Regarding the so called "refugees" invading Australia

[Escher's Waterfall]

http://scholar.google.com.au/schola...a=X&ei=W01bUsKUGsWhigfu84GABQ&ved=0CC0QgQMwAA

I was questioning his "experience" .

By the way, the first result on your link is theorizing, pointing out what is likely the presence of unknown genes which may be a unique variation of a "thrifty gene".

The second is paid article, from the summary, I can't tell what the conclusion is.

The third is what appears to be a global study, mentioning aborigines in passing.

The fourth is another paid article, but from the summary, it seems to be exploring alternatives to the "thrifty gene" hypothesis.

The fifth is about Hispanics in the US.

...

You see where this is going.

So tell me, for those who want to believe that diabetes among aborigines is caused primarily by genetic and not environmental factors, how are they confident that they aren't making the same mistake as pellagra researchers did in the early 1900s when they were convinced that germs, and not a poor diet, caused the disease?

 

[One Thousand Words]

You are the one citing symptoms such as obesity and sedation as causes for a group of people who are malnourished though.

 

[Middleway]

I


How do you reconcile this with such information that I provided earlier showing no relative difference between the rates, or with environmental factors?

AIHW is THE health research organisation in Australia. Where are you getting your info from?

 

[Middleway]

You've experienced a genetic cause among aborigines for diabetes?

I'm rather skeptical about this claim.

I'll post it again since you have seem to have missed it

Genomewide Search for Type 2 Diabetes–Susceptibility Genes in Indigenous Australians

"The prevalence of type 2 diabetes among Australian residents is 7.5%; however, prevalence rates up to six times higher have been reported for indigenous Australian communities. Epidemiological evidence implicates genetic factors in the susceptibility of indigenous Australians to type 2 diabetes and supports the hypothesis of the “thrifty genotype,” but, to date, the nature of the genetic predisposition is unknown. We have ascertained clinical details from a community of indigenous Australian descent in North Stradbroke Island, Queensland. In this population, the phenotype is characterized by severe insulin resistance. "
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384914/

 

[oldirtybizza]

I'm just wondering if those claiming genetics as the reason for higher rates of diabetes believe that prior to western influence these aboriginals had high rates of diabetes.

I don't believe this to be the case, the proposed "thrifty gene" presumably only increases the risk of diabetes in those with an "un-thrifty diet" in which case do you blame the diet or do you blame the gene? if you have a peanut allergy and eat a peanut causing you to get sick, did the peanuts cause the sickness or the allergy to peanuts? Who cares it's as irrelevant as engaging in a chicken-egg argument.

You are the one citing symptoms such as obesity and sedation as causes for a group of people who are malnourished though.

didn't you say you were a doctor or something? people can be malnourished and still be obese. Pretty sure malnutrition isn't that great for avoiding diabetes.

 

[bit_pattern]

So tell me

Oh. I don't care that much. Sorry. Just doing what I do when i am sceptical of something, go to the academic literature and figure out what's what.

Meanwhile... back on topic

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

I'll post it again since you have seem to have missed it

Genomewide Search for Type 2 Diabetes–Susceptibility Genes in Indigenous Australians

"The prevalence of type 2 diabetes among Australian residents is 7.5%; however, prevalence rates up to six times higher have been reported for indigenous Australian communities. Epidemiological evidence implicates genetic factors in the susceptibility of indigenous Australians to type 2 diabetes and supports the hypothesis of the “thrifty genotype,” but, to date, the nature of the genetic predisposition is unknown. We have ascertained clinical details from a community of indigenous Australian descent in North Stradbroke Island, Queensland. In this population, the phenotype is characterized by severe insulin resistance. "
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384914/

Why not include the rest of that?

We have conducted a genomewide scan, at an average resolution of 10 cM, for type 2 diabetes–susceptibility genes in a large multigeneration pedigree from this community. Parametric linkage analysis undertaken using FASTLINK version 4.1p yielded a maximum two-point LOD score of +2.97 at marker D2S2345. Multipoint analysis yielded a peak LOD score of +3.9 <1 cM from marker D2S2345, with an 18-cM 3-LOD support interval. Secondary peak LOD scores were noted on chromosome 3 (+1.8 at recombination fraction [θ] 0.05, at marker D3S1311) and chromosome 8 (+1.77 at θ=0.0, at marker D8S549). These chromosomal regions are likely to harbor novel susceptibility genes for type 2 diabetes in the indigenous Australian population.

Basically, their hypothesis is that the high insulin resistance is genetic in origin. What they found is an area of the chromosome that is unknown. They hypothesize that this is the area that's causing a genetic origin for such diseases.

You are the one citing symptoms such as obesity and sedation as causes for a group of people who are malnourished though.

Got anything to the contrary?:

Recent evidence of the extent of overweight and obesity in the Indigenous population comes mainly from population surveys. The 2004-2005 National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health Survey (NATSIHS) found that obesity is an increasing problem in the Indigenous population [20]. Self-reported height and weight measurements were collected for people aged 15 years and over (an option to have height and weight measured was provided in some remote areas). Height and weight information could not be obtained for 17% of Indigenous people and 8% of non-Indigenous people. Almost two-fifths of Indigenous people aged 15 years or older were in the normal or healthy weight range, but 28% were overweight and 29% obese (Table 1) [Derived from [20]]. The overall proportion of Indigenous people who were overweight or obese (57%) was slightly higher than the proportion of non-Indigenous people (52%), but the proportion of obese Indigenous people (29%) was considerably higher than that of obese non-Indigenous people (17%). The difference in levels of obesity between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people was greater females than males.

-Australia Indigenous HealthInfo

Let's review:

1. Obesity is a well-known risk factor for Type II diabetes.
2. Aborigines have a greater chance of being obese (12% more).

Therefore I would claim that it is likely:

3. Obesity is probably the major factor in T2DM among Australian aborigines.

And thus:

4. If obesity could be reduced, T2DM cases among aborigines would decrease.

You're claiming:

3. Genetics is probably the major factor in diabetes among Australian aborigines.

And thus:

4. We can't do anything about the majority of the cases.

You're basing this on your "experience".

I'm not finding your argument very persuasive.

 

[Bardeaux]

After reading this thread, those in Australia opposed to tighter restrictions on asylum seekers should take a moment of relief in the fact that at least you're not the United States.

Border states along Mexico have been passing extremely invasive legislation, making it legal for police to stop and question anyone who "looks" to be an illegal immigrant. All the while, militarizing the border along with proposals ranging from electrified fences, Berlin-style walls and introducing crocodiles into the river separating Mexico from Texas.

 

[One Thousand Words]

Let's review:

1. Obesity is a well-known risk factor for Type II diabetes.
2. Aborigines have a greater chance of being obese (12% more).

Therefore I would claim that it is likely:

3. Obesity is probably the major factor in T2DM among Australian aborigines.

And thus:

4. If obesity could be reduced, T2DM cases among aborigines would decrease.

You're claiming:

3. Genetics is probably the major factor in diabetes among Australian aborigines.

And thus:

4. We can't do anything about the majority of the cases.

You're basing this on your "experience".

I'm not finding your argument very persuasive.

You do realise that "Aboriginal population" is just collected by ticking a box in the census. I have plenty of blonde hair, fair skin friends that identify as aboriginal. Often because they are then able to receive government benefits. In fact when I was working for Ab Health I told them to come on down and I would treat them for nothing, they just had to fill in a form at the front desk. My point is you are looking at a set of data that is incorrect. The data is skewed yet you are happy to google research and use it as fact. Experience would tell you that many of these fair skinned aboriginals do not suffer the racial profiling of their darker skin cousins, yet they will still be recorded in population statistics. As I said earlier academia will often blind you from the real world.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

You do realise that "Aboriginal population" is just collected by ticking a box in the census. I have plenty of blonde hair, fair skin friends that identify as aboriginal. Often because they are then able to receive government benefits. In fact when I was working for Ab Health I told them to come on down and I would treat them for nothing, they just had to fill in a form at the front desk. My point is you are looking at a set of data that is incorrect. The data is skewed yet you are happy to google research and use it as fact. Experience would tell you that many of these fair skinned aboriginals do not suffer the racial profiling of their darker skin cousins, yet they will still be recorded in population statistics. As I said earlier academia will often blind you from the real world.

So statistics about "aborigines" are false since anyone can claim to be aborigine?

And we all know that anecdotes don't substitute for evidence.

Which seems to bring us right back to the beginning - if the statistics are flawed, then we don't even know if there is a diabetes pandemic among aborigines, or what is causing it.

 

[Middleway]

Poverty and alcohol is all wound up in this. Alcohol if you remember is the most refined sugar there is and is is absolutely associated in Type 2 DM
http://www.medicinenet.com/alcohol_and_nutrition/page4.htm
Add in lack of education and poverty, all of my aboriginal friends families lived on factory white bread and jam/penut butter, drank lots of soft drink and cordial.
If there were vegetables then it was some potatoes with fried meat - never greens

Oh and add in a totally sedentary lifestyle, uncontrolled hypertension (another type 2 risk factor) - you would be surprised if they didn't end up with type 2

There is never a single cause to this shit, it is a lot of factors working together

 

[Middleway]

After reading this thread, those in Australia opposed to tighter restrictions on asylum seekers should take a moment of relief in the fact that at least you're not the United States.

Border states along Mexico have been passing extremely invasive legislation, making it legal for police to stop and question anyone who "looks" to be an illegal immigrant. All the while, militarizing the border along with proposals ranging from electrified fences, Berlin-style walls and introducing crocodiles into the river separating Mexico from Texas.

And I do - moreso I thank fuck I'm not in europe.

The trouble is that because we are signatories to the article 31 of the 1951 refugee convention - all the fakers have a clear idea of what needs to be said to qualify as a genuine refugee.

http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/fake-gay-refugees

So when you say that "90% of all boat arrivals are found to be genuine refugee's" it really doesn't mean shit.

I have no objection to us taking double our current quota of asylum seeks, as long as they are chosen by us and chosen from ethnic and cultural communities that have historically integrated with with the least problems.

So no gang rapist car rebirthing Lebanese Muslims and no gang banger wannabe Homeboy Somali Muslims - Hell, lets just make it easy and have no muslims at all.

Plenty of desperate South Americans who would love a chance in Australia - Colombia has the most internally displaced people of any country on earth, 29 million.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-22341119
I would be happy to welcome those "brown people" to our country. Lets take our quota of refugees from countries which most benefit ourselves and work with safe second world countries to take the ones we don't want.

 

[bit_pattern]

Because Colombians are well known for their respect of law and civil liberties. No Colombian refugee ever has been a "gang banger wannabe Homeboy"

 

[gimpan]

And I do - moreso I thank fuck I'm not in europe.

The trouble is that because we are signatories to the article 31 of the 1951 refugee convention - all the fakers have a clear idea of what needs to be said to qualify as a genuine refugee.

http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/fake-gay-refugees

So when you say that "90% of all boat arrivals are found to be genuine refugee's" it really doesn't mean shit.

I have no objection to us taking double our current quota of asylum seeks, as long as they are chosen by us and chosen from ethnic and cultural communities that have historically integrated with with the least problems.

So no gang rapist car rebirthing Lebanese Muslims and no gang banger wannabe Homeboy Somali Muslims - Hell, lets just make it easy and have no muslims at all.

Plenty of desperate South Americans who would love a chance in Australia - Colombia has the most internally displaced people of any country on earth, 29 million.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-22341119
I would be happy to welcome those "brown people" to our country. Lets take our quota of refugees from countries which most benefit ourselves and work with safe second world countries to take the ones we don't want.

Fuck me, you do seem bigoted.

 

[paranoid android]

Paranoid Android, if Australia is "stolen" then every piece of land in North and South America is "stolen". Crying about how the country was "stolen" is so pointless and stupid. Every bit of land has been stolen and restolen over and over throughout history, what do you hope to achieve by carrying on about that?

Your right on that. Canada was certainly no better in treating native Canadians and the systematic isolation of the aboriginal people of Canada is just as bad or worse then the US. In the US well you know the story of how well they where treated their too. Maybe not as bad as Canada or Australia but still fucking awful.

I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of you slagging off immigrants. Or is that just Muslim immigrants. Oh wait you curse the Arabs up in the clouds yet you say you don't hate Arabs only Muslims. So how do you propose to weed out the Muslims coming into your country. Ask them if they are Christian or Jewish or Atheist instead of Muslim? It's a ridiculous concept worth of nothing but ridicule. Bigots and reactionaries deserve nothing but ridicule as their mind is as closed as a brinks vault.

I guess you never stopped to think that every immigrant group that came to Australia and just about any other country is discriminated against to some degree at first. Depending on your last name it would not have been too long ago that people would have called you a bog trotter, Mick, Pom or Limey depending on where your ancestors came from. You have no more right to the land as anyone else and xenophobic attitudes like your on all sides do nothing but stir up irrational hatred and scapegoating.

 

[livedit]

Fuck me, you do seem bigoted.

well said mate! it's seriously disgusting.

 

[bit_pattern]

 

[L2R]

^iran's graph guy would be 5 times bigger than the american one.

 

[bit_pattern]

^^ Yeah, Lebanon too...

 

[Shimmer.Fade]

Fuck me, you do seem bigoted.

Haha, seems? If it looks like a pig and squeals like a pig, it is more than likely a pig.