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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

Regarding the so called "refugees" invading Australia

Prove it.


You posted this:

"It is hypocritical for Australians to oppose immigration based on a persons country of origin; as I explained, Australia was colonised illegally in the first place (did indigenous Australians have a law against foreigners?)."
 
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^ Do you you have a solution to end the disparity between Indigenous Australians and the rest of the population?
 
It's the all caps rant at the end of that link that truly convinced me. ;)
...
Middleway: who are the 'deserving' immigrants? What should Australian immigration policy look like?
...
Me? I say we start with abolishing borders and continue with abolishing nation-states and radical decentralization of control of capital...via this frame, there are no refugees 'taking' what is 'owned' by another nation; the fruits of the earth are all ours to share.

ebola
 
Well what would be your solution to bring Aboriginal Australians standard of living to meet the rest of the population?

You also mention the British empire using Irish slaves, did this happen after 1901?

Well stopping the systematic discrimination against them by the government of Australia would be a good start. So would giving them better education so that they can further themselves in life. Providing more mental health and addiction services would be another good idea me thinks. Allowing more of them to get into the work force instead of many companies having the we don't hire Aboriginals here attitude would also be a start :\ . Canada should start doing the same.

The British empire used Irish slaves to build their infrastructure before Australia federated. Most where sent down there after the United Irishmen rebellion in 1798 and the 1803 rebellion. There was a significant rebellion by the Irish rebels in Australia against Australian colonial forces in 1804 as well which of course ended with the rebel leaders being killed and hundreds more being persecuted by the British imperialist pigs. I don't think that it happening before Australia was federated lets Australia off the hook anymore then Canada gaining it's sovereignty does. The building blocks of the country where already made and Australia much like Canada never broke from the British style government unlike the US. This is why i always say that i would have gladly have fought on the American side in the war of 1812 as kicking out the British completely and forming their own republic is one thing that the Americans did right. Too bad they still kept much the same economic system but atleast they are completely free of ties to the crown.
 
You obviously don't have a clue, many companies Ive worked for have a self imposed quota of Aboriginal employees that must be met, and that number far exceeds the percentage of Aboriginals compared to the rest of Australian society.

Whats this systematic discrimination by the government? are you talking about the fact that Aboriginal Australians receive more government funded programs than the rest of the population? Do you think that should be taken away to end discrimination?
 
You obviously don't have a clue, many companies Ive worked for have a self imposed quota of Aboriginal employees that must be met, and that number far exceeds the percentage of Aboriginals compared to the rest of Australian society.

Whats this systematic discrimination by the government? are you talking about the fact that Aboriginal Australians receive more government funded programs than the rest of the population? Do you think that should be taken away to end discrimination?

It's the same shit up here. A few goodwill gestures and throwing money at the problem is not going to erase the damage of a few hundred years of discrimination. The imperialists took away the aboriginals way of life and their whole society and yet people somehow expect them to fit in with Australian society. Up here it's not PC to say out loud any racist remarks against natives but get a few drunken cunts together and they will bitch and moan about how the aboriginals are just lazy welfare bums, etc. These tend to be very insightful conversations indeed 8) . It is a kind of hush hush racism more or less.

Society needs to change and all people should be treated as equal. Giving them more money then good old WASPS is not going to fix the problem and unless you give them the education needed to get a decent job in todays world the cycle of poverty just continues. Granted i think education should be free for everyone. You can't make a group of people equal by throwing more money at them. If that was the case then Canadian aboriginals would be treated the same as white people but they are not.
 
Australian aboriginals were never used as slaves as such. They were under paid but those workers families have since been compensated by the government. As a rule the aboriginal people did not assimilate and in many places they still live a simple life that they have live for 40 000 years. The racism that existed for 200 years can never be erased, but the fact remains that most white Australians have nothing to do with that. It was another time and another generation and at some stage you leave it behind.

Race relations in Australia is not as black and white as America. Genetic isolation for thousands of years means diseases such as diabetes, glaucoma and infant mortality are greater and will continue to be so no matter how much money is invested. It is easy for a Canadian to see aborigines living in primitive communities and think the government doesn't care but cultural considerations must be taken into account. The aboriginal people were a nomadic race for thousands of years, material wealth were not a priority. It sounds harsh but they simply don't have the desire often to change their living arrangement and are often happier for it.

I have worked in some of the worst aboriginal communities and seen first hand the waste and damage that the aboriginal people inflict on themselves. I have seen brand new houses that were built and handed to families for free, only for them to be destroyed within a year and the family move out to live with relatives. I have seen classrooms ransacked the last weekend of school holidays, leaving only the television and video player because that's what the kids want to do. Healthcare and education are heavy investments by the government but they mean nothing when the parents don't care enough about their children to take them to school or practice basic hygiene habits.

It's easy to blame the white man, and as a foreigner I'm first to agree that a small minority are xenophobic racist cunts, but equal amount of responsibility can be directed to aboriginal people themselves. 80% of the problem is leadership. There are no role models for kids growing up. Their parents have to take a lot more of the blame than generations of government who have poured money and resources at fixing the problem. There are no Martin Luther King's, no rosa parks, there isn't even an Aboriginal Jay Z who has said, enough, I will work my way to success. Of the few sporting heros who galvanised the whole nation, the vast majority went on to become wife beating alcoholics and end back in the communities the came from, washed up and defeated. It is ignorant to blame white Australians for this. Many other celebrities from every other race and creed have been welcomed into society, and imbraced for their cultural differences. Sri Lankans, vietmanese, Polynesian and Africans who have worked hard and assimilated are proof that Australia are not the bigots that you want you paint them to be.

If the aboriginals are to have a better life they now have to want the better life. Injustices of the past have been compensated as best they can and it is naive to believe that racist attitudes are what is holding them back. The notion that there is a huge colour divide the same that exists in the US is wrong. Rednecks exist sure, but they are not the reason for the inequality.
 
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We are talking about type 1 junivile onset diabetes. Not forgetting the higher incidence of rheumatic fever. You could also argue a genetic cause for higher incidences of substance abuse I'm sure but for me that is more environmental.
 
Australian aboriginals were never used as slaves as such. They were under paid but those workers families have since been compensated by the government. As a rule the aboriginal people did not assimilate and in many places they still live a simple life that they have live for 40 000 years. The racism that existed for 200 years can never be erased, but the fact remains that most white Australians have nothing to do with that. It was another time and another generation and at some stage you leave it behind.

Race relations in Australia is not as black and white as America. Genetic isolation for thousands of years means diseases such as diabetes, glaucoma and infant mortality are greater and will continue to be so no matter how much money is invested. It is easy for a Canadian to see aborigines living in primitive communities and think the government doesn't care but cultural considerations must be taken into account. The aboriginal people were a nomadic race for thousands of years, material wealth were not a priority. It sounds harsh but they simply don't have the desire often to change their living arrangement and are often happier for it.

I have worked in some of the worst aboriginal communities and seen first hand the waste and damage that the aboriginal people inflict on themselves. I have seen brand new houses that were built and handed to families for free, only for them to be destroyed within a year and the family move out to live with relatives. I have seen classrooms ransacked the last weekend of school holidays, leaving only the television and video player because that's what the kids want to do. Healthcare and education are heavy investments by the government but they mean nothing when the parents don't care enough about their children to take them to school or practice basic hygiene habits.

It's easy to blame the white man, and as a foreigner I'm first to agree that a small minority are xenophobic racist cunts, but equal amount of responsibility can be directed to aboriginal people themselves. 80% of the problem is leadership. There are no role models for kids growing up. Their parents have to take a lot more of the blame than generations of government who have poured money and resources at fixing the problem. There are no Martin Luther King's, no rosa parks, there isn't even an Aboriginal Jay Z who has said, enough, I will work my way to success. Of the few sporting heros who galvanised the whole nation, the vast majority went on to become wife beating alcoholics and end back in the communities the came from, washed up and defeated. It is ignorant to blame white Australians for this. Many other celebrities from every other race and creed have been welcomed into society, and imbraced for their cultural differences. Sri Lankans, vietmanese, Polynesian and Africans who have worked hard and assimilated are proof that Australia are not the bigots that you want you paint them to be.

If the aboriginals are to have a better life they now have to want the better life. Injustices of the past have been compensated as best they can and it is naive to believe that racist attitudes are what is holding them back. The notion that there is a huge colour divide the same that exists in the US is wrong. Rednecks exist sure, but they are not the reason for the inequality.

Great post and all very true. I grew up in a 50% Aboriginal community and saw first hand the destructive effects of alcohol and western diets on aboriginals.
To this day there is a 20 year disparity in life expectancy between aboriginal and non aboriginal and it isn't really getting any better despite the huge amount of money that have been thrown at the problem over the years.

At its core, the problem is welfare. I think the welfare system by and large works ok in Australia, it saves us from the worst of the type of problems of the US and other countries with minimal/no welfare.

But for aboriginal people it has been totally destructive. I had class mates in school who had the plan of leaving school and going onto the dole.
You would have 3 generations or people living on welfare and living in third world poverty because all the money goes to buy alcohol.

It is such a huge problem, I can't imagine how it can be fixed without the revisitation of "stolen generation" type policies.

Paranoid Android, if Australia is "stolen" then every piece of land in North and South America is "stolen". Crying about how the country was "stolen" is so pointless and stupid. Every bit of land has been stolen and restolen over and over throughout history, what do you hope to achieve by carrying on about that?
 
We are talking about type 1 junivile onset diabetes. Not forgetting the higher incidence of rheumatic fever. You could also argue a genetic cause for higher incidences of substance abuse I'm sure but for me that is more environmental.

Source for a higher incidence of Type 1 among Australian Aborigines?

Wikipedia states: "At the 2006 Census 455,026 people (or 2.3% of the total Australian population) reported they were of Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander origin".

This random au site states: "In 2005-2007, Indigenous people 15 years or older accounted for 1.9% of new cases of type 1 diabetes".

That doesn't seem like a higher incident.

As for rheumatic fever, it appears that penicillin use for unrelated diseases can greatly reduce the incidence of the disease. Which may point to a cultural, not genetic origin, assuming there's a higher incidence.

Got any source to the contrary on either diabetes or rheumatic fever?
 
Not an internet click away. I worked for aboriginal health and have papers I could post you

http://www.lowitja.org.au/sites/default/files/docs/genetics_research-DP.pdf


http://www.lowitja.org.au/sites/default/files/docs/Genetics report WEB 2.pdf
The lowija organisation is a good place to start. This is a general discussion paper but has dome related references. This type of genetic research obviously borders on nazi like eugenics so I understand if you are uneasy with it, but given the aborigine ponlation was a isolated genetic ark for 40000 yrs it is fair to expect some genetic reasons for their poor health.

Aborigines are 2-4 times more likely to suffer from diabetes type 2 also. When Aboriginal people lived a traditional lifestyle, they generally had a low body mass index, compared with what’s considered normal for European Australians, and their weight did not tend to increase with age. This naturally light body type and low BMI of Aboriginal Australians indicates that their bodies may need less energy (food) to sustain them than European Australians.
 
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I definitely don't see welfare as a problem, they need as much help as they can get. As a group of people they they just don't have that drive or materialistic urge. That may be a difficult concept to grasp but I'll put it to you that there is no such thing as an aboriginal crime gang. Unlike New Zealand where a lot of Maori are incarcerated for gang related crime. Despite a disproportionate number of aboriginals in jail they are usually there for petty crime. Unlike African Americans aborigines are not put in prison to protect society, more often they are incarcerated to protect themselves. That may hard to swallow but it is the honest truth.

I worked on Palm Island which at the time was the most violent place on the planet outside of a war zone according to the Guinness book of records. There were plenty of domestic violence, a few stabbing a week, but most injuries were caused by simply doing dumb stuff. Riding horses off the wharf into deep water, kids falling out the back of a ute or while trying to enter a moving car through the window. No amount of education can prevent the sort of stupid shit I saw. This wasn't due to being oppressed any more than kids being stabbed by their drunk aunts while they slept.
 
For a time, I lived in Cunnamulla which at the time had the highest rate of murder and rape per capita in the country.
It had 1200 people within the town and 12 public bars

A documentary was made about how fucked up the town is.

Welfare didn't help these people - precisely because they as you say - they don't have the drive or materialistic urge. Welfare is spent on alcohol, if it wasn't for that, they would have to work to eat and pay rent etc.
Any money for booze would have to come from work and holding down a job means you have to keep your life at least somewhat together









WTF does this have to do with refugees?

Oh thats right, Paranoid Android is telling us about this exciting new idea called communism, please continue
 
gimpan said:
Whats this systematic discrimination by the government? are you talking about the fact that Aboriginal Australians receive more government funded programs than the rest of the population? Do you think that should be taken away to end discrimination?

Such policies aim to redress not only overt discrimination but also the ways in which politico-economic and social conditions effect disparate allocation of resources to different racial groups. Some of these conditions are obvious, eg relegation to life in remote areas offering little employment or natural resources. Some of these are nigh invisible, eg lack of integration into 'mainstream' Aus. educational settings failing to instill aborigines with the taken for granted attitudes, mannerisms, and demeanor of favorable job candidates. And social networks are key: most hires, and nearly all hires for good jobs, occur due to social connections with others at the firm considering the candidate, particularly connections with those in managerial positions.

ebola
 
a picture said:
I have worked in some of the worst aboriginal communities and seen first hand the waste and damage that the aboriginal people inflict on themselves.

Individual and cultural responses to poverty tend to be maladaptive (cf. the sociological literature on the culture of poverty (set in relations to the political and economic structural contexts that condition the production of according cultural practices and meanings)). Are they really to blame? Does fault really matter? Isn't the central question one of how to cultivate contexts where every individual has the chance to flourish?

ebola
 
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