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Question on preparation for UK police visit regarding kratom
- Thread starter 3dmusic
- Start date
Forever Changes
Bluelighter
Maybe you're right and I haven't gone and studied the actual legislation, but just the wiki article clearly states that alcohol, nicotine, caffeine and foodstuffs are exempt from the PSA and it's pretty obvious why - Every herb and supplement sold in Holland and Barrett could arguably be described as 'psychoactive', as could most foods (sugar etc).
Whatever the logic, kratom is not exempt. It was mentioned in parliament when MPs were 'debating' the bill and customs seize it, so they obviously don't consider it exempt. Drug laws have never been logical after all
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
A few RC vendors have contacted me to ask what IS legal and what is not so I point out that the grey area is larger than the black and white areas. Kratom IS a 'traditional herbal medicine' and interestingly 'any compound presented as a medicine'. Now it does not detail what that latter phrase MEANS. In fact, one then has to refer to the Medicine Act... which itself has holes in it.
The thing you have to wonder about is whether its even worth the effort tp defend yourself tho - no lawyer you meet will have any special knowledge and will just kowtow to the police opinion. What can you do? Plead not guilty and go to crown court? Try and find a specialised lawyer online?
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
If you are taken to court, you will be provided with a perfectly competent lawyer gratis. BUT the CPS decision is based on only two questions:
1- Is their a reasonable likelihood of a prosecution succeeding?
2- Is it in the public interest?
I strongly suggest that if the CPS were to lose under UK law, any further attempts to prosecute would refer to the case and so would be unlikely to succeed i.e. they really do not want to RISK losing. It would therefore NOT be in the public interest to take the risk of proving kratom IS legal.
That is where it stands. Someone could systematically post 10,000 envelopes with tiny amounts of kratom in each and utterly overwhelm the Border Force, but if someone were to do that, who knows what MIGHT then get through?
1- Is their a reasonable likelihood of a prosecution succeeding?
2- Is it in the public interest?
I strongly suggest that if the CPS were to lose under UK law, any further attempts to prosecute would refer to the case and so would be unlikely to succeed i.e. they really do not want to RISK losing. It would therefore NOT be in the public interest to take the risk of proving kratom IS legal.
That is where it stands. Someone could systematically post 10,000 envelopes with tiny amounts of kratom in each and utterly overwhelm the Border Force, but if someone were to do that, who knows what MIGHT then get through?
Bleaney
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2021
- Messages
- 1,740
It's very clear that importation of kratom into the UK is illegal. There are no two ways about that..
Possession is another matter, that's where there is no clarity. It's a bit risky for the OP to keep kratom for the time being, in case he gets searched and any found kratom is somehow linked to the imported kratom.
On the other hand, If his house gets searched, I guess the OP could say that he bought the kratom pre-2016 when it was perfectly legal to do so and has stockpiled it ever since. Could it be proved otherwise?
But if there is any proof tying the OP to the purchase - a bank statement etc I guess the police could follow up. But if bitcoin was used and the email trail has gone, I don't know if they actually need to prove that the OP ordered it.
I guess any good defence lawyer would demand that the police prove the OP ordered it, or it could have been ordered maliciously or accidentally by a 3rd party.
Again none of this is legal advise, but there has already been loads of great advice in this thread.
There seems to be conflicting information re the legality of possesion of kratom
Its not listed on the following list of controlled subtances, which has plenty of far more obscure compounds. One might assume from this that it is not a controlled substance in the UK.
One site states the following@
goldenmonk.com
As of 2016, kratom has been labeled a Psychoactive Substance in the UK. However, some legal sources report that UK kratom legality is murky at best, which means there’s still the potential for a judge to interpret the law in various ways. At the present time, it is considered illegal to sell, import, or export kratom into the UK. Interestingly, though, simple possession is not illegal.
Another says the opposite:
kratom.org
Possession is another matter, that's where there is no clarity. It's a bit risky for the OP to keep kratom for the time being, in case he gets searched and any found kratom is somehow linked to the imported kratom.
On the other hand, If his house gets searched, I guess the OP could say that he bought the kratom pre-2016 when it was perfectly legal to do so and has stockpiled it ever since. Could it be proved otherwise?
But if there is any proof tying the OP to the purchase - a bank statement etc I guess the police could follow up. But if bitcoin was used and the email trail has gone, I don't know if they actually need to prove that the OP ordered it.
I guess any good defence lawyer would demand that the police prove the OP ordered it, or it could have been ordered maliciously or accidentally by a 3rd party.
Again none of this is legal advise, but there has already been loads of great advice in this thread.
There seems to be conflicting information re the legality of possesion of kratom
Its not listed on the following list of controlled subtances, which has plenty of far more obscure compounds. One might assume from this that it is not a controlled substance in the UK.
One site states the following@
What Kratom Vendors Ship Quality Kratom to the U.K.?
If you are looking for reputable kratom vendors that ship to the United Kingdom, Golden Monk has found the best of them. Read this guide to learn more!
goldenmonk.com
As of 2016, kratom has been labeled a Psychoactive Substance in the UK. However, some legal sources report that UK kratom legality is murky at best, which means there’s still the potential for a judge to interpret the law in various ways. At the present time, it is considered illegal to sell, import, or export kratom into the UK. Interestingly, though, simple possession is not illegal.
Another says the opposite:
Is Kratom Legal in the UK? - Kratom.org
Kratom is a plant indigenous to Southeast Asia. It is illegal in the UK because of its psychoactive properties.
kratom.org
- As of 2016, possession, sale, or import of kratom into the UK is banned.
Last edited:
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
It's very clear that importation of kratom into the UK is illegal. There are no two ways about that..
Possession is another matter, that's where there is no clarity. It's a bit risky for the OP to keep kratom for the time being, in case he gets searched and any found kratom is somehow linked to the imported kratom.
On the other hand, If his house gets searched, I guess the OP could say that he bought the kratom pre-2016 when it was perfectly legal to do so and has stockpiled it ever since. Could it be proved otherwise?
But if there is any proof tying the OP to the purchase - a bank statement etc I guess the police could follow up. But if bitcoin was used and the email trail has gone, I don't know if they actually need to prove that the OP ordered it.
I guess any good defence lawyer would demand that the police prove the OP ordered it, or it could have been ordered maliciously or accidentally by a 3rd party.
Again none of this is legal advise, but there has already been loads of great advice in this thread.
There seems to be conflicting information re the legality of possesion of kratom
One site states the following@
What Kratom Vendors Ship Quality Kratom to the U.K.?
If you are looking for reputable kratom vendors that ship to the United Kingdom, Golden Monk has found the best of them. Read this guide to learn more!
As of 2016, kratom has been labeled a Psychoactive Substance in the UK. However, some legal sources report that UK kratom legality is murky at best, which means there’s still the potential for a judge to interpret the law in various ways. At the present time, it is considered illegal to sell, import, or export kratom into the UK. Interestingly, though, simple possession is not illegal.
Another says the opposite:
Is Kratom Legal in the UK? - Kratom.org
Kratom is a plant indigenous to Southeast Asia. It is illegal in the UK because of its psychoactive properties.
- As of 2016, possession, sale, or import of kratom into the UK is banned.
READ the PSA itself;
Psychoactive Substances Act 2016
NOTE that medicines are exempt and then read the Human Medicines Act, it covers 'traditional herbal medicines'
So the PSA wouldn't apply.
Now how it deals with importation of a traditional herbal medicine... it doesn't. Because it doesn't deal with the importation of ANY herbal medicine and yet their is a huge trade. It MAY require the seller to adhere to certain legislation, but then we are out of criminal law. What I find lovely is that it still has a section on 'interpretation' which refers to EU directives... and the UK has left the EU.
Rudi Fortson K.C.
www.rudifortson4law.co.uk
Above is a link to the KC (then QC, obviously) that we used.
Above is HIS book and it's a good 800 pages but it gives key insights into what law is involved. I think it's still in my office somewhere... but I have book -walls, so I might take a few hours to find his specific walkthrough.
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Forever Changes
Bluelighter
^ OK, but Kratom may be a 'traditional herbal medicine' in Thailand or Indonesia, but I don't think it's ever had that status in the UK. You've never been able to buy it in Holland & Barrett, even before the PSA.
The whole thing's a mess because it's such a poorly concieved bit of legislation, relies on individual interpretations by people who probably have no knowledge of what they want to ban, and is an affront to the longstanding British legal principle that everything should be legal unless there's a law passed against it.
My interpretation is that kratom is legal to possess, but not to import or sell/supply.
to 3dmusic, clean your computers, remove the kratom (and anything else dodgy) you have from your premises by either throwing it away or burying it somewhere, and then you'll have the peace of mind that in the unlikely event cops show up at your door they won't find anything. When you think the coast is clear, you can get more kratom if you wish, but don't order from abroad again
The whole thing's a mess because it's such a poorly concieved bit of legislation, relies on individual interpretations by people who probably have no knowledge of what they want to ban, and is an affront to the longstanding British legal principle that everything should be legal unless there's a law passed against it.
My interpretation is that kratom is legal to possess, but not to import or sell/supply.
to 3dmusic, clean your computers, remove the kratom (and anything else dodgy) you have from your premises by either throwing it away or burying it somewhere, and then you'll have the peace of mind that in the unlikely event cops show up at your door they won't find anything. When you think the coast is clear, you can get more kratom if you wish, but don't order from abroad again
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
I would agree with you.
Still think it's funny that a 2016 law is reliant on EU directives.
Still think it's funny that a 2016 law is reliant on EU directives.
Forever Changes
Bluelighter
Because he's imported it from abroad and apparently still has a package held up in customs. It's probably fine, but if it were me I'd get it off my premises at least until any possibility of a plod visit is over
Bleaney
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2021
- Messages
- 1,740
It seems to be a bit of a lottery as to which police force you have, and whether they have the resources or inclination to follow up on a customs notification of a seizure of a controlled substance.
I can't think of any other good reason as to why some seizure notices are followed up with a police visit / raid and some are not.
I would imagine that many police forces are so stretched that they quite rightly focus their resources on going after 'bigger fish' rather than 'small fry'.
Maybe it just comes down to how whichever person in the police is feeling, when s/he receive the notification, and if he/ she can be arsed to follow up on it or not.
I can't think of any other good reason as to why some seizure notices are followed up with a police visit / raid and some are not.
I would imagine that many police forces are so stretched that they quite rightly focus their resources on going after 'bigger fish' rather than 'small fry'.
Maybe it just comes down to how whichever person in the police is feeling, when s/he receive the notification, and if he/ she can be arsed to follow up on it or not.
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Bleaney
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2021
- Messages
- 1,740
Yeah quite likely, or maybe just how much they have on at that time. Catch them at a busy time, or when they can't be arsed and you'll probably be spared the police raid.
If the seizure notice happened months or years ago I doubt that it will ever be followed up.
Obviously if anyone is foolish enough to try the same thing again, after they've already been caught once (and 'got away with it' first time- apart from having the seizure notice on their record), then they are really asking for a whole world of trouble.
If the seizure notice happened months or years ago I doubt that it will ever be followed up.
Obviously if anyone is foolish enough to try the same thing again, after they've already been caught once (and 'got away with it' first time- apart from having the seizure notice on their record), then they are really asking for a whole world of trouble.
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
Even with things that are technically illegal, it's utterly random and about all they seek from a buyer is that they make a statement that can later be used to press charges against a vendor.
But simple question - IF a compound is novel, how does ANYONE know if it's active in man? How would they test the sample? Animals would be VERY costly and anyone in drug design will tell you that activity in animal models often does not translate to activity in man. Even kratom would require them to test for presence of the actives... which will cost a LOT. I mean tens of thousands of pounds.
But simple question - IF a compound is novel, how does ANYONE know if it's active in man? How would they test the sample? Animals would be VERY costly and anyone in drug design will tell you that activity in animal models often does not translate to activity in man. Even kratom would require them to test for presence of the actives... which will cost a LOT. I mean tens of thousands of pounds.
SpiralusSancti
Bluelighter
Probably like in the movies. Some cop would rub stuff on gums and say – “Yeah, it’s drugs!”.
So let me check this. If I would like to open restaurant in UK and serve Coleus blumei as salad or something I’m fine? Coleus blumei is perfectly fine, neutral taste and looks so nice, I would serve it cooled and raw (sprayed with solution of salts, mostly NaCl and MgCl, and sprinkled with spices) over warm slow roasted lamb with baby carrots. That’s all fine, right?
But if I was to serve “maybe psychoactive salad” I would be prosecuted, right?
One more thing, what about LiCl, am I allowed to add some % to my home special salt mix?
Im posting this on behalf of the OP:
"it happened. Oh you didnt. Ten of them at dawn. I heard the door shatter and then they were on me. Dragging me to the door by my hair. They'd found the kratom you see. Ismene has started a gofundme page for me - they are looking at giving me all kind of time "
"it happened. Oh you didnt. Ten of them at dawn. I heard the door shatter and then they were on me. Dragging me to the door by my hair. They'd found the kratom you see. Ismene has started a gofundme page for me - they are looking at giving me all kind of time "
