcement.

Good luck convincing Congress and the DEA that ecstacy and acid related drugs are good for medicine. Especially in the wake of the opioid epidemic. This is America; no institutions of power are as high on acid as you are and none of them give a shit about spreading acid like drugs to the masses. Drugs are all drugs to normal people. Congress and average Americans ain’t Bluelight. That’s something that’s going to face widespread political and legal opposition.

Let me know when you can get a drug as harmless as weed removed from schedule 1 like you’ve been trying to for decades amd has much more medical applicability; and then we can talk about niche, unprofitable use of powerful hallucinogens for rare diseases that aren’t profitable to treat because the diseases are rare and the dosing won’t be repetitive.

... Really? Because in the wake of the opioid epidemic is when psychedelic medicine is most needed. I feel like you are conveniently ignoring history and facts. Also, cannabis is going to be rescheduled soon in the USA. I mean Germany just did the same not too long ago. Its 2025 soon; wake up man. Or, maybe you are just a pessimist or something that can't see anything good happening in the world right now.

I don't have much else to say if you want to reject facts in favor of your opinion.

 

[ShulginsReincarnation]

I is sad to think that many psychedelics may have real benefits, or even various analog, but FDA approval always seems to die.

There are many possible uses and many have argued and I agree there could be real potential, but in the heated political climate both sides seem to be against any medication that could help people out of political concerns.

People can argue all they want, but FDA approval of psychedelics has only really occurred, somewhat under the table by states trying to circumvent Federal law and then the Feds doing nothing.

Even though psilocybin has shown many promising attributes if used in regulated test doses, the polical ramifications scares most of the politicians and, there is big money at stake and big Pharma can't have their profits destroyed by something as inexpensive to produce as a synthetic version, which could, according to research help anxiety and depression without the nasty side effects of most antidepressants and benzos.

Also the funding for this research seems to a liability and few in Congress want to have their names attached to it.
The long and deliberately slow process of new pharmaceuticals is an issue, that both sides do not want, if it involves any type of controversy and the media is hungry for that.

So, states legalizing and the government doing nothing is how it will be in America unless, the tide shifts one wat or the other.

... Why do both of you prefer your opinions to facts?

You're literally ignoring facts I presented, and @LucidSDreamr claims that facts aren't real... lol

 

[LucidSDreamr]

... the wake of the opioid epidemic is when psychedelic medicine is most needed

You are under the seductive delusional spell of psychedelics being a special secret or sacred knowledge. There is no use arguing with you. The delusion these drugs cause is too powerful. It’s like arguing against a religious person that is lost in their delusion.

“dope is dope” back in normal reality. Go to your local city counsel or any medical convention full of doctors and plead your case and see if you get any different response than that. Go to your local NA meeting full of 70 year olds with 30 years clean off opioids that did tons of psychedelics; they will laugh in your face I promise you. But you know better than them. What are you 20 or so?

Everyone on skid row is doing psychedelics too. Everyone at raves doing psychedelics is mixing it with every hard drug from cocaine to fentanyl. Seems to be curing them all of their fent and meth addictions doesn’t it? Therapy hasn’t helped these ppl either. Drugging their near schizophrenic drug addled brains with lsd isn’t going to help them.

Don’t worry 20 years ago when I was 20 like you I thought psychedelics would save the world. 40 years before that the hippies and Shulgin acolytes thought they would save the world too. We were all high.

The world only has gotten worse despite their increased popularity. This is FACT that you are too under the spell to listen too. You’re so lost in the noise people make about that that you can’t even see reality in front of you as it is and has been for decades. These drugs aren’t new.

 

[ShulginsReincarnation]

You are under the seductive delusional spell of psychedelics being a special secret or sacred knowledge. There is no use arguing with you. The delusion these drugs cause is too powerful. It’s like arguing against a religious person that is lost in their delusion.

“dope is dope” back in normal reality. Go to your local city counsel or any medical convention full of doctors and plead your case and see if you get any different response than that. Go to your local NA meeting full of 70 year olds with 30 years clean off opioids that did tons of psychedelics; they will laugh in your face I promise you. But you know better than them. What are you 20 or so?

Everyone on skid row is doing psychedelics too. Everyone at raves doing psychedelics is mixing it with every hard drug from cocaine to fentanyl. Seems to be curing them all of their fent and meth addictions doesn’t it? Therapy hasn’t helped these ppl either. Drugging their near schizophrenic drug addled brains with lsd isn’t going to help them.

Don’t worry 20 years ago when I was 20 like you I thought psychedelics would save the world. 40 years before that the hippies and Shulgin acolytes thought they would save the world too. We were all high.

The world only has gotten worse despite their increased popularity. This is FACT that you are too under the spell to listen too. You’re so lost in the noise people make about that that you can’t even see reality in front of you as it is and has been for decades. These drugs aren’t new.

... You're probably the most pessimistic person regarding this subject I have met in a while. I may not be 40 yet, but I am MUCH closer to 40 than I am 20 and I can see clear indications that society is in fact moving closer and closer to legalization than when I was in my 20s. Being 40 for you must mean leading a very sheltered life if that's how you view the world. Hopefully when I hit that magic number in a short handful of years, I too don't become a hopelessly depressed old man....

Also, did you realize that Bill Wilson supported the use of LSD in members of AA and got plenty of members to do it with him before it was made illegal? You talk about how these recovery groups are clueless? Just tell them to look into the history of the organization and how the founder was on fucking drugs when he came up with the concept and see how they become intrigued...

God please never let me become anywhere near as pessimistic and depressed as you in my old age... Smh...

Additionally, you do realize there are entire recovery groups centered on use of psychedelics as medicine these days right? They have hundreds of member already in just about 8 years time, and their presence is growing wider and wider. Get with the times man.

 

[Jnowhere]

I gotta agree with jnowhere.

None of this psychedelic shit is going anywhere. I work for big pharma if that carries any weight. It’s not that they even have to block it; no clinicians will even use such treatments even if they are approved unless there is a financial incentive. We have ketamine infusion clinics because ketamine doesn’t work and ppl keep desperately coming back hoping it will. If ketamine cured patients they would never come back (ppl would probably cure themselves by self medicating at home) and the clinics would go out of business. It’s simply preying on the desperate that can’t be cured.

The barrier to patent ability will be hard also. The drugs cannot be patented; their medical use might be patentable but in my legal opinion; the medical uses will not be patentable. This will make it extremely unlikely that any pharma company wants to manufacture it. Generic companies won’t think it’s worth it either because it’s such an uncommon treatment.

Ketamine has the benefits of longstanding use and acceptance in medicine and these psychedelics do not.

With the shitshow of the opioid epidemic being blamed on medical use of opioids; you can rest assured that any drug that has any reputation of being remotely recreational will not be used by clinicians even if approved out of fear. One person goes psychotic and kill’s themselves, doctor gets sued or prosecuted by our pro drug war police state; no doctor ever touches the treatment again.

I agree, and this is almost a bipartisan effort and you really hit on head on so many other major points. Just like psychologists don't earn a living curing people, they make them co dependant, that's how they make money.

And all the doctors who regularly prescribe to regular patients are scared. In most of these cases you have family doctors(internal medicine) being arrested and not just a few but alot, and for prescribing to long term pain patients what had worked for people with severe pain, now is a crime.

Then the road to approval, is long and and can be killed at many off at many different phases or trials or simply because the FDA head is told to.

Were opiods over prescribed, yes especially in those Florida 'pain management clinics' The answer is not to attack pain patients and people in need. How about trying to find a reasonable middle ground and not throwing doctors in jail and threatening the only way they know how to earn a living. These are usually family doctors who are now getting arrested and losing their licenses to practice medicine.

Many areas of medicine aren't affected and surgeons only can prescribed for up to a week and 30 Norco 10's isn't going to get the DEA to revoke their DEA numbers or licenses. Even a week of post surgery Percocets, will not trigger anything.

Throw in all the other branches of medicine that don't ever prescribe scheduled, especially opiods, meds outside the hospital or at all. Throw in all the surgeons who aren't affected, they legally can't, and you are left with family doctors or internal medicine doctors who are getting fucked over.
Basically family doctors, who in general are on the lowest end of the pay range, and have the most interaction, besides maybe some psychiatrists who actually see patients and really try to determine their real issues, and not give them a script and send them on their way.

Here's your benzos with 2 refills see me again in 3 months. Maybe that's not all, but I knew someone that was basically what happened and they were both happy with that. He got paid, they got pills( benzos). Ah, schedule 4 and yet worse to get off, of than almost all other drugs, after long term use. Who can actually get the strong barbiturates?

The thing with Marijuana was that a few people were arrested in California and some places were shut down. No real effort to clog up the courts and eh, fuck it let them get their weed, they will get else where and there is tax money to be made. Besides weed was a very steady source of income for the cartels.
A reliable steady source of income shut down, until the taxes got to high ( no pun intended).

Now I am not sure what is going on their, but it became cheaper to get it illegally and if the cartels were smart they would use better strains, aka give the grower better seeds.

Hallucinatingenic mushrooms aren't exactly high on the Federal governments list of drug problems to deal with. Then again, too many people don't want their names attached to a possible medication associated with abuse potential. As was mentioned by LucidS Dreamr, who made quite a few, spot on points.

Helping people and finding better solutions for depression, PTSD, anxiety and host of other psychiatric problems is not that high on the list of concerns of so many in power. Money, power and keeping it is.

I am not being jaded just realistic and LucidSDreamr, really hit the nail on the head of what I have arguing about, it is not about, oh this can help people. Do I really need to bring up the tired old clichè about a bridge in Brooklyn I have for sale? If you are talking about America now( where fucking over people is of no concern to those in control on either side); then you either need to grow up and understand the unfortunate reality that exists or start wearing a helmet all the time.

 

[Phytom]

O

I am noticing something that I thought about what feels like only a short while ago, though by now its been quite some time and some more recent thoughts have come to mind specific to more recent thoughts that I have had on certain substances in question. That something is the use of research chemicals for, well... exactly that: scientific research into whether or not said substances can be used appropriately as psychiatric medications. I want to say it was 3-MMC and now 5-MeO-MiPT that are being investigated for one thing or another in terms of psychiatric applications. Pretty interesting to say the least in my opinion. More interesting is that AI was asked to pick an RC that sounded promising for such, and AI picked 5-MeO-MiPT after analyzing 70,000 different trip reports. Says a lot about 5-MeO-MiPT to me lol

Thoughts? Comments? Questions? Concerns?
I, myself, have all 4 of these but I will let others chime in now

Ofc the pharma-industry snatches unto the most addictive drug in the market. 3-MMC is one of the most abuse-potential RC out there. Try it with 4-FMA for ADHD or Pyrazolam is the most functional Benzos for Generalized Anxiety there is with mostly no sideeffects. It was made by the same chemist that made Valium. Shows you they don't want you healthy, they want you addicted to their shit these cunts in dresses

 

[ShulginsReincarnation]

O

Ofc the pharma-industry snatches unto the most addictive drug in the market. 3-MMC is one of the most abuse-potential RC out there. Try it with 4-FMA for ADHD or Pyrazolam is the most functional Benzos for Generalized Anxiety there is with mostly no sideeffects. It was made by the same chemist that made Valium. Shows you they don't want you healthy, they want you addicted to their shit these cunts in dresses

Yes, they seem to be selecting the drugs with higher addiction potential or more pleasant effects compared to ones I would select for healing purposes. At least you recognized this aspect of what they are doing. Everyone else who has commented is acting as if the government isn't going to approve novel compounds for treatment of mental disorders. No logic involved; just loosely knited opinions of theirs backed by common misconceptions of what is going on in the medical industry. Your take at least identifies that they have an angle here that will allow some of these drugs to be approved.

However, I think this opens the floodgates and that a whole new form of psychiatry will come forth as a result once some of them are approved (no matter how long this takes.) And, I do think some of the psychedelic tryptamines will be approved in limited circumstances for treatment of severe cases of say addiction, depression, and/or anxiety related disorders. But, I feel its going to be rare to see these substances used once approved. Kind of like how methampfetamine is a medicine in US, but its rarely prescribed for example.

The other responses act like these type of things are impossible and that it will never happen for some reason (their reasons are based on very limited information on what is happening behind the scenes. Regardless of the fact one is in the pharmaceutical industry; this may be causing an even worse bias than if he were not tbh...)

Anyway, thanks for the input. I agree, but I think there's more to this than what meets the eye too though. Time will tell.

 

[ShulginsReincarnation]

I agree, and this is almost a bipartisan effort and you really hit on head on so many other major points. Just like psychologists don't earn a living curing people, they make them co dependant, that's how they make money.

And all the doctors who regularly prescribe to regular patients are scared. In most of these cases you have family doctors(internal medicine) being arrested and not just a few but alot, and for prescribing to long term pain patients what had worked for people with severe pain, now is a crime.

Then the road to approval, is long and and can be killed at many off at many different phases or trials or simply because the FDA head is told to.

Were opiods over prescribed, yes especially in those Florida 'pain management clinics' The answer is not to attack pain patients and people in need. How about trying to find a reasonable middle ground and not throwing doctors in jail and threatening the only way they know how to earn a living. These are usually family doctors who are now getting arrested and losing their licenses to practice medicine.

Many areas of medicine aren't affected and surgeons only can prescribed for up to a week and 30 Norco 10's isn't going to get the DEA to revoke their DEA numbers or licenses. Even a week of post surgery Percocets, will not trigger anything.

Throw in all the other branches of medicine that don't ever prescribe scheduled, especially opiods, meds outside the hospital or at all. Throw in all the surgeons who aren't affected, they legally can't, and you are left with family doctors or internal medicine doctors who are getting fucked over.
Basically family doctors, who in general are on the lowest end of the pay range, and have the most interaction, besides maybe some psychiatrists who actually see patients and really try to determine their real issues, and not give them a script and send them on their way.

Here's your benzos with 2 refills see me again in 3 months. Maybe that's not all, but I knew someone that was basically what happened and they were both happy with that. He got paid, they got pills( benzos). Ah, schedule 4 and yet worse to get off, of than almost all other drugs, after long term use. Who can actually get the strong barbiturates?

The thing with Marijuana was that a few people were arrested in California and some places were shut down. No real effort to clog up the courts and eh, fuck it let them get their weed, they will get else where and there is tax money to be made. Besides weed was a very steady source of income for the cartels.
A reliable steady source of income shut down, until the taxes got to high ( no pun intended).

Now I am not sure what is going on their, but it became cheaper to get it illegally and if the cartels were smart they would use better strains, aka give the grower better seeds.

Hallucinatingenic mushrooms aren't exactly high on the Federal governments list of drug problems to deal with. Then again, too many people don't want their names attached to a possible medication associated with abuse potential. As was mentioned by LucidS Dreamr, who made quite a few, spot on points.

Helping people and finding better solutions for depression, PTSD, anxiety and host of other psychiatric problems is not that high on the list of concerns of so many in power. Money, power and keeping it is.

I am not being jaded just realistic and LucidSDreamr, really hit the nail on the head of what I have arguing about, it is not about, oh this can help people. Do I really need to bring up the tired old clichè about a bridge in Brooklyn I have for sale? If you are talking about America now( where fucking over people is of no concern to those in control on either side); then you either need to grow up and understand the unfortunate reality that exists or start wearing a helmet all the time.

Both of you have valid points, but there is absolutely no need to be so negative about these issues. If you really want to see these changes in the world, then you would be working on making them happen as I am doing and have been doing. Instead you both choose to bitch and moan, and you name call those who won't join in your misery. To me, these are the actions (or lack thereof rather) and words of weak men. Followers, not leaders, behave and speak in this manner.

I wish you nothing but well, but I must be honest with you about what I am observing here when either of you speak. Your stance is far too common, and this is why nothing improves quickly in the world. You type rely on others to act in ways you choose not to because of how difficult it is to act in such ways which are a requirement to make changes in society on a broader scale.

Peace.

 

[tryptakid]

Yes, they seem to be selecting the drugs with higher addiction potential or more pleasant effects compared to ones I would select for healing purposes. At least you recognized this aspect of what they are doing. Everyone else who has commented is acting as if the government isn't going to approve novel compounds for treatment of mental disorders. No logic involved; just loosely knited opinions of theirs backed by common misconceptions of what is going on in the medical industry. Your take at least identifies that they have an angle here that will allow some of these drugs to be approved.

However, I think this opens the floodgates and that a whole new form of psychiatry will come forth as a result once some of them are approved (no matter how long this takes.) And, I do think some of the psychedelic tryptamines will be approved in limited circumstances for treatment of severe cases of say addiction, depression, and/or anxiety related disorders. But, I feel its going to be rare to see these substances used once approved. Kind of like how methampfetamine is a medicine in US, but its rarely prescribed for example.

The other responses act like these type of things are impossible and that it will never happen for some reason (their reasons are based on very limited information on what is happening behind the scenes. Regardless of the fact one is in the pharmaceutical industry; this may be causing an even worse bias than if he were not tbh...)

Anyway, thanks for the input. I agree, but I think there's more to this than what meets the eye too though. Time will tell.

I've been a therapist a long time now, and a person with experience using drugs from before that time. I am a seasoned veteran on both fronts and have long been interested in the intersection of psychedelics and psychotherapy.

In recent years, having watched cannabis become legalized in a number of states including my own, I have noted how the markets respond to this development, how regulation has responded, and how medicine has responded (as medical marijuana is one of the adult use legal statuses in many places). There is an untapped novel commodity with very little legitimate trade, and very little legitimate research behind as far as medical use. Nearly all of the evidence is anecdotal for it's medical benefits, yet, we see people authorized to use it medically for a blindingly wide variety of ailments (from physical like nausea or glaucoma) to psychiatric (such as sleep or anxiety). I've heard my aunt telling my uncle how great her experience was going on medical cannabis because "they'll find something to prescribe it to you for". The market, with little history of legitimate regulation, has exploded and brought in substantial revenue - venture capital has flooded in capitalizing on this established market with sudden investment potential, and medicine has been mostly... silent. I'm sure there are the odd practices here or there that suggest using cannabis on a case by case basis, but most people prescribed it are obtaining authorization from a physician with no actual treatment involvement.

I don't believe this will be the case with psychedelics - if it were it would be incredibly irresponsible (as I feel medical cannabis currently is). Psychedelic experiences are life altering in ways most people would otherwise not experience - this is why we see their potential for benefit. As a therapist, I have become increasingly wary of their integration into psychiatry or psychotherapy for a few reasons.

1) The potential for traumatic events - The last thing I would ever want for a patient is impacting them in a way that instills additional harm. This can happen even with the best intentions and without fault on the practitioner. Sometimes there's a misunderstanding, or a lack of awareness around someone's vulnerabilities. Sometimes it happens recklessly - a practitioner crosses a boundary, imparts bad advice, or becomes too invested in a client. Sometimes, it happens maliciously - a therapist violates trust.

All of these things can happen and can have lasting negative impacts on the person seeking help. It may discourage further help seeking, and it can exacerbate the existing problems that the person presented for help with initially. If we add psychedelics into the equation - as did in fact happen during the MAPS trials where a practitioner inappropriately touched and cuddled with a woman who was on MDMA and dealing with sexual trauma - the lasting impact on that person's psyche can be devastating. Even an unintentional, good faith harm can be magnified by the drug experience and can cause lasting damage.

2) The eagerness for the silver bullet, and the gold that follows - The green rush is the term used to describe the capital windfall for those getting into cannabis early on. This past year at SXSW, a panel discussion was held combining Venture Capital and Psychiatry to discuss psychedelic legalization. I recognize that this is the reality of American society, that we worship the greenback, but this sickens me, as I imagine it does from cultural background who were first persecuted for using (Spanish and the mushroom cults), then exploited to obtain hundreds of years later (Wasson and all that followed in his wake), and now have these practices diluted (and the original, natural sources that were used), while being largely excluded from this as traditional medicines are distilled into clean pharmaceuticals using clinical guidelines for administration in curated environments.

What if these truly are the tools of communion with the gods, and we're using them in a context that is godless?

I also worry about our desire to find the blockbuster psychiatric drug - and our blindness to the risks attached. We still fail to fully inspect the risks associated with SSRI use, and despite prozac being intended for short term use while working towards therapy, there are people who started taking it in the 90s and have never stopped. The more we define ourselves as 'patients' the more opaque our relationship with drugs/medicines becomes.

3) Boundaries. As a clinician, I practice under a set of ethical and professional guidelines (NASW Code of Ethics is one example). These guidelines for ethical practice set an agreed upon basis for clinical practice that is patient centered and designed to avoid causing harm. There are elements of my ethical code that I struggle to reconcile with the ways in which I may need to be available for a client who is undertaking psychedelics. A simple example would be personal contact - I don't hug my patients (occasionally if we're concluding a particularly long therapy relationship, a parting hug occurs, but it's an exception) yet people on MDMA often seek out hugs. Another example may be around spiritual experiences - I'm not a spiritual practitioner, yet some may experience these drugs in a way that leads to exploration of these issues, and I may not be the right person to participate in that discussion with. Both things are examples of interactions I'd be very comfortable offering to friends who are using psychedelics with me, but would never be comfortable offering to a patient.

I am open to psychedelic integration work (pre-use discussion and post-use follow-up) where the drug itself is taken on someone's own time in a context of their choosing. If a patient comes to me and wants to plan for a trip and then discuss it in the session afterwards, I'm fine with that. That's the level of comfort I've ultimately arrived at.

I was such an advocate for these things at one time, and I've developed a different understanding and sense of caution around these substances - they're quite powerful, and for all the good they can do, there is a lot of unintended consequences we must be wary of.

 

[ShulginsReincarnation]

I've been a therapist a long time now, and a person with experience using drugs from before that time. I am a seasoned veteran on both fronts and have long been interested in the intersection of psychedelics and psychotherapy.

In recent years, having watched cannabis become legalized in a number of states including my own, I have noted how the markets respond to this development, how regulation has responded, and how medicine has responded (as medical marijuana is one of the adult use legal statuses in many places). There is an untapped novel commodity with very little legitimate trade, and very little legitimate research behind as far as medical use. Nearly all of the evidence is anecdotal for it's medical benefits, yet, we see people authorized to use it medically for a blindingly wide variety of ailments (from physical like nausea or glaucoma) to psychiatric (such as sleep or anxiety). I've heard my aunt telling my uncle how great her experience was going on medical cannabis because "they'll find something to prescribe it to you for". The market, with little history of legitimate regulation, has exploded and brought in substantial revenue - venture capital has flooded in capitalizing on this established market with sudden investment potential, and medicine has been mostly... silent. I'm sure there are the odd practices here or there that suggest using cannabis on a case by case basis, but most people prescribed it are obtaining authorization from a physician with no actual treatment involvement.

I don't believe this will be the case with psychedelics - if it were it would be incredibly irresponsible (as I feel medical cannabis currently is). Psychedelic experiences are life altering in ways most people would otherwise not experience - this is why we see their potential for benefit. As a therapist, I have become increasingly wary of their integration into psychiatry or psychotherapy for a few reasons.

1) The potential for traumatic events - The last thing I would ever want for a patient is impacting them in a way that instills additional harm. This can happen even with the best intentions and without fault on the practitioner. Sometimes there's a misunderstanding, or a lack of awareness around someone's vulnerabilities. Sometimes it happens recklessly - a practitioner crosses a boundary, imparts bad advice, or becomes too invested in a client. Sometimes, it happens maliciously - a therapist violates trust.

All of these things can happen and can have lasting negative impacts on the person seeking help. It may discourage further help seeking, and it can exacerbate the existing problems that the person presented for help with initially. If we add psychedelics into the equation - as did in fact happen during the MAPS trials where a practitioner inappropriately touched and cuddled with a woman who was on MDMA and dealing with sexual trauma - the lasting impact on that person's psyche can be devastating. Even an unintentional, good faith harm can be magnified by the drug experience and can cause lasting damage.

2) The eagerness for the silver bullet, and the gold that follows - The green rush is the term used to describe the capital windfall for those getting into cannabis early on. This past year at SXSW, a panel discussion was held combining Venture Capital and Psychiatry to discuss psychedelic legalization. I recognize that this is the reality of American society, that we worship the greenback, but this sickens me, as I imagine it does from cultural background who were first persecuted for using (Spanish and the mushroom cults), then exploited to obtain hundreds of years later (Wasson and all that followed in his wake), and now have diluted these practices (and the original, natural sources that were used) into clean pharmaceuticals using clinical guidelines for administration in curated environments.

What if these truly are the tools of communion with the gods, and we're using them in a context that is godless?

I also worry about our desire to find the blockbuster psychiatric drug - and our blindness to the risks attached. We still fail to fully inspect the risks associated with SSRI use, and despite prozac being intended for short term use while working towards therapy, there are people who started taking it in the 90s and have never stopped. The more we define ourselves as 'patients' the more opaque our relationship with drugs/medicines becomes.

3) Boundaries. As a clinician, I practice under a set of ethical and professional guidelines (NASW Code of Ethics is one example). These guidelines for ethical practice set an agreed upon basis for clinical practice that is patient centered and designed to avoid causing harm. There are elements of my ethical code that I struggle to reconcile with the ways in which I may need to be available for a client who is undertaking psychedelics. A simple example would be personal contact - I don't hug my patients (occasionally if we're concluding a particularly long therapy relationship, a parting hug occurs, but it's an exception) yet people on MDMA often seek out hugs. Another example may be around spiritual experiences - I'm not a spiritual practitioner, yet some may experience these drugs in a way that leads to exploration of these issues, and I may not be the right person to participate in that discussion with. Both things are examples of interactions I'd be very comfortable offering to friends who are using psychedelics with me, but would never be comfortable offering to a patient.

I am open to psychedelic integration work (pre-use discussion and post-use follow-up) where the drug itself is taken on someone's own time in a context of their choosing. If a patient comes to me and wants to plan for a trip and then discuss it in the session afterwards, I'm fine with that. That's the level of comfort I've ultimately arrived at.

I was such an advocate for these things at one time, and I've developed a different understanding and sense of caution around these substances - they're quite powerful, and for all the good they can do, there is a lot of unintended consequences we must be wary of.

Thank you very much for your input!! This is more along the lines of the types of responses I was seeking here. While I understand the majority of BL users aren't working in the specific fields of practice that would make such insights readily available, I was ultimately hoping that most BL users were capable of looking at matters in such a way despite their occupational status. The fact that you are in such an occupation makes your insight all the more valuable yet, and I can entirely see where you are coming from in every way with what you have brought up. This is what I was looking for here, other angles of view from a familiar point of observation (for a lack of better words.)

I will take time to internalize what you have said in a way that matches with my current perspectives in order to further my understanding of the current state of affairs. Your insights are very relatable, so now I must find more personalized examples I have encountered myself to be able to better explain this viewpoint to others when discussing such. Again, thank you very much!

 

[LucidSDreamr]

...

Additionally, you do realize there are entire recovery groups centered on use of psychedelics as medicine these days right? They have hundreds of member already in just about 8 years time, and their presence is growing wider and wider. Get with the times man.

That’s great.

Most of us actual drug addicts don’t see psychedelics as anything special and just see it as a bunch of halluncinatory chaos.

Everyone I’ve meet in recovery that also used psychedelics had the dope needle in their arm or the crack pipe on their mouth as they were peaking on lsd or mushrooms.

I think the concept of them being some cure for drug addiction is grossly overhyped. Most ppl on this forum that are poly drug users interchange hard drugs and psychedelics like they would lemonade and apple juice.

I’m sure you can dig out some publication from some idealistic 25 year old doing a graduate degree in psychology that designed a study to prove that these drugs were the cure for addictionz.

They weren’t; they are just another flavor of dope to a real drug addict.

You will get laughed out of or physically thrown out of a recovery room if you go in there preaching that acid is the cure to a heroin or meth addiction. Maybe that flies in your little bubble of academia; it don’t work like that in reality and on the street though.

Don’t even get me started on mdma. First thing I did after trying a pill was grind the second one and load it into a syringe and it was every bit as addicting or more as shot of meth or hit of crack. Nothing magical or healing about it; that’s the illusion all addicts have; that the drug they do is good for them

 

[ShulginsReincarnation]

That’s great.

Most of us actual drug addicts don’t see psychedelics as anything special and just see it as a bunch of halluncinatory chaos.

Everyone I’ve meet in recovery that also used psychedelics had the dope needle in their arm or the crack pipe on their mouth as they were peaking on lsd or mushrooms.

I think the concept of them being some cure for drug addiction is grossly overhyped. Most ppl on this forum that are poly drug users interchange hard drugs and psychedelics like they would lemonade and apple juice.

I’m sure you can dig out some publication from some idealistic 25 year old doing a graduate degree in psychology that designed a study to prove that these drugs were the cure for addictionz.

They weren’t; they are just another flavor of dope to a real drug addict.

You will get laughed out of or physically thrown out of a recovery room if you go in there preaching that acid is the cure to a heroin or meth addiction. Maybe that flies in your little bubble of academia; it don’t work like that in reality and on the street though.

Don’t even get me started on mdma. First thing I did after trying a pill was grind the second one and load it into a syringe and it was every bit as addicting or more as shot of meth or hit of crack. Nothing magical or healing about it; that’s the illusion all addicts have; that the drug they do is good for them

You're the reason the government is hesitant to authorize treatment using psychedelics man... Seriously, there are tonnes of people (including myself) that resolved addictions through the use of them. It takes self-directed will to do it, so no a piece of shit junky that wants to keep using isn't going to benefit. But, someone who is working on themselves will. Be who you want man, but don't say medicine didn't work because you used it wrong.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

You're the reason the government is hesitant to authorize treatment using psychedelics man... Seriously, there are tonnes of people (including myself) that resolved addictions through the use of them. It takes self-directed will to do it, so no a piece of shit junky that wants to keep using isn't going to benefit. But, someone who is working on themselves will. Be who you want man, but don't say medicine didn't work because you used it wrong.

I’m the reason?

Yea it was all me. I told Jo Biden and now Trump to ban psychedelics. My bad.

And you’re going to have a very rough time around here calling people pieces of shit just because they aren’t addicted to the same drugs as you

 

[ShulginsReincarnation]

That’s great.

Most of us actual drug addicts don’t see psychedelics as anything special and just see it as a bunch of halluncinatory chaos.

Everyone I’ve meet in recovery that also used psychedelics had the dope needle in their arm or the crack pipe on their mouth as they were peaking on lsd or mushrooms.

I think the concept of them being some cure for drug addiction is grossly overhyped. Most ppl on this forum that are poly drug users interchange hard drugs and psychedelics like they would lemonade and apple juice.

I’m sure you can dig out some publication from some idealistic 25 year old doing a graduate degree in psychology that designed a study to prove that these drugs were the cure for addictionz.

They weren’t; they are just another flavor of dope to a real drug addict.

You will get laughed out of or physically thrown out of a recovery room if you go in there preaching that acid is the cure to a heroin or meth addiction. Maybe that flies in your little bubble of academia; it don’t work like that in reality and on the street though.

Don’t even get me started on mdma. First thing I did after trying a pill was grind the second one and load it into a syringe and it was every bit as addicting or more as shot of meth or hit of crack. Nothing magical or healing about it; that’s the illusion all addicts have; that the drug they do is good for them

I really have to ask you after all you've just said, do you even want to be sober/clean off drugs? Because if you sincerely do not give a fuck, which it seems you don't, then you wouldn't even be a good candidate to let trial the psychedelic therapy method of recovery. You're mentally not ready for it, so you won't benefit. And, if anyone is touting it as a cure, then they are no better than a snake oil salesman.

As I said in the other thread, this forum seems more like a mingling ground for drug addicts that don't want to get healthy more so than a harm reduction and recovery forum. It reminds me of a dirty fucking alleyway somewhere tbh. Not at all what a harm reduction forum is supposed to be like. There are only maybe a few people I have met on here with manners and brains that know how to treat drugs, and that's very sad considering how these forums market themselves to the public. Could probably get someone who has never used drugs in their lives on here, and you lot would turn them into a hopeless addict like you all rather than explain to them the dangers of use it seems. Hell, there's literally one thread specifically I dug up coincidentally where a well known member basically was jokingly encouraging someone to take a drug combo that could have easily killed him (though I also have questions for his psychiatrist as well tbh because the drug cocktail he was prescribed was pretty sketchy in and of itself lol)

Anyway, I get what you're saying, but have you ever tried to... idk... you know... not use drugs and seek therapy for your problems instead?

 

[ShulginsReincarnation]

I’m the reason?

Yea it was all me. I told Jo Biden and now Trump to ban psychedelics. My bad.

And you’re going to have a very rough time around here calling people pieces of shit just because they aren’t addicted to the same drugs as you

I'm not addicted to anything man... I came here to help people with harm reduction and recovery related topics, but everyone here just wants to stay addicted to drugs and use them in a harmful manner while encouraging others to do the same... Its scary...

And, furthermore, I didn't call you a piece of shit junky... I was speaking generally, but if the shoe fits go load up a rig right now and do the world a favor... Damn...

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I'm not addicted to anything man... I came here to help people with harm reduction and recovery related topics, but everyone here just wants to stay addicted to drugs and use them in a harmful manner while encouraging others to do the same... Its scary...

And, furthermore, I didn't call you a piece of shit junky... I was speaking generally, but if the shoe fits go load up a rig right now and do the world a favor... Damn...

You are addicted to psychedelic drugs

Hey if you get to label me a junkie I get to label you whatever I want.

Go fry your brain with some mdma and acid