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Question: Do men have the right NOT to be fathers?

I didn't say the child's life trumped anybody or anything. I really don't think this issue has anything to do with the child's life, it's the parent's choices.

If you are that set on never having a child, you have the choice to get a vasectomy, wear a condom, or not have sex. Once you choose not to exercise those choices, you put yourself at risk. A person has to be proactive about these things, not depend on someone else (the woman) to do it for them by taking birth control.

And no, I am not saying that having a child is a penalty for having sex that is justly deserved. Just like getting aids is not justly deserved for screwing up one time, but it happens, and you know the risks when you engage in the risky behavior.
 
posner said:
Well, that's making a very big assumption that the child/mother is on welfare, which is narrowing the scope of this discussion.

No, I'm not saying that the mother is on welfare, I'm only saying that you made the argument that you would have to pay taxes for the healthcare. That is something you do anyway for millions of people already. My point was not regarding this topic specifically, only in general, paying for millions of people's healthcare is something we already do. A government run healthcare system for all would be much better IMO than the welfare system already in place. I would much rather pay into something that I can benefit from also rather than welfare.
 
Baron said:
It still doesn't answer my question, though. If the child's life trumps all of the man's wishes, then it should trump all of the woman's, as well. There's a fairly glaring white elephant in the room that it doesn't seem like anyone's talking about.

If one is pro-choice (that's the key word here, choice), then there's no reason not to extend that choice to both parties. The problem is that the choice is being removed from one person, and if a child does result, there's generally no thought other than "Well, I can't afford it, so I'll go after this person who doesn't want it for money." That's not a personal choice. That's a choice which immediately comes down upon someone else. Subsidizing one person's own inability to see the entire road and be able to walk it themselves.

The child trumps everything after the birth, not before. Before that, the woman's body trumps everything.
 
I apologize, I didn't mean to appear to be singling you out, QE, with regards to the child's life trumping all. It was a call-back to the prior question about people saying "Too bad, suck it up," being anti-abortion or not.

Also, again, birth control can fail. Back to my suggestion of a pre-sex contract where both sides clearly outline their intents and the man can provide the funds for abortion or counseling if he falls on the side of not wanting one. He's providing the means to finance his choice. There's no reason that he should be forced to finance the woman's, other than society saying "The child must be paid for by two parents," when it gives the mother 100% of the options. That's highway robbery.
 
QuestionEverything said:
No, I'm not saying that the mother is on welfare, I'm only saying that you made the argument that you would have to pay taxes for the healthcare. That is something you do anyway for millions of people already. My point was not regarding this topic specifically, only in general, paying for millions of people's healthcare is something we already do. A government run healthcare system for all would be much better IMO than the welfare system already in place. I would much rather pay into something that I can benefit from also rather than welfare.

Well, we are talking about a huge difference in tax money. Also, while they converge sometimes (e.g. health care) they do not parallel.
 
posner said:
The child trumps everything after the birth, not before. Before that, the woman's body trumps everything.

And that's the crux of the matter. The woman has one hundred percent of the choices. Which should not be the case. I've heard (not necessarily on this board) about how poor women have to bear the child, give birth to it, nurse it, etc., when they have a choice whether to discontinue the pregnancy or not. Their choice that they made.

If one cannot make a personal choice without having to use someone else as a crutch for their own inabilities, then that's not a personal choice at all. That's a predatory choice. And here I thought we locked predators away. Tsk tsk. Guess not.
 
I agree with the idea of a pre-sex contract, but I don't think that excludes the man from being proactive about his choice.

I also think that along with that contract would come other factors to think about. I can surely see men thinking, ''well, it's written in black and white, I have no responsibility if she does get pregnant, so why wear a condom.''

That is why I think it sounds good but would never work.
 
The possibility of not wearing a condom in the contract, I admit, is one that I hadn't considered. That is an excellent point. And it's something that would need to be considered in the wording of the contract. But it would still be valid. If the couple chooses to engage in activities (read: sex) with her using birth control of any sort (pill, implant, ring, foam, sponge, nightshade tea, whatever), then that is a choice that they both made and the pro-activity had come before all else with the signing of the contract. Both parties are aware of what may occur, and both parties know what the outcome would be.

That, I think, is all this case is about. The fact that a woman has an opt-out case at any time. Not have sex. Abortion. Adoption. A man has only one. Women have been (rightly) clamoring for equality, and now that they have the upper hand in this regards, it all seems to be about NOT-equality anymore.
 
Baron said:
And that's the crux of the matter. The woman has one hundred percent of the choices. Which should not be the case. I've heard (not necessarily on this board) about how poor women have to bear the child, give birth to it, nurse it, etc., when they have a choice whether to discontinue the pregnancy or not. Their choice that they made.

If one cannot make a personal choice without having to use someone else as a crutch for their own inabilities, then that's not a personal choice at all. That's a predatory choice. And here I thought we locked predators away. Tsk tsk. Guess not.

The problem is you want men to 1. either be absolved of all responsibility for a child if they do not want it in some sort of pre-pregnancy contract; or 2. to somehow force a women to (either) abort (or give the child up for adoption).

The first is not going to happen because you are talking about a post-pregnancy situation where the child exists. The child does not deserve to be without because of his/her mother's transgressions.

The second is not going to happen because you are talking about people having an extreme level of control over another's body. While the State has the power to force people to do (or not do things) it is extremely uncommon and it is loathe to do so- and generally will only do so in cases of a higher public need or when the person has done something legally blameworthy. As it stands, giving birth to a human being does not fall into either of those categories because, in the larger scheme of things, it is seen as a good thing.
 
Seems to me that forcing a man to pay for an unwanted child, and in many cases, "oopsed" children, is having an extreme level of control over someone else's body, and forced by the State.

I see no problem with men being absolved of responsibility if women can be. Though giving birth to a human being being a good thing is a different discussion altogether, since that does go into the idea of welfare, "don't breed what ya can't feed," etc.
 
Baron said:
Seems to me that forcing a man to pay for an unwanted child, and in many cases, "oopsed" children, is having an extreme level of control over someone else's body, and forced by the State.

That isn't true at all. You are talking about control over someone's pocketbook.
Money does not equate with body.
 
So indentured servitude paying for a child that they had no option over is not an extreme intrusion?

From a lawyer smarter than myself:

"However, should the woman decide to continue her pregancy against the wishes of the man, current law permits her to impose a large share (often more than half) of the direct costs of child support on the man without regard to his interests. Public prosecutors will aid her to collect the money, using the strongest sanctions available in our society (up to and including imprisonment). (In fact, the man will suffer more than pecuniary damage, because the public authorities will hound him and prospective future mates will shun him.)

"In every other area of the law (contract, tort, even ordinary family law), actors are obliged to mitigate damages from conflicts.

"For example, consider A, an invitee of B, who while parking his car in B's driveway inadvertently crashes it into B's house causing a water leak. Besides other damages, A will be liable to B for water damage--but only up to the point when B reasonably could and therefore should have shut off the water. Under our law, B may not allow the water to run until her house is entirely washed away then demand that A build her a new one. (Of course, B may summon the aid of a plumber at A's (eventual) expense.)

"If A and B agree together to demolish and replace B's house, they may both be held to their joint undertaking. But B may not oblige A against his wishes to finance a new house when he is responsible for no more than modest damage to the old one.

"The duty to mitigate damages is supported by strong public policy. Most importantly, it averts waste. Also, it minimizes fraud, and it restrains intemperate acts of vengeance which might provoke feuds. The duty to mitigate damages should apply in every dispute.

"When a different sort of encounter between A and B results, not in water damage, but in pregnancy, B should face the same duty to mitigate damages. If A does not desire a pregnancy and the eventual child, the law should require B to mitigate damages (induce abortion) or assume sole responsibility for the costs of continuing her pregnancy.

"That's not symmetric!" you cry, "only the woman has to make a hard choice and face the pain and risk of abortion."

"Nonsense. First off, you've neglected to mention the pains and risks of continued pregnancy, which exceed those of induced abortion. Second, once the pregnancy occurs, some pain and risk are inevitable. They're a "sunk cost." Only the additional pain and risk of continuing the pregnancy can be avoided. So the woman doesn't face a hard choice with regard to pain and risk. Her choice is only as difficult as her personal desires make it.

"If the man didn't want a baby, he should have kept his trousers on."

"It takes two to tango. If the happy couple's contraception fails (whether by accident, negligence, fraud--it doesn't matter) then the pregnancy is clearly the result of misfortune not mutual intent. The duty to mitigate damages applies in precisely this sort of situation--when things are not going the way all the parties want them to. Public policy counsels us against permitting one party to unilaterally impose stiff costs on another.

"Look, forbidding abortion and requiring child support are flip sides of one policy--they stand or fall together. If we force women to carry (nearly) any pregnancy, then we may logically force men to pay for their share of the consequences. But once you admit the choice of terminating an inconvenient pregnancy, you lose your rationale for forcing a party who doesn't desire that pregnancy to pay for its consequences."
 
And it's a bit of a stretch to say that paying for your own child is indentured servitude.

Analogizing car crashes and home demolition/building to child-bearing is only going to frustrate you further. There are a lot of higher public policies involved in this discussion that are simply not present in those cases.

Childbirth/pregnancy/etc. does not fall under contract theories of law.
 
If he didn't include a clause which included something to the effect of "This contract shall be considered null and void if the child in question is proven to be not of Insert Name Here's biological genetics," then that's his own mistake for signing.

I'm not seeing how that relates, other than another case of men being screwed financially by women who tell them that it's theirs and are roped into paying when it isn't.
 
It's a clear cut question of equality. Let's start at the point where the woman is pregnant. This could be because no birth control was used, or because birth control was used but failed.

The woman now has a right to choose. She can choose to "get out" now, so to speak, to avoid a drastic change in her life both socially and financially. This is a right that has been fought over very strongly, and the world is a much better place now this choice is available.

The man, on the other hand, is at the mercy of the woman. She holds the power to let him continue with his life as it is, or to force him into a life he has not chosen, working to give money to her and her child. Somebody mentioned slavery earlier, and while of course this particular situation isn't as bad as the previous horrors inflicted on innocent people, one person having the power to control another's life, and to force them to work to give them money is a pretty good definition of slavery.

The child's welfare must of course be taken into consideration if it is decided by the woman that she will have the baby. The state should clearly ensure the welfare of all its citizens and this means that if they are poor, they should be guaranteed enough money to have a proper childhood.

As far as I can see it, you'd be against this in two situations:

You are anti-abortion, and thus believe that once pregnancy has occured there can be NO CHOICE about whether or not to have the baby. In this circumstance both parents must be equally responsible for bringing up the child.

You fervently believe that the better-off in society should not be taxed to ensure the welfare of those who are too poor to live a decent life without help. In this situation, where the mother who has chosen to keep the child is not herself wealthy enough then she must clearly get the money from somewhere. Better to screw over some poor bastard who isn't yourself, rather than paying taxes to help people, I guess...
 
Well, I thought it was pretty funny anecdotally.

How about this: your sense of being screwed is not synonymous with the government's sense of you being screwed.
 
Rhombus said:
Somebody mentioned slavery earlier, and while of course this particular situation isn't as bad as the previous horrors inflicted on innocent people, one person having the power to control another's life, and to force them to work to give them money is a pretty good definition of slavery.

There are a lot of people who would be very offended by that comparison.
 
Rhombus said:
The child's welfare must of course be taken into consideration if it is decided by the woman that she will have the baby. The state should clearly ensure the welfare of all its citizens and this means that if they are poor, they should be guaranteed enough money to have a proper childhood.

As far as I can see it, you'd be against this in [edit: this] situations:

In this situation, where the mother who has chosen to keep the child is not herself wealthy enough then she must clearly get the money from somewhere.

I hope I don't seem like I'm contradicting my former points, but I do believe in the idea of "If you can't feed them, then don't breed them." A child is a personal choice. Is it repellant to tell someone "You made your bed, now lie in it?" when they had every option of removing themselves from the situation? Likely coldhearted and ungenerous, granted. But if a woman chooses to have a child knowing that she will be solely responsible for it, then I'm not sure why it's someone else's responsibility in any direction.

I have no problem with free pre-planning during gestation. "Here's how much you will need to spend. Here's how much you make," sort of thing. It's not the child's fault, certainly, but I see no reason to subsidize the mother at all. It's perhaps barbarous and callous to take the child to an orphanage or other foster home if the mother cannot take care of it, but I see no reason to subsidize the mother's life at all when she makes such a poor decision, other than she's hoping that someone will give her money because she made a personal choice.
 
who's subsidizing the mother? the father? if so, he's paying for things for the child's care, not subsidizing some trip to barbados or a free limousine service.
 
posner said:
There are a lot of people who would be very offended by that comparison.

I knew you'd play that card. Consider this: There are also a lot of people who would be very offended by your denying that comparison.
 
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