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Discussion Questioning HR Philosophy

Foreigner

Bluelighter
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Mar 18, 2009
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To start with, this is a really complicated subject with many, many factors so we're never only going to be able to boil things down to "one cause".

The situation in cities on the west coast of Canada and the U.S. is really, really bad. The homeless populations are skyrocketing along with violent crime and drug addiction. Most of the major cities have responded with "harm reduction only" policy, creating a revolving door where violent offenders are in and out of the justice system, with no solution in sight. Part of this "pure HR" approach is that drug addicts are see as victims of social determinants and all of their bad behaviour comes from their poor lot in life. In British Columbia, the government's policy is that drug addiction is a disease and there is no cure; addicts will be addicts for life and so the only solution is safe, decriminalized supply. But you have so many former addicts speaking out about this.

This documentary, although having a conservative slant, accurately describes how bad the current situation is in Vancouver, BC.

I have never been attacked on the streets by a random person in my life, and in the past year I've been violently assaulted three times in my city, all by homeless people who are drugged out. Each time involved the police and each time nothing really happened to the offender. They were arrested, booked, and then I saw those people on the streets again within the same week. That's how I know that what the above video is talking about is accurate.

The city and province's response has been to decriminalize all drugs and emphasize a pure harm reduction policy. I think "pure" is the key word here. If I assaulted someone tomorrow as a sober person, I would see a prison cell. But if I was on drugs when I did and claimed hardship, I'd get a slap on the wrist. Maybe I'd be forced into detox for 30 days, but then when I hit the streets I'd be right back at it.

We can all agree that the "war on drugs" is a dismal failure, but is a pure harm reduction approach appropriate either? In Vancouver, the police have had their hands tied for over a decade due to a far left-wing city hall. "Catch and release" has become the policy for drug users, even though they attack people, break into homes, disrupt businesses, etc.

I look at a country like Portugal that introduced decriminalization and HR, but they went full tilt. They poured hundreds of millions of Euros into de-escalating services, detox, etc. They opened all the doors. I don't see that happening in these left-wing Canadian/American cities. They're removing the penalties for being a drug user but they're not opening enough doors.

What is the answer? I'm seriously asking. I don't want to see people arrested for petty drug use, but I also don't think "harm reduction" is practical if it's just transferring harms to non-drug users through violence, property damage, and disruption of livelihood. This whole situation stinks of mismanagement.
 
Calgary/Edmonton both have epidemics of on public transit consumption (trains and stations), meth and fentanyl. Its disgusting I'm so sick of hearing how these people are victims, instead of criminals. Just disrespectful to use drugs in public like that. Its got much worse since the pandemic, like exponentially worse, there are so many encampments now, not long until we get Brazil style shanty towns. Justice system is a joke, people OD in prison all the time, so that's not going to help, being sent there. I am thinking of just leaving, not back to Ontario as its getting bad there too, I think its time to quit weed and move to Japan. I'm at the point now where I want HR people to explain why I should want the number of fatal ODs to go down. Oh no one less violent deranged person doing drugs on the train, yeah no I'm totally out of sympathy for this crap.
 
HR and not prosecuting violent crimes are two different things

They're not though. Promoting only HR for drug addicts while they turn around and commit violence against their communities is anti-HR for the community. If I assault someone while I'm drunk at a bar I don't get to use the excuse that I was intoxicated, yet a meth addict who's been in and out of the system can commit repeat crimes and nothing happens. Watch the video. In Vancouver, the same handful of offenders are committing most of the violent crimes.
 
I am thinking of just leaving, not back to Ontario as its getting bad there too, I think its time to quit weed and move to Japan. I'm at the point now where I want HR people to explain why I should want the number of fatal ODs to go down. Oh no one less violent deranged person doing drugs on the train, yeah no I'm totally out of sympathy for this crap.

Canada in general is becoming a leftist hell hole, and I say that as someone who used to identify as liberal. Can't get on board with the contemporary leftist politics, they are too delusional. I'm thinking of bugging out to Central America. At least it's topical. Japan's not doing too hot, I hear. They have a population crisis (low birth rates) and lots of social problems. Though, at least they do better at hiding it in public... unlike here where I saw a guy smoking crack on public transit a couple weeks ago.
 
HR and not prosecuting violent crimes are two different things

Harm reduction needs to start taking the harm addicts do to the community into account. Them not getting AIDS is not important to me, kids not stepping on needles is.

I am opposed to safe supply now too. I have heard numerous addicts say they prefer fentanyl, and have no reason to believe they won't sell the safe supply drugs. It will create another wave of addicts.

I live near Calgary's safe consumption site and it has brought nothing but misery to the neighborhood. The people that live here are all against it, but rich suburban liberals are all for it. Of course they don't live near it, funny how that works. When this opened it was portrayed as this place that would get all sorts of people coming in, like construction workers, and secretaries, and none of that was true. Its in the hospital and one day while waiting to see a doctor I watched the comings and goings over several hours and it was 100 percent homeless people. That's the last place anyone should go to see functioning addicts. I don't care what drugs people do in their homes, or in private. I do fucking care about the sidewalk looking like a refugee camp and that I cant use the transit shelter because its been taken over by junkies. Things have gotten worse since the cops started ignoring possession, not better. People keep saying these junkies are victims and i am supposed to feel sorry for them. I started out that way but since 2019 its been a non stop barrage of in your face drug use and crime, its worn me down. The goodwill I had is gone. I suspect many people are turning against HR these days. You only need to live or work near a shooting gallery to see the damage it does to everyone else.
 
HR and not prosecuting violent crimes are two different things

Agreed. Violent criminals need to be locked up for the common good, regardless of their personal circumstances and level of accountability.

The arrangement described in OP reads like a stupid parody of harm reduction policy to me. It shouldn't be difficult to realize that doing drugs is not a crime and assaulting people is a crime.

I'm sorry you've had to endure 3 assaults because of retarded policy @Foreigner that's insane.
 
The arrangement described in OP reads like a stupid parody of harm reduction policy to me. It shouldn't be difficult to realize that doing drugs is not a crime and assaulting people is a crime.

Why is it a parody?

Maybe I need to explain myself better.

The province I'm in views substance use disorder as incurable 100% of the time. That's right. They are telling the public that addicts will be on drugs forever so there's no point in trying to force them to get off them. Their brains have been permanently altered and all we can do is damage control by compassionately enabling their use. This came out of the mouth of our provincial health officer herself in a press conference. Therefore, according to her, these people need safe supply and to not be treated as criminals. But it's like the system has given up on them. Some of them have serious mental health issues that they are self-medicating with drugs. While on drugs, they act out those mental health issues on the community. They shit and piss in the streets. They break into people's homes and steal. They accost patrons of businesses. They assault people. Then when they go before a judge, the judge hands down a ruling guided by the province's HR policy, which is basically nothing.

In the summer I saw a homeless guy walk up to an outdoor restaurant patio full of people eating dinner and spray a bottle of piss over everybody and their food while screaming his head off about how they were all after him. The police came and picked him up. Literally three days later that same guy was back on that same street again panhandling. Like what the actual fuck??

The HR doctrine and the violent assaults are connected. HR says that drug addicts are incurable victims and any acting out they do is because of their disease and reduced level of competence. Legally incompetent people can't be convicted of crimes. Yet there are no state-run facilities to put them in anymore while they are "incompetent", so they end up back on the streets.

Traditionally, incompetence has to be determined by psychiatry through a court ordered process. Now, thanks to HR policy, addicts are just are treated as de facto incompetent without any real investigation. This creates a catch-and-release justice system where addicts continue the cycle of homelessness, addiction and violence, all the while destroying the communities they live in.

I actually think that addiction SHOULD be in the community's face on a daily basis so that the drug problem remains transparent. My PROBLEM is that the government and institutions that have the power to remedy this are not doing a fucking thing about it. All it's doing is making citizens pissed off.

In my community, there are former addicts speaking out against this HR policy. They are saying that addicts CAN recover and lead a sober life, and how dare the PHO suggest that they are beyond hope.
 
HR says that drug addicts are incurable victims and any acting out they do is because of their disease and reduced level of competence.

I disagree. HR to me merely means that drug addiction is a health-related issue that should be addressed through the medical system, not a moral issue which should be addressed through the criminal justice system. Drug addiction does not give one a free pass to assault, rape, kill, etc. That's a ridiculous bastardization of the concept IMO

HR does not view drug addiction and mental illness through a nihilistic lens where everyone just shrugs their shoulders and says, "well waddaya gonna do?" To me what you're describing merely represents a bunch of government bureaucrats who are paying lip service to a concept in order to cover for their own inaction and incompetence

A policy of HR will not work if everyone is simply allowed to use drugs and rot on the streets in poverty and despair. It needs to be combined with proactive measures to get people back on their feet, give them assistance regarding their mental health, sense of purpose, dignity etc
 
I disagree. HR to me merely means that drug addiction is a health-related issue that should be addressed through the medical system, not a moral issue which should be addressed through the criminal justice system. Drug addiction does not give one a free pass to assault, rape, kill, etc. That's a ridiculous bastardization of the concept IMO

I'm literally repeating what the government of British Columbia has said in how it looks at HR policy.

HR does not view drug addiction and mental illness through a nihilistic lens where everyone just shrugs their shoulders and says, "well waddaya gonna do?" To me what you're describing merely represents a bunch of government bureaucrats who are paying lip service to a concept in order to cover for their own inaction and incompetence

A policy of HR will not work if everyone is simply allowed to use drugs and rot on the streets in poverty and despair. It needs to be combined with proactive measures to get people back on their feet, give them assistance regarding their mental health, sense of purpose, dignity etc

So what you're saying is that BC's approach to HR is not actually HR?
 
Why is it a parody?

Maybe I need to explain myself better.

The province I'm in views substance use disorder as incurable 100% of the time. That's right. They are telling the public that addicts will be on drugs forever so there's no point in trying to force them to get off them. Their brains have been permanently altered and all we can do is damage control by compassionately enabling their use. This came out of the mouth of our provincial health officer herself in a press conference. Therefore, according to her, these people need safe supply and to not be treated as criminals. But it's like the system has given up on them. Some of them have serious mental health issues that they are self-medicating with drugs. While on drugs, they act out those mental health issues on the community. They shit and piss in the streets. They break into people's homes and steal. They accost patrons of businesses. They assault people. Then when they go before a judge, the judge hands down a ruling guided by the province's HR policy, which is basically nothing.

In the summer I saw a homeless guy walk up to an outdoor restaurant patio full of people eating dinner and spray a bottle of piss over everybody and their food while screaming his head off about how they were all after him. The police came and picked him up. Literally three days later that same guy was back on that same street again panhandling. Like what the actual fuck??

The HR doctrine and the violent assaults are connected. HR says that drug addicts are incurable victims and any acting out they do is because of their disease and reduced level of competence. Legally incompetent people can't be convicted of crimes. Yet there are no state-run facilities to put them in anymore while they are "incompetent", so they end up back on the streets.

Traditionally, incompetence has to be determined by psychiatry through a court ordered process. Now, thanks to HR policy, addicts are just are treated as de facto incompetent without any real investigation. This creates a catch-and-release justice system where addicts continue the cycle of homelessness, addiction and violence, all the while destroying the communities they live in.

I actually think that addiction SHOULD be in the community's face on a daily basis so that the drug problem remains transparent. My PROBLEM is that the government and institutions that have the power to remedy this are not doing a fucking thing about it. All it's doing is making citizens pissed off.

In my community, there are former addicts speaking out against this HR policy. They are saying that addicts CAN recover and lead a sober life, and how dare the PHO suggest that they are beyond hope.

I think you describe succinctly why it's a parody. You didn't need further explanation. It's an interpretation of the basic concept of harm reduction which results in accepting, condoning and facilitating harm. I don't think the basic concept of harm reduction necessarily entails lenient judicial treatment of violent criminals just because they do drugs, or even necessarily entails treating drug addicts as chronic hopeless cases. To me harm reduction is pretty much just an acceptance of the fact that people do drugs and an ambition to minimize the harm from it by not treating drug use as a crime, and perhaps providing education and treatments.

You're free to have your own definitions of concepts and words. I don't care so much about the phrase "harm reduction" as i care about accurate information and not treating a basic freedom as a crime.
 
I'm literally repeating what the government of British Columbia has said in how it looks at HR policy.

I know. I was responding to the claim made in the quoted sentence.

So what you're saying is that BC's approach to HR is not actually HR?

Well, based on what you described it doesn't sound like they're doing much in the way of reducing harm

I know that Canada has enacted some policies which I've found very admirable from an HR standpoint, including safe injection sites and innovative approaches to opioid replacement therapy, etc. So maybe they are on the right track in some regards. The fact that random people are getting beatdowns in the streets from crazed drug addicts and people in power are just shrugging and muttering something about harm reduction just seems like craven stupidity, laziness or incompetence, though, I don't really see what that has to do with HR properly understood
 
due to a far left-wing city hall
The idea that there is a far-left government at any level anywhere in North America is laughable. Your city hall is liberal at best. If it was left-leaning in any meaningful way it would provide for the disenfranchised in more meaningful ways, i.e. free housing, free regulated supply. I don't see it doing any of that. Yes, catch and release may seem weird and a bit of a half-assed solution but there's a limit to how many people you can criminalize.

I don't have stats in front of me so the stuff you're bringing up is anecdotal, but if for argument's sake random attacks are on the rise, what do you think the cause is? Could it be by any chance because drug users are still subjected to a predatory drug market that has been completely flooded with a drug that requires dosing significantly more often than the one it replaced? Prohibition caused this, and I don't think I need to explain the logic. Fentanyl is cheap as hell, can be manufactured anywhere without poppy and is much, much more profitable. Years of governments at all levels not giving a shit about users, about homelessness (and all related real-estate issues), about disenfranchisement in general has helped the illicit drug supply thrive and generate the crisis we're seeing now.

People don't "prefer" fentanyl. From my understanding, fentanyl makes all other opioids useless. It's the only thing that can works anymore. And as I said, it requires redosing all fucking day, which isn't free.

Your so-called far-left government is basically doing the bare minimum (presumably because the carceral system is at capacity? talking out of my ass here, but I'm sure the cost of incarceration is part of the reasoning behind catch-and-release), with the unavowed hope that users simply die off. That's it.

The solution isn't a simple one, but it sure as shit isn't more police and prisons. If you want to fix the fentanyl crisis, start by dealing with the basic economic desperation of users by supplying them with drugs of known purity in known dosages (maintenance treatment - already exists on a limited scale but should be extended to everyone no questions asked if you ask me), give them free housing. Just letting them function as human beings is a pretty good baseline, wouldn't you agree? And if you feel the urge to ask "BUT WHO'S GONNA PAY FOR IT!?!?", this is known to be less expensive than repression!

The reason the current approach doesn't work is because it's neither here nor there. HR is good and great, but it's like applying a band-aid on a festering wound. Profound systemic change is what's required. (I doubt we'll ever see it, unfortunately)

I'm sure getting assaulted sucks and I'm sorry that happened to you, but in the search of solutions you might want to start by looking at the whole picture through the lens of economic warfare.
 
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