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Question: Do men have the right NOT to be fathers?

Raz

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Dads: No cash for unwanted children

In lawsuit, activists argue if women have right to decide fate of fetus, fathers can decline financial role.

David Shepardson and Eric Lacy / The Detroit News


A national men's rights group plans to file a federal lawsuit this morning in U.S. District Court in Detroit, claiming that fathers have the legal right to opt out of the financial responsibilities of supporting a child they didn't want -- in a claim they dub "Roe v. Wade for Men."

A Troy lawyer for the New York-based National Center for Men said he will file a long-shot lawsuit on behalf of 25-year-old Matt Dubay of Saginaw that seeks an order declaring the Michigan Paternity Act unconstitutional. Dubay recently was ordered to pay support for his 8-month-old daughter.

In 2004, Dubay, a computer technician, began dating a woman who worked in cell phone sales. He said she told him she couldn't get pregnant -- because she was using contraception and had physical conditions that prevented her from getting pregnant.

After three months, they stopped dating -- but soon afterward, she told him she was pregnant.

"It's just not fair. She has options in this. As a man, I have no options and am forced to live with her choices," Dubay said Wednesday night. "I was up front. I was clear that I didn't want to be a father and she reassured me that she was incapable of getting pregnant."

After learning of the pregnancy, they discussed adoption.

"I was trying to talk reason, to try and have a two-way conversation. She considered an adoption but then quickly stopped listening," Dubay said.

So he researched the issue and found the National Center for Men in New York, which agreed to take his case.

"The whole issue is, she made the decision based knowing that I wasn't going to be there for the child in any part and she said she could raise the child on her own," Dubay said.

Troy lawyer Jeffrey A. Cojocar, who is filing the lawsuit for the National Center for Men, acknowledged it will be an uphill battle.

"No one is denying this is going to be difficult. But we want the law applied equally between sexes. They each should have a say about a child's future," Cojocar said.

Women's organizations oppose the lawsuit because it leaves the child and mother to fend for themselves.

"This is ridiculous," said Leslie Sorkhe, director of operations for the Association for Children for Enforcement of Support. "This is about the child, a child that needs the emotional as well as the financial support of both parents. The child is entitled to his or her equal protection under the law."

Renee Beeker of Milford, legislative vice president for National Organization for Women's Michigan chapter, says the lawsuit implies that the burden of pregnancy prevention is solely on the woman.

"In the event of an unintended pregnancy, the needs of the child must be met," Beeker said.

The National Center for Men and its president don't want to be able to force women to have abortions or give up a child for adoption. They want to be able to go into court before a child is born and renounce parenting responsibilities -- and 18 years of child support.

"More than three decades ago, Roe v. Wade gave women control of their reproductive lives but nothing in the law changed for men. Women now have control of their lives after an unplanned conception," said Mel Feit, the group's director. "But men are routinely forced to give up control, forced to be financially responsible for choices only women are permitted to make, forced to relinquish reproductive choice as the price of intimacy."

Cojocar admits that courts across the United States have routinely thrown out lawsuits by fathers who claimed women committed fraud by lying about taking precautions to avoid getting pregnant. Those courts have typically found a greater state interest in ensuring that minor children are supported. This claim is different in that it cites the U.S. Constitution's equal protection clause.

But, the men's group says it should be more than biology.

"We will argue that, at a time of reproductive freedom for women, fatherhood must be more than a matter of DNA," Feit said. "A man must choose to be a father in the same way that a woman chooses to be a mother."

Saginaw County Circuit Judge Patrick McGraw recently ordered Dubay to pay $475 a month -- plus half of all health care expenses for the baby girl, Cojocar said.

He sold his dream car, a 1998 Trans Am, and took in a roommate to stretch his budget so he can begin to make child support payments next month. He has seen his daughter once -- when he took a DNA test to establish paternity.

The child's mother didn't return calls seeking comment.

Michigan Attorney General Mike Cox, who has made collecting unpaid child support a top issue, said fathers must support their children, regardless of the circumstances of the births.

"If the subject is child support, our focus should be on children, not on squabbles between the parents," Cox said. His office has collected more than $23 million in child support, his office will announce today.

Michigan parents owe more than $7 billion in unpaid child support -- part of the $100 billion owed nationwide by parents who fail to support their children.

Legal experts say a ruling allowing men to opt out of support could open a Pandora's box, forcing the state to pick up the difference to support children of single parents.

The planned suit names the girl's mother, who is 20, and the Saginaw County prosecutor as defendants.

What are y'all thoughts on this? I can kind of see this guy's point....he didn't want the child, he made that very clear and as far as he knew precautions had been taken to stop a child from being born.

On the other hand, he could have used a condom rather than just take her word for it...and this isn't just about what he wants anymore; what happens here doesn't just affect him, it affects a child who has no say in it at all. I do feel sorry for this guy, but I don't know if opening up this can of worms is really a good idea...

I dunno...discuss! :)
 
Well I can see both perspectives pretty well. However I'm inclined to say that I agree with the dude, we don't know if he was originally going to use condoms and she said, no no, it's ok, I can't get pregnant etc etc.

I think that having to pay for something where you have no say in the final outcame is wrong. If they'd decided together that they were going to keep the kid, then tough luck, but if this guy has said right from the get go, that he doesn't want any part in it, and the girl has gone on to keep the child anyway, then that's her look out.

The other thing I think is that this is one of those situations where it is potentially harmful for all parties concerned because the child will have a father that resents her and the mother and resent can manifest itself into far uglier beasts.
 
i am very actively pro-choice, and women's rights oriented, however, in this case i am inclined to agree with the man. i took a class my first semester in college about contemporay moral issues, and we discussed a case like this one.
i dont know how it would be possible to make this work, but i think there should be some kind of legal consent type thing filled and filed before birth that would enable men to waive their rights as a father to give them more equal rights.
sure, women get the short end of the stick in a lot of areas, including reproductive freedom, but 18 years of child support is not something to whine about, that is a serious issue and the men's side should be taken into consideration as well.
 
The thing is, this argument can only degenerate into a he said, she said situation.

He said: She told me that she couldn't get pregnant.
She said: No I didn't!

How do you know who's telling the truth?

The man does have a choice, when he chooses to have sex with or without protection. She could just as easily have lied about not having an STD, how would he dodge the consequences then?

Child support payments are there to protect women and children from men just like Matt Dubay, who want to shirk their responsibilities.

If she did lie, that is detestable, but not the child's fault and the child shouldn't be made to suffer for it.
 
I dont think money should be the issue, rather that they should both provide equal amounts of love for the child. i'd much rather grow up without the newest of everything and be well rounded and loved
 
I see the guys point but its not realistic. Im a guy but for 2 reasons Im gunna take her side. First being my dad took off when I was 4 years old. I have not seen or herd from him once. It hurts me too know he's probably out there right now and not even thinking twice about me. Also by now I probably have brothers and sisters I dont even know.
Also with my girlfriend its kinda the same story. She has been telling me from the begining that she cannot get pregnant. We have been together over a year and soo far I think thats true. But if she came too me and said she had my kid inside her. I would accept that I took the risk that she could be lieing or was just wrong. Being only 22 years old I dont want a kid yet. But if she did come say she was pregnant I see no reason why that kid should be without a fauther.
 
Men should be relinquished of all responsibility if the woman decides to go ahead with an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy
 
assuming she did lie about being unable to become pregnant and then refused to give the child up for adoption, i really dont think that he should have to pay child support. i also think that he is going to have to pay child support. thats only because women are better at playing the victim though.
 
I don't believe that a child's potential has more right than a person who is a physical reality. However, when that child becomes a physical reality, it is entitled to exactly the same thing as every other person on the planet is entitled to-- the right to be supported.

I do think that it is hideously unfair that people can still be forced into being responsible for a child that they wanted no part in. And I'm rejoicing that birth control is easy and affordable and new options are cropping up all the time.

But I think that once born, a child shouldn't have to suffer because the parent (father or mother) decides it doesn't fit into their current lifestyle. They have rights-- but so does the kid.
 
Public policy dictates that courts rule in favor of the children in these types of cases. The mother may be a piece of shit and the man may be the most up-standing person on earth but when a child is involved the importance of the two adults decreases significantly, if not totally.
 
no one should have any rights... we should all be stricktly controlled in our everyday actions, interactions, and procreations, by a body created by the government, unknown to those who have never broken the law.

but seriously, mothers should have the right, fathers should have the right, and fetus' can't understand rights therefore negating them from having them, kinda like animals. we should have the right to decide, and there's a big difference between being a part of a new life, and creating it. we should have the right to decide if we create new life as well as if we are a part of it's new life, but in the case of two people who can't agree... well... who says the needs of the child are more important than the needs of the mother or the father? isn't this a double standard? at what age do you get taken off my christmas card list...

if the mom wants the kid, and the dad didn't, then it's not up to the dad to help out. i hope the kid sues the mom in 20 years for wrongully creating the it... that'd be gold!
 
My ex wife had an abortion without my consent. She chose to end her pregnancy as is her right, even though I would have done anything to have that child. I wanted it, she didn't, she ended it. Where was my "right to choose"?
So if a woman wants the baby, she can choose to have it without any consent from the man. That is not fair. If she chooses to have the baby without the man then she should be forced to deal with it on her own if the man waives all rights.
Men deserve the "right to choose" as do women.
 
posner said:

Public policy dictates that courts rule in favor of the children in these types of cases.

The mother may be a piece of shit and the man may be the most up-standing person on earth but when a child is involved the importance of the two adults decreases significantly, if not totally.

Well said.

To me, this all boils down to "assumption of the risk" principles.

And when a man has sex with a woman . . .

. . . he is ASSUMING THE RISK that she is lying (or is simply incorrect) about her ability or inability to get pregnant.

Is it fair to punish the man for trusting a woman who commits fraud?

No.

But he's NOT being punished for trusting that woman.

Rather, he's being held responsible for assuming a risk.

And as much as it does suck that this man will be paying for something that is MOSTLY her fault . . .

. . . it would suck even more if the innocent child had to grow up without a father.

This might sound un-21st century, but it's practical advice to all men:

If you have any doubts whatsoever as to a women's propensity to be honest . . .

. . . just make sure that your cum ends up in orifices other than her pussy.
 
And as much as it does suck that this man will be paying for something that is MOSTLY her fault . . .

. . . it would suck even more if the innocent child had to grow up without a father.

the child IS going to grow up without a father whether she wins the case for child support or not. money is not the same as a father. i dunno where you got that idea.
 
gf, i'm not doing no chick in the ear hole... i'm gonna demand a contract stating that any pregnancy resulting from my sex is to be terminated, unless specifically declared otherwise by both mother and father parties, and that failure in the responsibility to do so is entirely upon the mother party, and i will not be held accountable. so ladies... can i buy you a drink?

LOVELIFE, as much as I agree that the man is 'assuming the risk', do we need go this far? it reminds me of drunk drivers crashing into kids j-walking... yes, we can blame both... but who is at fault? and at what age do you get taken off my christmas card list?

i should add that these kids are 4 year old orphaned street kids, in an anarchistic country.
 
This isn't even about whether the woman lied to the man about whether or not she could get pregnant. Both partners must take equal responsibility for ensuring pregnancy doesn't happen if it is not wanted.
Both partners must make the decision on whether to have an unexpected child or to have an abortion. If both parties cannot agree then it really depends on who wants what. If the woman wants the baby and the man does not then it is unfair to expect the man to have to support this child for the next 18 years. If the woman cannot support the child on her own then this should still apply. Most of the people on this board live in developed countries with enough money to ensure all children get a decent childhood with enough money to eat, go to school, and all the other things that kids need to do. This is why we pay taxes.

If the man wants the baby and the woman does not then it's a really tough ending. There's nothing the man can do to force the woman to allow her body to be used to grow the baby she doesn't even want.

Life isn't fair :(
 
^pretty much my view. If a woman wants the child and the man doesn't, I don't feel it's her right to demand any money if the situation wasn't discussed beforehand. Pretty much your own damn problem as far as I'm concerned if you didn't talk to the guy before you fucked him. That's the responsibility that comes with being a fertile woman. However, on that same note, I do not believe that a man should have any say in whether or not a woman keeps or terminates a pregnancy. You cannot fucking force a woman to bear a child that she doesn't want. A woman is a not an incubator.
 
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