Recreating entactogenesis via psychedelics (2cbFly) plus blood presure meds plus THC

[Hexagon Sun]

Not sure yet if it´s a breakthrought or just plain bullshit, but we have a Shulgin report, a Medical paper and some anecdotal evidence.

The shulgin post:

8.0 mg 2C-B-fly and 2.0 mg of rilmenidine at 12:30 pm; cannabis vapor at 4:00: The result was spectacular. I got a +4 experience from a pure imidazoline blood pressure medication! It is probably the entactogenic core of MDMA. I tend to think of the effects of MDMA as sweeter and gentler than this, but this was much stronger than any MDMA I have previously experienced. It turns out that 2.0 mg of rilmenidine is a very high dose. This is much more intense than the 0.2 mg of clonidine. Probably 1.0 mg would be adequate, and more comparable to a typical dose of MDMA. It also las ted longer than MDMA.... I took cannabis vapor. Within minutes my heart opened and the rilmenidine fully blossomed. At this point I could not feel the cannabis at all, although I had taken it only a few minutes before. I was astonished by the experience. Not because it worked, I had already seen the clonidine work. I was astonished by the depth of the experience, and I remained astonished for two weeks. I was ecstatic. Not ecstatic because it worked, rather the mental state was ecstatic, somewhat un-sober. I recalled Martin Ball calling 5-MeO-DMT the “crown jewel of the entheogens”. I felt that rilmenidine must also be a crown jewel. I described the state with superlatives.... Qualitatively, it is very hard to characterize the rilmenidine state, apart from the depth of it. At 3:52 hours she asked me how I feel, and I responded “It is like a peaceful lake, it feels eternal... in a peaceful sense”. Perhaps most telling, just 25 minutes after taking the cannabis, 3:55 hours after 36 taking the rilmenidine, I spoke to my wife about what for me were the core issues in our relationship. These are things that are very hard to discuss because they are painful, and discussion tends to lead to anger. But we discussed it peacefully. I expressed my sadness with tears. I believe this capacity for calm contemplation and discussion of painful personal issues is a core feature of the entactogenic state of MDMA, and here I was experiencing it with blood pressure medication.... For me it’s really, astonishingly among the best psychedelic experiences I’ve ever had. Unbelievable. (Shulgin 2016) Pharm 2, p. 26-27

The paper:
http://www.medical-hypotheses.com/article/S0306-9877(15)00472-7/abstract

Some reddit anecdota:

0. 2 mg clonidine and 9.0 mg of 2C-B-fly at noon, cannabis at 3:00 pm: I felt it strongly by 30 minutes. By an hour I was pretty sure that it is more than 2C-B-fly. By 1.5 hours I felt that my heart may open, but it did not. By 2.5 hours I felt that I had reached the plateau and was bored, and disappointed. I took cannabis vapor at 3:00 pm, and this was the beginning of a full heart opening. It took until perhaps 3:30 or so before the heart fully opened, but certainly it had done so by 4:00 pm. At this point I could not feel the cannabis at all. This beautiful state lasted many hours longer than the cannabis would be expected to. I felt that I was of a philosophical mind, and could write beautiful language about the human condition. I found that this state is what makes life worth living. This is what I want out of life. I was not incapacitated in any way, and felt that I could go through life in this state, and would be better for it. I felt the rebirth of my love for my wife, no small thing. I have taken 2C-B-fly several times at various doses, and it was always relatively boring. This was completely different, much more than 2C-B-fly alone. It was spectacular that the primer/probe method worked. Clonidine (unlike 2C-B-fly) is a beautiful psychedelic. I felt that I recognized a sensibility of continuity in my thoughts, e.g. thinking about the changes we go through as we mature from childhood through adolescence into adulthood. I observed: “I believe that I feel a sense of continuity, in that I exist in the moment, and in the time around it. I occupy a greater temporal breadth. This provides a great connection.” I was very present, but not just in the moment. (Shulgin 2016) Pharm 2 , p. 25

A reddit thread about the question:
https://www.reddit.com/r/researchchemicals/comments/5xod19/2cbfly_rilmenidineclonidine/


Personally I would take it with a giant grain of salt, but could be interesting to keep exploring the relationship between imidazoline agonist, psychedelics, and maybe the inclusion of THC for the sake of science

 

[Solipsis]

My question is: can you ensure an empathogen experience to be boring as shit with an imidazoline blocker? Unfortunately the only I₁ antagonist I see is also an alpha blocker, might very well be unsafe!

 

[IamaBonobo]

I wonder if part of the perma-tolerance effects of MDMA has anything to do with these imidazoline receptors.

 

[Hexagon Sun]

All good questions. The thing that confuses me more is the need for THC in this combo. Clearly MDMA has not cannabinoid activity. Probably the whole combo is quite questionable, but researching the imidiazoline aspect could led to some surprises

 

[iksaxophone]

What is meant by the opening of the heart? Is that a literal description of crashing blood pressure, or a metaphor for a state of mind?
I have to say the idea of taking recreational doses of blood-pressure medication seems a bit risky to me.

 

[Solipsis]

Pff I'd say the cannabis in the proposed theory is just there to account for everything Shulgin ranted about? Cannabis potentiates and synergizes with so many things that it seems truly farfetched to theorize that there may be a special mechanism.

Also I would bet good money that we should not look to imidazoline receptors to explain MDMA magic based on this limited information. Plenty of more typical sorts of desensitization from MDMA on neural pathways, it acts on a lot of things... this imidazoline thing is intriguing at best but don't underestimate the novelty factor.

Opening of the heart is supposed to be a metaphor for a state of mind, or rather of mind-body since it seems to involve various bodily systems which are together also likely behind what are often called body load, body high, perceived "energy" like chi or chakra's etc. Various vital organs in your chest cavity have their own nervous centers (in connection with the brain of course), a bit like a mini-brain but very sensation / feeling, autonomic regulating, and reflex based... add to that endocrine systems and the like and you can account very generally not only for bodily feelings we have when sober but also the ones we can feel on psychedelics which can be highly amplified.

So, opening of the heart is apparently a description of effects that are associated with empathogenic, entactogenic and emotional/sensational effects and all kinds of feelings that can occur in your upper chest. The best sober example of this would be butterflies in your chest when you are in love.

Kundalini theories are about excitation of these nervous centers, how they can sync up, and how this syncing can be a rising sensation of energy just like nervous anxiety can also rise high or low in your body... you don't want to let anxiety rise very high or it will give you tightness in the chest and encumbered breathing.

Holistic descriptions of these phenomena can get really esoteric and involve a lot of spiritual talk. We can trust that there are people who train to become really conscious of these sensations and also control them in a way and stimulate them... such personal experiences and the wisdom shared about yogic practices can take all kinds of shapes and sizes but it may also start to shift in belief since these experiences can quickly become ineffable.

So yea taking empathogens is not an easy way for accomodating open heart surgery or anything...

Yes I too would take all of this with a grain of salt and recommend experimenting with drug combinations like these... Seems like Shulgin stumbled upon it by accident.

It should be checked that all of this is not the product of mere enzyme inhibition or induction by the blood pressure meds causing metabolic interactions.

 

[Volsam]

My question is: can you ensure an empathogen experience to be boring as shit with an imidazoline blocker? Unfortunately the only I₁ antagonist I see is also an alpha blocker, might very well be unsafe!

I think Rilmenidine and Clonidine are Imidazoline receptor AGONISTS. There is Agmatine, which is a safe OTC supplement and is also an Imidazoline agonist (besides being a pretty good supplement overall).

So far I have tried combining 18mg 2C-B-Fly with 800mg of Agmatine and 500mg of Phenibut - I was pleasantly surprised that the dysphoric heavy emotional component of the fly trip was replaced by mild but definite entactogenesis - I felt open emotionally and a lot happier than with my previous trials with just 2C-B-Fly. More trials needed to establish consistent results but it's worth investigating IMO.

As for cannabis - it has different effect on different people and mixing it with any psychedelics is just not a good choice for many. I do like it mixed in though, but in moderate amounts and mostly during afterglows.

 

[Hexagon Sun]

I find the psychs to be the potentially more heart opening substances, given a correct set, setting and maybe a bit of luck. How can we be sure that the open heartness is not just the psych doing his thing?

Did you feel a different kind of open heartness you never feel before?