Tapering RC-Benzos - I don't know where to start....

[JoEhJoEh]

Hi,

since Oktober last year I'm taking massive amounts of RCBenzos no other RCs. No I'm sick of it!!! I want to have my normal life back, my normal weekends with friends - because I don't want them to see me fully upside down I spent nearly no time with them anymore at the weekends. Additionally my brain is a mess. I can't remember the tiniest things and so on.

Please help me, I don't know how to start tapering and with wich substance. I cannot go to a clinic because I'm selfemployed and because of the fucking corona I did not earn money the last 6 weeks.

I did never count how much I took, but I'm sure never under 10mg and the highest or lets said normal one was sureley 50 mg of everything, mostly mixed.

I'm desperate, it was my own stupidity - and I want to get rid of this.

Is there anybody who can please help me to taper down?

I would so much appreciate that.

Thanks.

JJ

 

[Vastness]

Which benzos, specifically?

(Please try not to use the term "RC" unnecessarily, I know everyone says it and it's not against the rules, so do what you want, but it's a pet peeve of mine . All drugs were RCs at some point, and it's an incredibly unhelpfully broad classification spanning a vast range of substances with vastly different effects. If you start thinking in terms of classes, and subclasses, ie, ~benzo, ~thieno, ~triazolo, and/or effects profile, ie, short acting, long acting, sedating, manic, whatever... it will make you into a smarter drug user and you'll automatically get a better understanding both of what you're taking, what to expect, and how to use them more safely. You will then also be able to pass this knowledge onto others in a coherent and useful way rather than just not having a clue what you're really taking, as is the case with a lot of people, sadly...) /ok, petty rant over.

There is a fairly well known but effective tapering program which involves switching to a long acting benzo like diazepam and slowly reducing the dose. Part of the reasoning for this - IIRC - is that diazepam is long acting and has active metabolites which means the risk of serious withdrawals is extremely low. As you probably know withdrawal from benzos and some other GABAergics can be fatal - your best bet honestly is to do it with a doctor's supervision.

So, again, what benzos? And in what doses? 10mg could be insignificant to completely incapacitating depending on what we're talking about here... mostly mixed??

You've been taking an unknown quantity of an unspecified collection of benzos of - if not unknown - at least unspecified, again. This brings me back to my explanation about the problems of thinking in terms of "RCs" and grouping such drugs under one stupidly wide umbrella. We need more data here. And in future track your usage at the very least, even if you don't keep abusing them you'll at least have some clue what kind of state you've got yourself into.

Hey I just realised actually I remember you posting very specific lists of the benzos you were taking in the How High Are You thread. You posted chemical names and specific quantities there so obviously you have some clue, you're not just an indiscriminate pill munching monster like I assumed you might be, I must admit, so I do apologise...

Maybe track back through your posts there so we can get a better picture of what level of dependence you have.

Either way though, I believe the default approach would still be switching to an appropriate dose of diazepam and tapering from there. I'll have a look for the method if you can't find it yourself.

 

[JoEhJoEh]

Hi Vastness,

I'm a therapist working in the medical sector with people and during the week I smoke my joint before I go to bed. On the weekends it was something different before Lockdown, i have always been a high dose user. The problem is, i didn't count.

But perhaps let's start with all the stash I have at home:

Flubromazolam
Etizolam
Bromazolam
Clonazolam
Pyrazolam
3-Hydroxyphenazepam
Nitrazolam
Diclazepam
SL.164 (which i never tried because my researches I always do about a new substance let me get frightening)
Pagoclone (also not even tried because of lack of evidenzbased info)
from time to time (every few months) Xanax prescribed from my doc
Oxazepam (I just bought because here the physicians taper off more with Oxa- than with Diazepam)
Flunitrazepam (for sleeping, but 2-4 times a week)

I also take Amphetaminsulfate because of my ADHD - now you know why I have such a big affinity for substances that make me calm.

Doses, oh my God:

Mixed from 10mg per day to 50mg per day or more. Today its 10 mg, 4 mg Diclazepam and 6 mg Bromazolam.
I feel okay, but when i start work again I don't know what then happens. I'm in such a fear oh a tonic-clonic seizure, you cannot imagine. And yes, I know a lot about the substances I take. That's why I never touched Pagoclone or SL-164 because I could not get proper medical information about that two. I know what I do, but I want to stop.

If i forgot something pls feel free to ask again.

Thanks a lot for your help.

JJ

EDIT: I forgot to say why I do this and you will not believe it's sleeping. As an ADHD I have never slept through, perhaps a few times in childhood, so this is how it started. Then you get higher because the drugs don't work (Yes, I know that song ) anymore and anyhow

AND THIS POINT IS NOW

I have to stop that. But I'm so scared because of my sleep. One example I take all that shit during the day, let's say 30 mg of whatever - it lets me sleep - but just hours. Others are dead when they take that. People get blackouts over 20 hours from 0,5 Clona.

WHERE AM I???
WHAT HAVE I DONE???

Oh FUCK!!!!!!


EDIT: Dont think I want to be high during my normal day, no! It's just because of sleeping. I can ingest 20 mg CLonazepam and i get just a little tired. But w.hen i the presribed 100 mg Seroquel take, I CAN SLEEP. WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK????? Why am I doingthis??
Im so desperate i cannot tell you.

 

[Vastness]

Alright well it sounds like to be honest you do know enough that you could figure out how to get off these if you tried. I think the main problem is your typical ADHD disorganisation compounding what would otherwise, perhaps, be a more manageable problem of just dosing too frequently, by losing track of what you've taken throughout the day. If you want to actually STOP using benzos, then your best bet, still, is to work out a taper plan and stick to it. I just did a quick google and found this (didn't want to link the site because I was concerned it was a bit too mainstream and maybe prohibition/total-abstinence leaning, maybe I'm wrong there but anyway:

A Valium taper by itself requires dose reductions of 5 percent, 10 percent, or 25 percent every week of a patient’s scheduled rehabilitation. A 25 percent taper example can be found below.

Week 1: The patient enters clinical care and prepares for their treatment. They are provided with their typical daily dose of Valium. No reductions take place at this time.

Week 2: Valium dose taken down by 25 percent.

Week 3: Valium dose taken down by another 25 percent.

Week 4: 50 percent is sustained.

Week 5 – 8: 50 percent of initial dose kept the same for four weeks.

Week 9 and Beyond: Dose taken down by subsequent 25 percent intervals until withdrawals no longer arise in the absence of the drug.

So Step 1 is to figure out what dose of valium you need to be at a safe, comfortable place, not at real risk of seizure, and go from there. I just re-read your post and I see you mentioned you got Oxazepam instead, fair enough, if that's the accepted practice there I'm sure there's a good reason for it. Recreationally I always heard that oxazepam was pretty dull but that's not relevant here of course. The variety of substances you use with potencies I'm not familiar with means I can't tell you what dose would be a good starting one, there might be some trial and error but be safe and also don't give yourself a pass to dose higher than you need in the name of safety.

It's interesting you mention you have ADHD, I actually suspect I have that myself, I read Gabor Mate's "Scatterred Minds" which I would really recommend, if you're into reading and it really opened my eyes why I've found life such a struggle at times. I don't have the "H" component though, not really, my deficit is more being prone to prolonged vegetation in analysis paralysis whenever I have to organise my thoughts enough to make a plan and actually fucking do something useful. I experimented recently with self-medicating with Amphetamine Suphate, just recently finished it up following a few days where I used way above the recommended dose and sufferred for it. For sure it helps for focus but for me the negative effects are terrible. I often am driven to benzos in the aftermath - or even during, now and then - so I'm not surprised that you use both these classes of drugs at the same time. I would venture to say that for someone who already has trouble sleeping amphetamines may not be the best treatment for your troubles, but I'm not your doctor, of course... Amphetamines do work great for a lot of other things of course but maybe it's worth exploring other options.

I'm also not at all surprised that seroquel was more effective in helping your sleep than clonazepam (even though for sure the much clonazepam would make me catatonic). Seroqual is a fairly modern, targeted substance, whereas benzos on the whole are very blunt instruments for almost anything that they are prescribed to do.

Finally... maybe you just have a naturally high benzo tolerance to some extent? Mine isn't as high as yours but I've never been able to get much of anything from more than 20mg valium, sometimes 30+, even when I had no tolerance at all to speak of. Do you recall a time you used less - or has the tolerance been fairly constant - if the latter I'd say it's a good sign potentitally althogh I wouldn't be comfortable saying much more than that.

Actually - just one FINAL point - you don't necessarly need to follow the plan above - although it may be prodent to do so if you doubt your ability to plan things yourself. Diazepam obviously is know to be very low risk... but if there's another substance you like better - do some research into the duration of effects, experiment, and then maybe just stick to that one, following the same procedure. You could even try it with more than one, but obviously organisation is something you struggle with and therefore it's probably best to keep it as simple as possible, then maybe when you've moved past this, if you want to continue using in a more safe, sustainable manner, you can figure out an inviolable, concrete schedule that you must adhere to, should you br do inclined. Even that might not be the smartest idea of course, I don't know you, it's something I'd probably try if I was in your predicament, once I felt more in control again, but not until after a long, extended period of complete abstinence from the class

 

[JoEhJoEh]

Alright well it sounds like to be honest you do know enough that you could figure out how to get off these if you tried. I think the main problem is your typical ADHD disorganisation compounding what would otherwise, perhaps, be a more manageable problem of just dosing too frequently, by losing track of what you've taken throughout the day. If you want to actually STOP using benzos, then your best bet, still, is to work out a taper plan and stick to it. I just did a quick google and found this (didn't want to link the site because I was concerned it was a bit too mainstream and maybe prohibition/total-abstinence leaning, maybe I'm wrong there but anyway:


So Step 1 is to figure out what dose of valium you need to be at a safe, comfortable place, not at real risk of seizure, and go from there. I just re-read your post and I see you mentioned you got Oxazepam instead, fair enough, if that's the accepted practice there I'm sure there's a good reason for it. Recreationally I always heard that oxazepam was pretty dull but that's not relevant here of course. The variety of substances you use with potencies I'm not familiar with means I can't tell you what dose would be a good starting one, there might be some trial and error but be safe and also don't give yourself a pass to dose higher than you need in the name of safety.

It's interesting you mention you have ADHD, I actually suspect I have that myself, I read Gabor Mate's "Scatterred Minds" which I would really recommend, if you're into reading and it really opened my eyes why I've found life such a struggle at times. I don't have the "H" component though, not really, my deficit is more being prone to prolonged vegetation in analysis paralysis whenever I have to organise my thoughts enough to make a plan and actually fucking do something useful. I experimented recently with self-medicating with Amphetamine Suphate, just recently finished it up following a few days where I used way above the recommended dose and sufferred for it. For sure it helps for focus but for me the negative effects are terrible. I often am driven to benzos in the aftermath - or even during, now and then - so I'm not surprised that you use both these classes of drugs at the same time. I would venture to say that for someone who already has trouble sleeping amphetamines may not be the best treatment for your troubles, but I'm not your doctor, of course... Amphetamines do work great for a lot of other things of course but maybe it's worth exploring other options.

I'm also not at all surprised that seroquel was more effective in helping your sleep than clonazepam (even though for sure the much clonazepam would make me catatonic). Seroqual is a fairly modern, targeted substance, whereas benzos on the whole are very blunt instruments for almost anything that they are prescribed to do.

Finally... maybe you just have a naturally high benzo tolerance to some extent? Mine isn't as high as yours but I've never been able to get much of anything from more than 20mg valium, sometimes 30+, even when I had no tolerance at all to speak of. Do you recall a time you used less - or has the tolerance been fairly constant - if the latter I'd say it's a good sign potentitally althogh I wouldn't be comfortable saying much more than that.

Actually - just one FINAL point - you don't necessarly need to follow the plan above - although it may be prodent to do so if you doubt your ability to plan things yourself. Diazepam obviously is know to be very low risk... but if there's another substance you like better - do some research into the duration of effects, experiment, and then maybe just stick to that one, following the same procedure. You could even try it with more than one, but obviously organisation is something you struggle with and therefore it's probably best to keep it as simple as possible, then maybe when you've moved past this, if you want to continue using in a more safe, sustainable manner, you can figure out an inviolable, concrete schedule that you must adhere to, should you br do inclined. Even that might not be the smartest idea of course, I don't know you, it's somethin, I'd probably try if I was in your predicament, once I felt more in control again, but not until after a long, extended period of complete abstinence from the class

Thanks a lot I'll reply to you later.

Thanks for your effort to help me.

JJ

 

[JoEhJoEh]

Some taper off with Diclazepam, what is your meaning about that?
And because of my ADHD, first i'm medicated properly and if I REALLY WANT TO FUCKING DO SOMETHING I DO FUCKING HELL!!!!

JJ

There is also another problem now, because I mixed all the thing always and they have all different half-life, how can i know with how much Oxazepam I should start? NOONE should know it until Im back to the JJ I have been

Fucking extremely short half life, really and fuck my own brain, you stupidest thing on earth. I took mostly Clonazolam,
Flubromazolam and so on ............ But in between RCBEnzoes or PharmaFUCK with a much shorter halflife. I didn't care these moments I just want to be calm and lay down on my sofa. So it is a big Issue for me know to know with how much should i start.... A physical benzo withdrawal lasts about 10 days, yeah? Let's see if i can manage this, and a friend of mine always looking at me when it comes to the really hard times in the lowest dose. I read that in Ashton Manual and couldnt believe how much people were taking, they tapered off sometimes very fast because they just feel good, but when they are going below the 10 mg-border they really fuck up.

I mean - I can bear a lot really, also psychologically, but I'm scared like hell I have to admit. Not becaue the tapering but because sleeping and please--- i don't want to have a tonic-clonic seizure...

I have 3 BLlister Carbamazepin 300 mg at home, does that help against seizuring. Addidionally I eat a lot of Magnesium and Vitamin C.

Oh Man.

I'm so stupid.....

 

[Jabberwocky]

try not to beat yourself up for being stupid- you are not. its easy to blame youself for things like this, and lets face it we aren't beyond reproach when we end up with drug habits we can't control, but its more complex than that.

benzos are really hard to get off- there is something called the ashley manual (google it) which people use to get tapering regimes, but you would need to work out how to translate these RCs into doses of 'standard' benzos.

you also really need to get some psychological help to establish what the underlying issues are that are causing you to use like this. i'd never have maintained being clean for any period without that.

 

[JoEhJoEh]

try not to beat yourself up for being stupid- you are not. its easy to blame youself for things like this, and lets face it we aren't beyond reproach when we end up with drug habits we can't control, but its more complex than that.

benzos are really hard to get off- there is something called the ashley manual (google it) which people use to get tapering regimes, but you would need to work out how to translate these RCs into doses of 'standard' benzos.

you also really need to get some psychological help to establish what the underlying issues are that are causing you to use like this. i'd never have maintained being clean for any period without that.

Hi,

I don't know why everybody thinks I'm underinformed but I know the Ashley manual by heart. But:

For my special case I'm lost with that manual because she treats people that are addictet to pharmabenzoes.... And how should I know because all the mixing where to start with a different one? I will do it with Oxazepam, that's for sure. But if I imagine how much i took the last 6 weeks, phew, I would have to eat 2 packages of it in one day?

What do you guys think about carbamazepine ? I really don't want to seizure, I'm so scared of that - I'm not scared because of pain but seizures - pheeew...


JJ

EDIT: I have been privately 2,5 years in psychotherapy, i have a psychiatrist and so on. They say both the same: I like to calm down because I heave aheave very impulsive form ofADHD. NOthing else happened to me, thank god.

 

[Jabberwocky]

i can honestly say you are getting no where with therapy if you are using like that, its clearly not working. are they addiction specialists? i had intensive inpatient therapy while massively dosed up on benzos every day, all it did was transform my anorexia into a benzo addiction, didn't help the underlying problems at all.

i don't know anything about the specific benzos you are using, so can't offer advice about how to translate doses for a tapering schedule. have you told a doctor about your using so you could get a precribed tapering schedule?

i don't understand how if you are seeing a psychiatrist who has diagnosed ADHD you aren't been prescribed proper medication for it. its a bit odd because usually people with ADHD self medicate with stimulants but whatever floats your boat i guess.

i am sorry that you thought i was implying you are underinformed, i just meant to point you to a useful resource, with the caveat you need to translate the doses.

 

[JoEhJoEh]

i can honestly say you are getting no where with therapy if you are using like that, its clearly not working. are they addiction specialists? i had intensive inpatient therapy while massively dosed up on benzos every day, all it did was transform my anorexia into a benzo addiction, didn't help the underlying problems at all.

i don't know anything about the specific benzos you are using, so can't offer advice about how to translate doses for a tapering schedule. have you told a doctor about your using so you could get a precribed tapering schedule?

i don't understand how if you are seeing a psychiatrist who has diagnosed ADHD you aren't been prescribed proper medication for it. its a bit odd because usually people with ADHD self medicate with stimulants but whatever floats your boat i guess.

i am sorry that you thought i was implying you are underinformed, i just meant to point you to a useful resource, with the caveat you need to translate the doses.

You know what the only reason is I don't tell my psych.

I'm ashamed.

JJ

 

[JoEhJoEh]

Another question guys:

What do you think: should I take Carbamazepin as an anti-cramping med every day? And if yes, how much?h

When there are 10 different benzoes with 10 different halflifes wouldnt it be better to quit one after the other?

JJ

 

[JoEhJoEh]

And please always do think about that I take nothing during my working week from monday to friday. For this I have Seroquel 100 mg to sleep and a big joint. nothing else.

It got so much because sitting at home 6 weeks because of the corona-lockdown and I didnt know what to do, so I took the drugs and let me feel allright. Im NOT taking them every day.

JJ

BUMP EDIT:

Can I use Carbamazepin when i mdosing off? Anybody done already? And how much? I have such a panic of seizuring!!

 

[Jabberwocky]

i really would tell your psych- i understand how difficult it is, how shameful it feels to have got into a situation like this, but its their job to listen to this stuff and help get to the bottom of your problems so you can work a way out them together. i had it rammed into me so many times in rehab, guilt and shame are feelings we use on, but we create a cycle of using to mask the shame, then feeling more ashamed. please try and pysch yourself up to take the plunge and tell them about your issues. also, can you go to your local drugs services? they will have tailored help, including a doctor specialised in addiction who can help you with a safe taper.

regarding different half lives- i think its better to try and switch to things with a sort of long to medium length half life. i think this is one of the reasons diazepam is typically used. its very very difficult to taper on drugs with half lives less than 6 hours because you have to dose so often, and conversely things with a really long halflife will take ages to taper, and likely prolong withdrawal. i'm afraid i didn't get off benzos with a formal taper plan, and i masked the withdrawal by cross addicting onto heroin (bad idea), so though i understand the fear of quitting benzos and endangering your life, i don't have any good practical advice.

you're not alone in ending up using loads cos of the lockdown, i have a friend in a similar situation. apparently suicides are way up. really don't beat yourself up, try and be kind to yourself.

 

[JoEhJoEh]

i really would tell your psych- i understand how difficult it is, how shameful it feels to have got into a situation like this, but its their job to listen to this stuff and help get to the bottom of your problems so you can work a way out them together. i had it rammed into me so many times in rehab, guilt and shame are feelings we use on, but we create a cycle of using to mask the shame, then feeling more ashamed. please try and pysch yourself up to take the plunge and tell them about your issues. also, can you go to your local drugs services? they will have tailored help, including a doctor specialised in addiction who can help you with a safe taper.

regarding different half lives- i think its better to try and switch to things with a sort of long to medium length half life. i think this is one of the reasons diazepam is typically used. its very very difficult to taper on drugs with half lives less than 6 hours because you have to dose so often, and conversely things with a really long halflife will take ages to taper, and likely prolong withdrawal. i'm afraid i didn't get off benzos with a formal taper plan, and i masked the withdrawal by cross addicting onto heroin (bad idea), so though i understand the fear of quitting benzos and endangering your life, i don't have any good practical advice.

you're not alone in ending up using loads cos of the lockdown, i have a friend in a similar situation. apparently suicides are way up. really don't beat yourself up, try and be kind to yourself.

Hi,

I will do this, when it's decided, its decided. Problem nr. 1 now: tomorrow i start working again, but (thanks corona!!) just 2 hours, that means i can get home and my colleagues dont see me too much. BUT: What or how many Oxazepam shoud i ingest? I know that the first part is the easiest (i mean from coming down to perhaps 20.... i'll so it like that: 50 mg morning/midday/evening, but i take that carbamazepin because Im so scared to seizure.

I by myself have no clue. I try to drink as much water as i can. and anything else, im just so much desperate.

Thanks a lot for your kind help.

JJ

 

[JoEhJoEh]

Alright well it sounds like to be honest you do know enough that you could figure out how to get off these if you tried. I think the main problem is your typical ADHD disorganisation compounding what would otherwise, perhaps, be a more manageable problem of just dosing too frequently, by losing track of what you've taken throughout the day. If you want to actually STOP using benzos, then your best bet, still, is to work out a taper plan and stick to it. I just did a quick google and found this (didn't want to link the site because I was concerned it was a bit too mainstream and maybe prohibition/total-abstinence leaning, maybe I'm wrong there but anyway:


So Step 1 is to figure out what dose of valium you need to be at a safe, comfortable place, not at real risk of seizure, and go from there. I just re-read your post and I see you mentioned you got Oxazepam instead, fair enough, if that's the accepted practice there I'm sure there's a good reason for it. Recreationally I always heard that oxazepam was pretty dull but that's not relevant here of course. The variety of substances you use with potencies I'm not familiar with means I can't tell you what dose would be a good starting one, there might be some trial and error but be safe and also don't give yourself a pass to dose higher than you need in the name of safety.

It's interesting you mention you have ADHD, I actually suspect I have that myself, I read Gabor Mate's "Scatterred Minds" which I would really recommend, if you're into reading and it really opened my eyes why I've found life such a struggle at times. I don't have the "H" component though, not really, my deficit is more being prone to prolonged vegetation in analysis paralysis whenever I have to organise my thoughts enough to make a plan and actually fucking do something useful. I experimented recently with self-medicating with Amphetamine Suphate, just recently finished it up following a few days where I used way above the recommended dose and sufferred for it. For sure it helps for focus but for me the negative effects are terrible. I often am driven to benzos in the aftermath - or even during, now and then - so I'm not surprised that you use both these classes of drugs at the same time. I would venture to say that for someone who already has trouble sleeping amphetamines may not be the best treatment for your troubles, but I'm not your doctor, of course... Amphetamines do work great for a lot of other things of course but maybe it's worth exploring other options.

I'm also not at all surprised that seroquel was more effective in helping your sleep than clonazepam (even though for sure the much clonazepam would make me catatonic). Seroqual is a fairly modern, targeted substance, whereas benzos on the whole are very blunt instruments for almost anything that they are prescribed to do.

Finally... maybe you just have a naturally high benzo tolerance to some extent? Mine isn't as high as yours but I've never been able to get much of anything from more than 20mg valium, sometimes 30+, even when I had no tolerance at all to speak of. Do you recall a time you used less - or has the tolerance been fairly constant - if the latter I'd say it's a good sign potentitally althogh I wouldn't be comfortable saying much more than that.

Actually - just one FINAL point - you don't necessarly need to follow the plan above - although it may be prodent to do so if you doubt your ability to plan things yourself. Diazepam obviously is know to be very low risk... but if there's another substance you like better - do some research into the duration of effects, experiment, and then maybe just stick to that one, following the same procedure. You could even try it with more than one, but obviously organisation is something you struggle with and therefore it's probably best to keep it as simple as possible, then maybe when you've moved past this, if you want to continue using in a more safe, sustainable manner, you can figure out an inviolable, concrete schedule that you must adhere to, should you br do inclined. Even that might not be the smartest idea of course, I don't know you, it's something I'd probably try if I was in your predicament, once I felt more in control again, but not until after a long, extended period of complete abstinence from the class

Hi and thanks for your long reply, but it will never possble to know how many Oxazepam I need in the beginning - It have to be reaaly much - REALLY MUCH. Tomorrow i start work and its not possible to stand in front of a patient totally out of order. I will take Carbamazepin doesnt matter what and a light dose of Oxa wich for me are 100 mg and nobody knows. I have to work just 2 hours tomorrow and i will go to a helping-aid that is called GREEN CROSS, they know what they do and can hopefuly tell me a plan to taper off. HOpefully.....

JJ

EDIT: From now on I'll write a drugs-diary. In the first time I HAVE to go on in one or two bigger steps, provided by Carbamazepin in the mornings plus100 mg oxazepam and evenings and what do yot think about diclazepam? would this perhaps an option to taper? I have one bottle here, it's nearly a full litre.

 

[JoEhJoEh]

Hi guys,

why noone answers my Carabamazepine-ouestion?

JJ

 

[MagickalKat777]

Carbamazepine is a really nasty drug. I would avoid that one like the plague personally. My old psychiatrist forced me to take it when I was tapering from diazepam back in 2013 and it put me into a state of complete withdrawal which ended up screwing that taper when I only had 5mg left to go and I ended up back on 20mg and had to start tapering again in 2018.

I was going to suggest tapering with diclazepam but honestly from reading your posts, you really need to be working with a psychiatrist and you need to be honest about what you have been doing. It takes a lot of willpower, patience, and support to start tapering and stick to it because it’s probably the most hellish ride that you will ever have. I don’t want to set you up for a massive relapse and the fact that you have read the Ashton Manual and don’t feel confident in figuring this out for yourself tells me that you don’t feel you can do it on your own either.

 

[Vastness]

Do you find that there are significant qualitative differences in the experiences of all the different benzos you are taking?

I ask because just speaking for myself, although there are obviously some differences, and like everyone I have my own preferences - on the whole the benzodiazepine class isn't one I've been too interested in exploring in depth because, generally speaking, they are all very similar and on the whole not that interesting - with a few notable exceptions.

Given that you do seem to have been driven to explore the less common examples of this class in a little more depth, perhaps your own experience has been different?

Would be very interested if you could provide a little more detail on the subjective differences in each of the substances you've listed, as you perceive them, and I think this would be both interesting and useful to others also.

 

[Gregorio888]

Hi JoEhJoEh,

Reading your opening post gave me chills. 5 months ago I was in a similar space. I had a 12 year Kratom habit and a 2.5 year RC benzo habit. I tried I think about 20 benzos overall, but mostly did Clonazolam and flualprazolam, later trading the Flu for diclazepam, and then trading the Clonazolam for Etizolam. I decided I NEEDED to taper the hell off. My habit got to where I was taking 40+ mg of Etiz AND 60+ mg of Diclaz a day. I wish I was making that up. I'm a RN. I also couldn't let anyone know what I was doing, so I decided to taper off very slowly. About 1.5 years in to my habit I started a journal writing down exactly what I was taking and when, cause I didn't really know what I was doing either. From there I figured I'd see what I was doing, and start cutting back a bit every week or two, following the Ashton protocol. Focusing mainly on the short acting Etiz first and then slowly tapering down the long acting Diclaz.

What I found after 1 year of my journal was that... I couldn't do it. My "taper" journal, was just a journal of ever increasing benzo (and other drug) use. I didn't even ever like benzos that much, I considered them one of the least interesting classes of drugs, but yeah. It was really bad. I too was constantly beating myself up for being so stupid. I KNEW the dangers of benzos going in. I'm highly self educated and also nursing school educated in it. And I just, let it happen...

Finally, last November, I freaked out and told on myself to my family, who were all shocked. No one knew I was a drug user let alone a drug addict. In December, I went to a hospital for detox. The first 24 hours was absolutely terrifying. They didn't give me the amount of Benzos I needed at first, and I had 2 seizures in that first 24 hours. Got sent to ICU and then neurology and put on 12mg of Klonopin/day. After another 24 hours it really wasn't bad at all. I was tapered off from 12mg K-pin over the next 4 weeks in the hospital and rehab. The first 3 weeks of the 4 I really didn't feel much other than some anxiety. The last week my anxiety did get really bad, and I started having myoclonic jerks regularly throughout the day. After finally jumping off they were happening pretty frequently. I could not sit still and was squirming around constantly. (The muscle jerks were the same as that feeling when you're falling asleep and suddenly spaz and wake yourself up. Annoying, but nothing horrible)

But after 48 hours completely off, I had a huge sense of relief. I kept thinking, really? Some bad sleep and muscle jerks and restlessness is it? I had read so much about benzo withdrawal, I was convinced I was doomed for a full year or more of horrific withdrawals. It WAS a scary first 24-48 hours. And that last week tapering and the first week off weren't fun. But it was totally manageable. 2 weeks off and all significant withdrawals were gone. A month off and I started noticing my memory was shockingly improved. I knew my memory had been hampered while on benzos but I didn't realize by how much. I'm now 5 months off, and the idea of touching benzos scares me. Opiates still have a pull on me, though I think about them less every day. I'm going back to work in I think 3 weeks (new job, still as RN. I could definitely have gone back to work a couple months ago, but I'm fortunate enough that I've been able to take a bit more time.)

If you want to taper off I would agree with what the others are basically saying. First you need to know what you're doing, so record your use. Then just start following the Ashton method, trying to eliminate the short half-life benzos for long acting ones. From there cut back per the guide. As you've said you know how it works. It's doing it that's the problem. If you can say more clearly exactly how much of what you're taking, myself or others might be able to give more specifics about which benzos to cut and when.

That said, you should be open to the reality, that you might need help. I didn't write all this as a, "I couldn't do it without help, so neither can you" speech. I sincerely hope you can do it on your own. There are a fair amount of people who do do it on their own. I couldn't. Even though I had all the necessary knowledge, time, and resources. I thought I was somewhat unique being a secret, working-professional addict. I didn't hang out with anyone who did more than smoke weed and drink on the weekends. Since getting clean I've met a number of secret addicts who seemed like they were ok until they weren't. Some who got caught at work, some who got help before getting caught like myself. It is MUCH better to "take medical leave," then to get caught at work, possibly ruining your career, or worst of all, hurting someone else (while driving or whatever.) At one point in my rehab, out of 18 of us, 3 of us were RN's. There was one therapist in there. A couple guys in business of various sorts. And the rest were people doing other jobs, or out of jail, homeless, etc.

It was TERRIFYING admitting my problems. I didn't admit them to my job, and no one in the nursing world other then a couple close friends that I told have ever found out. But if I had I killed someone driving or screwed up at work and hurt someone else I would have never forgiven myself. I'm really really glad I told on myself and got help, and now I can get back to work (and life!) with a clear head. I haven't posted on bluelight since I got clean, but your post really made me feel I should share a bit of my story! I'll try to check back in this thread and help if I can. If you have any questions about my story, how to taper, or how to get help don't hesitate to ask. If things were done a little differently I might have been able to avoid the seizures. I'm out of time now but if you want to know exactly what my taper/other medications looked like I can post it later. One way or the other you can get off that shit. I seriously wish you luck whatever you do.

Peace


TLDR: I've been where you are JoEhJoEh. I got out of it. I had to get help and I'm really glad I did, despite my fears of what would happen if everyone knew my secret as a drug addict RN. If nothing else start recording your daily use, what drugs, at what amount, at what time, and I'll help if I can. Best of luck

 

[JoEhJoEh]

Hey,

I decided to taper off with diclazepam. I'm sorry I cannot tell you how much I took from this or that but it was sometimes surely 50 to 60 mg, in the last time mostly Bromazolam and 3-Hydroxyphenazepam. Not every day, but a lot of days.

If I had the time and the money (I'm self employed in the medical sector and have no income since 8 weeks, I would go to a clinic, but thats not possible now. Because they kicked me out for no reason of my former practice I'm standing here alone and cannot even talk about my problems to anyone.

So i try to taper off with Diclazepam following the Ashton Manual and I hope it works.

I'm so scared I cannot tell you.

JJ