Race relations hit a new low in Sydney

[Groovstar]

Police arrest riot ringleader suspects

 

[Wacky]

Firstly,I agree with Killarava2day posts.Which I found to be excellent .

This is what I have to say:-

Personally,I think politicians like 'John Brogden' do NOT help the situation.In fact he would make situations worse.He's chucking up 'populist' ideas that maybe ok in theory, but in reality make situations WORSE.Eg: Bulldozing the area would cause more violence.If your house/area you live was being bulldozed down,how would you react??

I feel right wing politicians are making things WORSE - There answer to most things is to be be "tough" on people that do the wrong thing eg: "Be tough on these trouble makers" .Short term it may work("Personally,I DO NOT even think this") but long term it will cause MORE resentment towards police and the like .
How about these so called leaders,look at WHY people are doing these things???? This same question should be asked for the following issues too:-

*War on Crime

*War on Drugs

*War on Terror

Prevention of these things is better,then having to find a cure to problems once they happen and punishing people which in many cases make situations worse.For society to be better, these TOUGH but IMPORTANT questions need to be asked or bad things will continue.....

 

[killarava2day]

This is unfair if you ask me, keep in mind that Lewis Moran, violent drug dealer and father of notorious gangster Jason Moran, was promptly released when his son was gunned down. Despite the fact that it was considered a risk to his life and could potentially trigger more killings in the ongoing underworld war. Yet white Australia can't find it in its heart to let this grieving man the same privelages purely because he is black

TJ's dad to miss funeral

23feb04

THE father of the boy whose death ignited the Redfern riot will not get leave from jail to attend his funeral tomorrow.

TJ Hickey's father, Ian West, the boy's aunt, Marilyn Cargill, and three uncles, will stay behind bars.
Ms Cargill was refused bail on Friday on charges related to the riot.

A Corrective Services spokesman said it appeared unlikely West would attend the funeral under escort.

"The security concerns are such that it's unlikely that officers will escort Ian West to the funeral," he said.









The jail commissioner would review Mr West's case, and that of three uncles also in custody, but any reversal of the decision was unlikely, the spokesman said.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,8760794%5E662,00.html

 

[Jubas]

i'm still alive.. just been busy =/
i think macksta is right however, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. you seem unable to acknowledge the fact that the govt is trying to accomplish an extremely hard task. you don't know the full implications of any actions they take, nor do groups such as acoss. only the govt can have the best idea of action to be taken. they have to tread a fine line on govt expenditure, and what actions they implement. individual organisations can always make recomendations and cry murder when they aren't implemented, but if the govt does accept them, and they fail, its the govt who takes the blame/fall. you also fail to understand my point that criminal actions *must* be maintained. leniancy in this situation is not going to solve anything. If you make the way of life (as you put it) - which is illegal to the rest of society - easier, then do you think crime in the area is going to increase or decrease? its going to increase. you constantly refer to police targetting aboriginal people. the deaths in custody scenario appears tenuous at best. I'm getting fed up of our country having to be so politically correct in everything they do. My aunt recently arrived from south africa, and she was appaled at the level of political correctness. this coming from someone who lives in a country hell bent on equalising indifferences. In south africa, people say it like it is.
You seem very quick to criticize my lack of understanding several points on a number of occasions. i find this extremely hypocritical. may i ask what further education you have had / experienced that i might not have? are yuo an expert on indigenous affairs? we base all arguments on the facts we have. we're both not experts.. get over the fact that people don't know everything that you do, and try to explain it to them. criticizing them for not knowing is much easier, and basically useless. But, that seems to be your general direction in argument. Blame the govt/police/white middle class people. Blame is easy to apportion. hell, i could easily lay blame at the feet of aboriginal people for not fighting back when england invaded, so that we could get over so many of the problems now. its ridiculous. if you had try to take even *one* positive viewpoint in this discussion, it would lend it a great deal more credibility than constant criticism. Your reference to red necks is typical of someone taking your viewpoint. they don't agree with your argument, therefoer they are redneck/racist. this is a general viewpoint which infuriates me. i voice an opinion which i believe in. if anyone can show me better, its quite likely i will change my view. however, that will never be done by a) insulting my intelligence b) hypocritically telling me i know nothing about the situation or c) insulting me.

At least I provide sources to back my claims up, rather than basing them opinion as you seem to do

really. my opinion? well, i seem to think that i've provided a number of sources for my discussion, and i trust to my education a great deal. opinions are not always based on nothing. My view of govt expenditure is an opinion. do i have to post links to justify it?i think not. i've learnt, i have knowledge.. this is what i base my opinion on. posting links which at times you don't even understand (re stats deaths in custody) is even worse than not posting sources.

For all of these reasons i find your posts disappointing. And in the larger scope they seem to be common reasons i find other's opinions from the same stance equally disappointing. Why am i posting this? well i've had a few days to mull it over (though i've hardly though of it ). I went back and read all your replies, and found them to be described as above. Finishing up on posts that insult those of different viewpoints, based on instances of hypocrisy. How can i even begin to argue something as complex as this when you fail to acknowledge facts such as govt expenditure, instead focussing on things they don't do. i can give you a 50000 word essay on things the govt doesn't do. I know the govt isn't doing everything that it *could* do. It could divert all tax income to solving the problem. It could racially cleanse our country so the problem doesn't exist. but as i've said above, govts have to walk a fine line, and constant unconstructive criticism isn't helping.

===========================================

ok.. now onto the actual topic again. i've had my rant

Except that is not how native title works. It is about access to PUBLIC LAND and waterways that is held on a LEASEHOLD basis, it is crown land which would remain so, except that Aboriginal people have a legal basis to move about in.

i also had a quick look into the native title scenario..

Indigenous Australians make a native title claimant application they are seeking recognition under Australian law of their native title rights. For example, an application may claim the right to go onto land to practise traditional ceremonies, to gather food and bush medicines, and in some cases, to live on the land and share in the return from resources of the area.

(http://www.nntt.gov.au/publications/1021616069_19692.html)

I find this bit very interesting. as you said, they can't take land from private owners.. but why would they need to if they can share in the return from land that has only had valued to it by settlers?

See, all people like you do is pass judgement on Aboriginal people when something lke this happens. Meanwhile, you spend your entire life blissfully ignorant as to the positive things going on everyday. Take the Cape York Land Council for example, why not have a look at the sort of things they are doing before you start making outrageous claims like this: http://www.balkanu.com.au/people/or...ns/councils.htm

right back at ya. but look at the govt instead. where did that organisation get its funding from?

Stop treating a socio-economic problem as a criminal problem, which is something our current police force is not equiped to deal with, for starters.

My view on this point is simple. In your own arguement you gave poverty as the reason for crime of this nature.
If you are suffereing from a disease which gives you a rash cause by some virus in your stomach. do you:
a) ignore the rash completely and try to treat the stomach virus (for which there is no simple / timely / definite cure).
b) treat the rash and leave the stomach virus alone in the hopes that it goes away
c) treat the rash in a constant manner, and try to treat the stomach virus.

you choose c).

let me draw the link.

a) ignore crime - try to treat poverty: an ok idea.. but ignoring crime or giving it leniancy, is only going to make the rash/crime worse.

b) keep crime levels as they are and ignore the poverty causing them. : not gonna work is it.. this seems to be what you think the govt is doing.

c) keep crime levels as they are, and try to correct the poverty causing the crime in the first place.

c again yes?

Jesus, even impoverished Sri Lanka has overcome trachoma, yet for some reason Australia does not have the resources, nor the will, to do anything about the fact that 80% of all Aboriginal children have potentially blinding trachoma

From the WHO's (ex?) director :

JOHN STEWART: Director general of the World Health Organisation Dr Grohamond Brutland says eye care must begin with basic infrastructure and the community.

(http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/s201417.htm)

the infrastructre is exactly what the govt is trying to change. there were plans to rebuild the block. but now they've been delayed. john brogden suggested bulldozing the block and he was called a racist. the fact is that the block is an area of poverty, and we can't expect health to be effective in poverty. we need to stop tiptoing around the topic and simply demolish the area and try to rebuild some sort of adequate housing/pride in the area.

Sigh. we all know about the govt's spending on defence systems, and i've already admitted to you twice (?) that i disagree with the expenditure as well. but $2.5bn is still $2.5 bn, and a chunk of our govt expentiture.but what govt has enough money to satisfy everyone? that thin line comes in again.

Me, your lack of knowledge in this area is only further compounded by the fact you won't acknowledge your ignorance. And yes, the past is the past, but the thing is that it is living standards TODAY which are substandard, history just puts the issue into context. I'd wager you know very little about how denigrating a disadvantaged socio-economic situation can be.

sigh
you think i'm ignorant, and i have to admit to it straight away? unless you can prove my ignorance i'd suggest you don't try to point it out. i could point out yours in a number of situations, but that's not the point in a constructive conversation is it? get my point?
i'd also wager you know very little about how denigrating a disadvantaged socio-economic situation can be. if you've studied it, great, tell me! my point arises again. neither of us are experts, and neither of us have all the answers.

Somehow, I don't think you fully appreciate what it is like to live in a disadvantaged community where you can't even get a job let alone access to comprehensive education or health-care.

ah.. here's your experience.
you'll admit that your circumstance are highly different to those being faced by aboriginals today.

It's not a "sham", it may have been exaggerated somewhat but the fact remains that:
... continue quote

so now you admit exaggerating. finally. it always happens with racially fuelled arguments. i've already pointed out several times why the quote your pasted occurs.
if a person commits 27 times more crime, they should be arrested 27 times more.
(don't take this as an exact statement, please)
they aren't released back into society because there is a high chance of reoffending. AND in your own words, 'lets not make this a criminal issue'. so lets not make it one.. how can we not, if you keep on posting reference to criminal issues?

But that is from the Royal Commission which you have disproven merely by glancing at two seperate table of figures... Man, your a fucking genius!

see, the insults start. it was only a matter of time.
What i was referring to was the hype surrounding police targetting. in fact, the royal commission, or the section you've quoted says nothing about police targetting aboriginals more. In fact, the exerpt supports my argument. it says NOTHING about police targetting.. merely states the facts. it has no link to MOTIVATION at all!
and no, i'm not going to read the entire document..

Our government was responsible for extinguishing Native Title

i had a look at the national native title tribunal, and it still seems to be active, with the last verdict given in december of 2003 or something. if this isnt the native title you're referring to, please let me know.
In fact, on the 17th of november 2003, :
100th Indigenous land use agreement a native title ‘milestone’ occured.
how then has native title been extinguished?

So do drunk white teenagers, so what's your point? Especially seing as the rioters were drunk teenagers, shit if you didn't destroy your fair share of public property as a teenager then you must have had a fairly sheltered upbringing.

and as such, they should be treated equally. white families come from hard backgrounds as well.. the law should be applied equally. applying it unequal is going to have no positive effect.

Maybe when trends like this are reversed:

you have to appreciate the fact that any situation as imporant as this takes *TIME*. it can't happen overnight. any reference to other country's facts are useless. our expenditure/policies are not miracle cures. we're lagging behind other countries' initatvies, and as such they are getting their results before us. comparing results with a timelag of decades or more in this area are ridiculous.

Well, how do you explain the disparity in conditions between indigenous and non-indigenous Australians? All you seem to be saying is that they are somehow blame, as if they are somehow inherently inferior to us. How else do you explain it if you dismiss so many of the points I have raised? Everybody expects me to provide answers, well i'm puting the onus back on you. What would YOU do about the massive socio-economic disadvantage faced by Aboriginals today?

a fair enough stance to take. once again my reference to time comes into play here. i would do nothing different from what the govt has done. its too early to judge the impact that they have and will have. giving criticism on something that hasn't had its full impact isn't really worth it. i'm not blaming aboriginals for their situation. (or if i had, i'm sorry it came across that way - except the riots, and at times police views).

It's meant to be, but as an economist i'm sure you can appreciate the fact that monetary matters are what motivates governments these days.

money motivates everyone. its what everyone wants, and can never get enough of.

Today, no living Australian can claim innocence,

i tell you what, i can bloody well claim innocence. ask the average person on the street if they think they're innocent.

It's simple, unless you give us back our nationhood, you can never claim your own

Rob Riley, Cheif Executive Officer, Aboriginal Legal Service of Western Australia

gee, and thats not going to be biased is it? 8( why are you quoting propaganda as fact?

==============================================

Raz's post:
(don't be scared raz! )

i think your points are very valid.. and i think that its important we don't forget the past.. but i think we also have to draw a line in the sand when we think about moving on from it. constantly focussing on our mistakes isn't going to solve anything. creating a solution is what has to be on the agenda. For this reason, i dont think issues such as 'saying sorry' are as important as they've been hyped up to be. i think that they would provide a sense of closure, but i don't think overthrowing a govt would really be useful would it

they're bitching about the past and which fails to see that a lot of people are angry and feel powerless to positively change anything in the present.

you're quite right.. they might feel powerless to change the present.. so lets focus on this rather than trying to change the past.

Whenever stuff like this comes up, it always comes down to what "we" as a community have or haven't done for Aboriginals, as if they're a separate entity from our community alltogether.

i think it works both ways however. whenever a pro-aboriginal group speaks out, they put it in terms of us vs the greater community.

Wacky:

Eg: Bulldozing the area would cause more violence.If your house/area you live was being bulldozed down,how would you react??

how else do you try and help to alleviate poverty? how do you try and get rid of slums so that people can live in better conditions?

Short term it may work("Personally,I DO NOT even think this") but long term it will cause MORE resentment towards police and the like

i definitely agree with you here.. that is, if we don't try to make a move against the cause of the crime.. ie poverty... ie bulldozing houses to get people out of a 'slum lifestyle'.

killarava2day re the father not being allowed out.
i can't really remember the moran incident.. but was it as fuelled as the current situation? racism/hype is extremely powerful.. i think the authorities had to consider the fact that there could be more violence and riotting if the father attended.. but then, neither of us know the facts about the situation.. so i can't really say either way. it's sad that a father can't attend his son's funeral for whatever reasons though...

====================================

and in conclusion...
i hope this discussion starts to move forward again.. and might start to be able to agree on some things. it was good at the start, but took a dive recently... (eg insults etc)
peace out..

 

[apollo]

[least constructive post ever]

Bah

[/least constructive post ever]

 

[Jubas]

http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=136515&storyid=917228

i also found this an interesting read.. it talks about the similarities between redfern and harlem, and acknowledges the need for 'sensitive' redevelopment

edit:
bleh apollo!
[/useless edit]