Opioids Reddit posters tell me I've ruined Kratom for myself permanently...

[Wilson Wilson]

Okay so to see if I got this right - you took a tolerance break, but found your tolerance rose much faster than it did in the past?

This is normal for all opioids I'm afraid. There is not too much to be done. However I do find ketamine helps. Not completely, but it will reduce your tolerance to a noticeable degree so the drug gets some of its magic back.

Also if you are buying headshop kratom, this could well be your problem. Buy from a reputable online vendor instead. Shitty headshop kratom is notorious for being, well, shit.

What @swilow said about novelty is also 100% correct. You will never ever get your first high back. The first time you try a drug is like the first time you listen to a song. If you listen to that song on repeat every day, it won't ever sound as good as the first time you heard it right? Same goes for any other experience you can throw at your brain and that includes drugs.

Finally I wanna say that with opioids in particular, the body seems to have this very strange habit of changing how it reacts to them over time. I used to get high off tramadol. Now it just gives me nothing but horrible side effects. Even after long tolerance breaks this still happens. Why? Tramadol needs to be metabolised, and I'm guessing my metabolism changed over time. The opposite happened to me with codeine. Used to do fuck all even when I was totally opioid naive. Now it actually gives me a nice gentle relaxing high even if I have a tolerance to stronger stuff. Probably because the required enzymes (CYP2D6 in this case) changed in my body. But it could also be a change in how the opioid receptors themselves respond to certain drugs. Who knows?

Kratom is not a traditional opiate, instead it's a plant that happens to have the properties of an opioid, and it's not very well researched so I am not sure how much of this applies here. But it's worth thinking about.

 

[Mycophile]

Okay so to see if I got this right - you took a tolerance break, but found your tolerance rose much faster than it did in the past?

This is normal for all opioids I'm afraid. There is not too much to be done. However I do find ketamine helps. Not completely, but it will reduce your tolerance to a noticeable degree so the drug gets some of its magic back.

Also if you are buying headshop kratom, this could well be your problem. Buy from a reputable online vendor instead. Shitty headshop kratom is notorious for being, well, shit.

What @swilow said about novelty is also 100% correct. You will never ever get your first high back. The first time you try a drug is like the first time you listen to a song. If you listen to that song on repeat every day, it won't ever sound as good as the first time you heard it right? Same goes for any other experience you can throw at your brain and that includes drugs.

Finally I wanna say that with opioids in particular, the body seems to have this very strange habit of changing how it reacts to them over time. I used to get high off tramadol. Now it just gives me nothing but horrible side effects. Even after long tolerance breaks this still happens. Why? Tramadol needs to be metabolised, and I'm guessing my metabolism changed over time. The opposite happened to me with codeine. Used to do fuck all even when I was totally opioid naive. Now it actually gives me a nice gentle relaxing high even if I have a tolerance to stronger stuff. Probably because the required enzymes (CYP2D6 in this case) changed in my body. But it could also be a change in how the opioid receptors themselves respond to certain drugs. Who knows?

Kratom is not a traditional opiate, instead it's a plant that happens to have the properties of an opioid, and it's not very well researched so I am not sure how much of this applies here. But it's worth thinking about.

Yeah, well first I'm going to take a break, then if I want to use again I'll use the high quality stuff I have multiple strains of, so there should be a lot more variation of effects.

Of course I know you don't get the magic of your first high back with almost any drug, it's like that with weed, but with weed I don't get that INSANE loss of tolerance so fast.

I get that Kratom behaves unusually, but for my tolerance to go from 3 grams to 15 grams in TWO WEEKS was pretty insane as it had never happened before, but I guess there's a 1st time for everything, and again, the headshop Kratom could be largely a part of it.

Believe me, if I had access to Ketamine I'd be likely to be happy with that in and of itself, both for recreational and therapeutic effects.

I have wanted to find it for years and you Brits have it VERY good with your access to Ketamine, but in the U.S., at least for me and people in my circle, it's very hard to get your hands on.

I don't know why it is so much easier for you guys over there.

That said, I am totally ok with not having the intensity of my first high back.

Just 3 weeks ago I got a GREAT high off of only 3.5 grams of this shitty headshop Kratom and was very satisifed....then about 10 days later I was LESS effected by 15 grams just because one time I took 6 grams and got insanely high, and that like I guess opened the flood-gates so to speak, and after that my tolerance skyrocketed.

Again, I'll take a break and then if I want some I'll try the good stuff of which I have 11 strains, red, white and green of multiple types, I bet I'll get better effects, and I've also been given suggestions I never tried like Black seed oil.

Thanks.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Yeah, well first I'm going to take a break, then if I want to use again I'll use the high quality stuff I have multiple strains of, so there should be a lot more variation of effects.

Of course I know you don't get the magic of your first high back with almost any drug, it's like that with weed, but with weed I don't get that INSANE loss of tolerance so fast.

I get that Kratom behaves unusually, but for my tolerance to go from 3 grams to 15 grams in TWO WEEKS was pretty insane as it had never happened before, but I guess there's a 1st time for everything, and again, the headshop Kratom could be largely a part of it.

Believe me, if I had access to Ketamine I'd be likely to be happy with that in and of itself, both for recreational and therapeutic effects.

I have wanted to find it for years and you Brits have it VERY good with your access to Ketamine, but in the U.S., at least for me and people in my circle, it's very hard to get your hands on.

I don't know why it is so much easier for you guys over there.

That said, I am totally ok with not having the intensity of my first high back.

Just 3 weeks ago I got a GREAT high off of only 3.5 grams of this shitty headshop Kratom and was very satisifed....then about 10 days later I was LESS effected by 15 grams just because one time I took 6 grams and got insanely high, and that like I guess opened the flood-gates so to speak, and after that my tolerance skyrocketed.

Again, I'll take a break and then if I want some I'll try the good stuff of which I have 11 strains, red, white and green of multiple types, I bet I'll get better effects, and I've also been given suggestions I never tried like Black seed oil.

Thanks.

After your tolerance break definitely get some proper kratom not that headshop shit and adjust your doses accordingly.

But that rapid tolerance increase from an opioid you've used previously isn't uncommon. I'm sure many others here can back me up on that. This is part of what makes this family of drugs so addictive as well. That rapid tolerance buildup once you've had habits has you going back for more and more very quick.

Shame ket is hard to find for you, it really does help reducing tolerance to opis. I haven't tested it with kratom but it does lower my tolerance to traditional pharma opiates and it's the same receptors so I'd be surprised if there was no effect. Right now I'm proper nodding off dihydrocodeine, a drug I've been using frequently for months so no tolerance break recently, and it is only twice as strong as regular codeine, and I'm nodding right off even though I've previously had oxy habits. I put this at least partially down to the fact I've been boshing the ket over the past few weeks.

Maybe look into if DXM has similar effects to ketamine for tolerance reduction? I've heard it does but I've not looked deeply into it at all because I have no real interest in DXM but if you can't get ket it's worth looking into. Personally I just went through 4g of ket, some of that shared out with mates and my girl, mixed with weed and had some hilarious convos with mates and deep convos with my gf. But now I'm taking a break from it before I kill my fucking bladder haha. Problem with ketamine is I do end up just doing it compulsively if it's there.

If it makes you feel better though trust me when I say I am jealous you Yanks have access to dispensaries for high quality reasonably priced weed. The weed market in the UK is very hit and miss. Sometimes you get amazing stuff, other times it's just mids, other times it's utter shite... complete gamble. And prices especially in London are stupid. But I'm hopefully going Canada next year so I'm definitely gonna hit up a dispensary or two.

 

[Mycophile]

After your tolerance break definitely get some proper kratom not that headshop shit and adjust your doses accordingly.

But that rapid tolerance increase from an opioid you've used previously isn't uncommon. I'm sure many others here can back me up on that. This is part of what makes this family of drugs so addictive as well. That rapid tolerance buildup once you've had habits has you going back for more and more very quick.

Shame ket is hard to find for you, it really does help reducing tolerance to opis. I haven't tested it with kratom but it does lower my tolerance to traditional pharma opiates and it's the same receptors so I'd be surprised if there was no effect. Right now I'm proper nodding off dihydrocodeine, a drug I've been using frequently for months so no tolerance break recently, and it is only twice as strong as regular codeine, and I'm nodding right off even though I've previously had oxy habits. I put this at least partially down to the fact I've been boshing the ket over the past few weeks.

Maybe look into if DXM has similar effects to ketamine for tolerance reduction? I've heard it does but I've not looked deeply into it at all because I have no real interest in DXM but if you can't get ket it's worth looking into. Personally I just went through 4g of ket, some of that shared out with mates and my girl, mixed with weed and had some hilarious convos with mates and deep convos with my gf. But now I'm taking a break from it before I kill my fucking bladder haha. Problem with ketamine is I do end up just doing it compulsively if it's there.

If it makes you feel better though trust me when I say I am jealous you Yanks have access to dispensaries for high quality reasonably priced weed. The weed market in the UK is very hit and miss. Sometimes you get amazing stuff, other times it's just mids, other times it's utter shite... complete gamble. And prices especially in London are stupid. But I'm hopefully going Canada next year so I'm definitely gonna hit up a dispensary or two.

Yeah, I will definitely try my better quality stuff my friend is holding next time I use Kratom.

I can't take DXM as I'm on Lexapro and that could lead to serotonin syndrome or else I would.

I'd like Ketamine just for depression alone let alone recreation. It is POSSIBLE to get it for that in some states, not mine YET...but it costs an arm and a leg and insurance never covers it.

I would really love to find some. I know it is out there but I just don't have the right connections but maybe someday.

I'm also waiting for legal weed to come to my state with real dispensaries as I'm in NY and it shouldn't take too long but we don't have it yet except if you have very serious medical conditions which is stupid.

But weed just doesn't agree with me like it used to to the point where i only really like it if I am on Kratom, drunk or on Phenibut, so I am REALLY hoping that if I find the right strain with a lot of CBD and lower THC it works without giving me anxiety but still, everyone knows you are high from how you look.

That is why I really like drugs like Kratom, amps like Dexadrin/Adderall/Vyvanse or LOW-er dose Phenibut: I like being able to walk out in public and do anything and have no one know I am high but feel high as a kite and confident.

With weed I feel self-conscious, and even if I didn't good luck hiding that you are high from people.

I mean sure, when it's legal you may not have to hide it from everyone, but you will still probably have to hide it from certain people like your boss or other situations.

I really like people not knowing I'm on anything.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Yeah, I will definitely try my better quality stuff my friend is holding next time I use Kratom.

I can't take DXM as I'm on Lexapro and that could lead to serotonin syndrome or else I would.

I'd like Ketamine just for depression alone let alone recreation. It is POSSIBLE to get it for that in some states, not mine YET...but it costs an arm and a leg and insurance never covers it.

I would really love to find some. I know it is out there but I just don't have the right connections but maybe someday.

I'm also waiting for legal weed to come to my state with real dispensaries as I'm in NY and it shouldn't take too long but we don't have it yet except if you have very serious medical conditions which is stupid.

But weed just doesn't agree with me like it used to to the point where i only really like it if I am on Kratom, drunk or on Phenibut, so I am REALLY hoping that if I find the right strain with a lot of CBD and lower THC it works without giving me anxiety but still, everyone knows you are high from how you look.

That is why I really like drugs like Kratom, amps like Dexadrin/Adderall/Vyvanse or LOW-er dose Phenibut: I like being able to walk out in public and do anything and have no one know I am high but feel high as a kite and confident.

With weed I feel self-conscious, and even if I didn't good luck hiding that you are high from people.

I mean sure, when it's legal you may not have to hide it from everyone, but you will still probably have to hide it from certain people like your boss or other situations.

I really like people not knowing I'm on anything.

Oh yeah the therapeutic benefits of ketamine are great. But s-ketamine was just FDA approved as a nasal spray depression treatment in the US, and I know as you say it costs an arm and a leg, that's still a good first step! We're much further away from getting to that point on our side of the pond, having to rely on the black market gear instead. I'd say we're at least five years from having ketamine as a depression treatment on the NHS if not longer.

S-ketamine is also far cleaner than racemic ketamine in my opinion, and I find it better for therapeutic use personally. Racemic ketamine has you mashed up but s-ketamine is more clear, relaxing, and you wake up the next morning just feeling better mentally. Whereas racemic ketamine is like more kind of psychedelic so it's easy to get anxious and have a "bad trip" on it. Not really a proper trip, but it messes with your head more.

A high CBD strain with low THC should hopefully help depression and anxiety without having you stoned. If you are on CBD with only a little THC you shouldn't look high at all. Isolated CBD products are legal OTC medical supplements in the UK now so I've used them a lot, the high strength ones are sadly pretty pricey, but CBD is great for anxiety, and does not make you high at all. So I'd say nothing to worry about with CBD heavy strains.

And that's the great thing about having legit dispensaries, you can choose a CBD strain, no way to do that here unless you grow your own. The various CBD products available here (vape liquid, capsules, sprays, etc) are much cheaper than they used to be but still work out pretty pricey if you want an effective dose. If I could get medical cannabis instead it'd be far more affordable.

If it's medical you shouldn't have to hide anything from your boss anyway. As long as it doesn't get in the way of your work which CBD won't. If it's a medicine you're using for a diagnosed condition they can't punish or fire you, at least they certainly couldn't here. It'd be disability discrimination plain and simple. I'm always pill popping at work, I literally can't get in trouble because if they ever tried to pull me up on it I can show them my prescriptions.

I agree about phenibut though. Amazing drug for remaining clearheaded, appearing sober, but having zero anxiety and a load of social confidence. I like to save it for the weekend though because when it comes to girls, phenibut is where it's fucking at!

 

[The_Twisted_Chemist]

Howdy all,

I just want to address one thing in this thread. What the guy on Reddit was talking about. If you have to take a drug a few times for it to work, it's called Reverse Tolerance. The term he used was incorrect. (Both are wrong in your case)

This is the opposite of drug tolerance (or drug desensitization), in which the effect or the subject's reaction decreases following its repeated use. The two notions are not incompatible, and tolerance may sometimes lead to reverse tolerance.

Most notable drug with a reverse tolerance is Kava Kava

What you are most likely experiencing is just tolerance. Opioid tolerance can last for a very long time depending on your substance of abuse, dose, your body (genetics, metabolism, overall health...), mode of use, length of use etc etc

With kratom, I find it depends on the brand, if your using tinctures or other extracts. For the latter two, they will skyrocket your tolerance in no time. With pure leaf, I find that if I use daily for for two weeks, I need to take 10-12 grams for it to work well.
If I take a drug holiday for a week or two, tolerance goes back down.

On traditional opioids (hydrocodone, oxycodone) or opiates (Morphine, codeine, raw opium) I find that my tolerance does not increase as fast as it does with kratom.

Stay safe, if you don't know your drugs, do no drugs


I am not a medical practitioner just a researcher. If you ask for medical advice, my response will always be: If this is a medical emergency dial your local emergency number: 911 USA/Canada; 999 (or 55) UK; EU 112; AUS 000; NZ 111

All other questions, please contact your doctor

 

[Mycophile]

Howdy all,

I just want to address one thing in this thread. What the guy on Reddit was talking about. If you have to take a drug a few times for it to work, it's called Reverse Tolerance. The term he used was incorrect. (Both are wrong in your case)

This is the opposite of drug tolerance (or drug desensitization), in which the effect or the subject's reaction decreases following its repeated use. The two notions are not incompatible, and tolerance may sometimes lead to reverse tolerance.

Most notable drug with a reverse tolerance is Kava Kava

What you are most likely experiencing is just tolerance. Opioid tolerance can last for a very long time depending on your substance of abuse, dose, your body (genetics, metabolism, overall health...), mode of use, length of use etc etc

With kratom, I find it depends on the brand, if your using tinctures or other extracts. For the latter two, they will skyrocket your tolerance in no time. With pure leaf, I find that if I use daily for for two weeks, I need to take 10-12 grams for it to work well.
If I take a drug holiday for a week or two, tolerance goes back down.

On traditional opioids (hydrocodone, oxycodone) or opiates (Morphine, codeine, raw opium) I find that my tolerance does not increase as fast as it does with kratom.

Stay safe, if you don't know your drugs, do no drugs


I am not a medical practitioner just a researcher. If you ask for medical advice, my response will always be: If this is a medical emergency dial your local emergency number: 911 USA/Canada; 999 (or 55) UK; EU 112; AUS 000; NZ 111

All other questions, please contact your doctor

First off, why are you assuming that there is any kind of emergency?

Or did I read you wrong?

Health wise I am fine as far as Kratom is concerned.

Which Reddit poster did you mean was wrong and what was it he said that you think is wrong?

Most of them are saying that it is tolerance and the effectivness of the drug being lost because I have used it too much, so why would you say that neither tolerance or reverse tolerance is correct in my case?

This is DEFINITELY not a case of reverse tolerance that is for sure.

That being said, I took 6 days off and right now I am VERY high, but had to take 15 grams to get there, then another 2 which was just unnecessary lol...but one of the strains is different and is a white strain so that could account of a different effect, but the majority of my dose was still a red strain I'd tried before (and no, I avoid extracts and other opioids/opiates because I don't want to make my tolerance even worse, or risk WD, and only use plain leaf powder.)

I mean, my back is itching right now I am so high haha.

So yeah, I mean, it just seems like my tolerance has sky rocketed very quickly but still totally works, which I am glad about, but I wish I needed less and don't want my tolerance to rise more.

I kind of feel that I shouldn't be using Kratom at the moment for different reasons, but if I am going to I am sure I'd get better effects from the superior strains of Kratom my friend is holding for me, as I'd mentioned, than this headshop stuff, and maybe need less, but again, I am VERY high right now, so it still works.

Another poster is still telling me that for hearing using Nalterxone has helped her lower her tolerance again.

What do you think about that idea?

Do you think these people are really right that is very common for people to get to the point where Kratom doesn't work for them at all anymore?

And again, why are you saying that neither tolerance nor reverse tolerance is the case in my situation?

Thanks.

 

[Quere]

Yeah once you gain a big tolerance it takes longer to get rid of and also comes back faster. And if you did take 5 yrs off the tolerance reduction would still not be complete (i.e there's a level that is permanent, and you'll never go back to the tolerance you had at the start). But taking a significant amount of time off would reduce your tolerance a large amount. So you need to be very caref when you start back up again and take a low dose.

At least that's how conventional opioids work IME

 

[D0ffrot]

These guys are saying the only way I can reset my tolerance to Kratom is with Naltrexone.

I've never used that and don't know if that's legal or anything about it.

All naltrexone is, is the standalone version of what is formulated and found in suboxone strips (bupe/naloxone), and what is found in nafcan (naloxone hcl Nasal mist)

Which I essentially see what he's getting at, I've used it to sort of drop my tolerance harder after those first few days of dangerous precipitated WD territory.

 

[hydroazuanacaine]

if it’s like other opiates, you can’t use regular anymore. if i quit dope for a few years, first time i use my tolerance will be low as fuck. if i only use once every other month, my tolerance will stay pretty low. if i start using everyday, it’ll take all of two weeks for my tolerance to be where it was before i quit.

that’s drugs. they’re not that sweet.

 

[BzCurio]

Their definition of kindling is wrong, it has to do with withdrawals becoming more severe each time you experience withdrawal. It has nothing to do with tolerance and is credited to glutamate "jumping the gun" more and more with each withdrawal episode.

This is one of the reasons hangovers are believed to get a lot worse in your 30s after drinking even moderately in your 20s. You've experienced the next morning acute withdrawal so many times that it eventually becomes too unpleasant.

What I am not aware of and am also unable to find is if kindling happens even when tapering the substance (even alcohol can be tapered, but a weekend binge often isn't). Since kindling is believed to be caused by damage done by the over excited glutamate system causing toxicity, a taper would prevent such a severe episode. The Ashton manual even states users that withdrawal from benzos (a drug that kindles) using a tapering regime can resume as-needed usage once completed, and if tapered correctly (read: not a detox center rapid 14 day taper) is mostly asymptomatic.


What I don't doubt, however, is that your brain becomes more ready to make the same tolerance changes it did before in a faster time. Though that is not kindling.

 

[chrispche]

I read, heard from somewhere that DXM can reverse Opiate tolerance. Can't remember where, any one elaborate on that. Maybe it was a dream.

 

[Aimee73]

I read, heard from somewhere that DXM can reverse Opiate tolerance. Can't remember where, any one elaborate on that. Maybe it was a dream.

Lol.. we had the same dream!!! .. I've read that somewhere... Does not make it true, but I've definitely read something about it!

 

[GENGAR]

I doubt it would be permanent

 

[negrogesic]

It is not permanent.

 

[bluemonkey]

Just FYI from experience: if I take any other opiate even codiene once or twice ( I have a hip out of place and occasionally kratom isn’t enough to handle the pain) it takes about a week for kratom to do anything afterwards. You might try potentiating although that can increase side effects too. Almost all potentators give me migraine when I mix them with kratom