Question about suboxone withdrawal!!!

[paleeyez9110]

Alright so just a minimalistic outline of the past:

My buddy took a quarter of a sub, everyday for almost 3 years, mostly taking it for energy for work. Finally decided enough is enough and decided to stop. He has never had a consistent habit with any other drugs in the past, so ignorantly he believed that he would not actually fully withdrawal from the sub. Boy, was he wrong, the W.D. went on for almost a full week, without any sleep from day 2 or 3 till day 8 (which is by far the worst part, so he says). He didn't expect it to be this bad, but was determined, and managed to get through it.

Anyways, he stayed off of it for about a year, never touching any opiates of any kind. It might be important to point out, in the past he had tried other opiates(pills), but never developed an addiction. It was always a once a week type deal, as they were hard to come by. Point being that opiate abuse isn't what led him to try suboxone in the first place, it was just a buddy from school gave him a piece, and he took it, just knowing that it would mess him up (he had no idea what it was actually used for).

So some time passes, and an old friend gets him to do some tabs, which ultimately leads to him binging on subs again for about 3 months. Except by now they have doubled in price in his area, due to them being a lot more popular. Everyday he would meet up with the same kid that had them, until he was in a full blown addiction once again. Realizing that he had fallen back off the horse, he nutted up and buckled down to go through withdrawal again (if there would be any).

There was withdrawal, but only about 1/3 of the pain that he faced the first time. So he stays off opiates aaallll summer long, he wasn't drug free by far, but opiates were out of the picture. He spent the summer working, going to bars and concerts, taking a lot of good mdma- it was a blast. So winter comes around and a girl he once slept with needed help moving her perc script, to make rent. He helped her and ended up taking some in the progress, which lead to a sub here and there, which lead to a sub every couple days.

So his current situation is that he has been doing a sub every 2 days or so, sometimes multiple days in a row, but for the most part every 2 or 3 days. Oh and btw he is taking a full 8 mg dose every time. Anyways, he has gone up to six days without doing it, and this is where his question and the reason for the post comes in. He says that there is pretty much zero physical withdrawal symptoms, and he has gone through sub w/d twice now, and both times it was in full force by day 3 at the most.

He feels lethargic, but is sleeping fine, has a normal appetite, and just generally feels okay, for the most part. What is bothering him though is his mental state, even though he can go for 5 or 6 days without it, and without feeling any physical symptoms, he says that he feels like he needs it mentally. He feels very tired mentally, and he has no drive to do anything whatsoever mentally. The world just appears very grey to him. The first two times around when off of the sub completely, once he recovered he felt the best he had in his entire life, very happy, energetic, and full of hope for the future.

So basically he wants some insight from others into what may be happening with him currently. Is it possible that he could be mentally addicted and not physically? If so, how long till this subsides? Is it possible that he has just come to enjoying the high he gets so much, that the whole feeling of mentally needing something is all just in his head? Any response would be greatly appreciated, and this is my first post on the forum, sorry if I broke any rules...thanks for reading!

 

[paleeyez9110]

anyone? : (

 

[Effect]

Most people don't want to read a huge wall of text man. You gotta break it up to make it easier on the eyes and in general.

Also another word of advice; at the bottom make a quick, labeled and clearly noticeable summary for those who don't want to read the whole thing, but want the general idea of what your asking so they can help you.

 

[paleeyez9110]

cool, thanks buddy, i'll keep that in mind. I honestly tried to keep it as short as possible, while at the same time trying to accurately portray the situation. Trust me it would of been three times longer if not more. Anyways thanks for the input either way

 

[Thou]

Please condense that to a general set of questions if you can and you'll get more responses.

I'd do so but I don't have the time right now.

 

[T. Calderone]

At 8 mg it could take several days before you start feeling withdrawals. What prompted you to go up to this dose? From what you said, you had chipped around with Percocet and never had a major dope habit. Sooner or later, you will need to stop using subs. You may want to get back to where you were at 2 mg and jump off from there.

 

[paleeyez9110]

He says he took the 8 because it would get him so lit, while 2 would not do that. He says he has gone for 6 days without it 2 weeks ago, and 5 days w.o. it a week ago (both times due to money being tight). He has made it fully through withdrawal from subs twice in the past, both times full blown w.d. symptoms coming into play between days 2 and 3, without fail. Sleep is absolutely impossible during this, so he says. He understands the long half-life attributed to subs. Even after going 5 days one time, 6 another, no physical symptoms present- mental symptoms are however- He feels anxious, uncomfortable, in need of something, angry, depressed...etc. This is not his normal mood, both times he went through the w.d. in the past he returned to being a happy and upbeat person, just as a natural feeling.

Is it possible that these mental symptoms are just the result of him "hyping" himself up about it, or just generally craving it? Could this possibly be all in his head?
Keep in mind it never became an everyday thing this time around, but it was every-other day, sometimes every three days. He knows you could still get hooked even when not taking it every day, due to its long half-life. If he had to assess his physical state, after the six days(both times) he would say that physical w.d. is not present at all, and it should be after this time frame. He says with his past experience w.d.'ing twice from subs, physical symptoms are unmistakable, and impossible to ignore (anyone who has gone through this can probably attest to that).
Thank you for your input and time, sry for the long read (tried to keep it short, it's hard when there is so many details).

 

[fullycaffeinated]

Is it possible that someone could experience PAWS without actually experiencing acute withdrawals first? I wish a more knowledgeable BLer would come help me out with this one... but basically, after someone experiences the withdrawals (4-7 days, lots of prevalent physical symptoms along with the mental), PAWS (Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome) is an extended period of... well, just feeling like crap in general. Depression, lethargy, anxiety, etc etc. I don't have a ton of time right now, but do a search on PAWS for more info. I know when I was chipping, before my habit really hit it's worst, my physical withdrawals were nonexistent or very minimal, but after awhile, I still experienced a period where things just weren't right. Similarly, when I started chipping again after inpatient rehab, I didn't always experience full blown withdrawals, but the dreaded PAWS was absolutely still present. There was a time I was on bupe (off the street) for a few weeks and never got actual withdrawals, but had no energy to do anything at all. So I would search PAWS and see if this fits, unless a fellow BLer comes on and tells me I'm batshit crazy.

On the other hand, a lot of battles are 90% mental, so, he may feel like shit because he is expecting to feel like shit. I've noticed some people hear of PAWS and automatically, that's what was wrong, even if their habit was never big enough to facilitate such a thing. So that could very well be possible. It also just may be an excuse to keep doing bupe. Honestly, only he knows what's going on in his own head. But I will tell you, bupe is a strong opiate, way stronger than the percs he was chipping with. At 8 mg, PAWS is absolutely a possibility, and with the long half life of bupe, it is possible that it worked itself out of his system slowly enough that he did not experience withdrawals - but is still stuck with the PAWS. There are people who come off bupe no problem at all, and others who don't feel the same for months on end - it largely depends on body chemistry and the rate at which you eliminate the drug.

 

[paleeyez9110]

fullycaffeinated you seem like a cool guy, and a lot of what you said is very true, at least in my experience. In my post did I need to use the "swim" technique? Or could I of just typed it normally? Regardless, I never considered that it could be PAWs, I know what they are, and they are terrible. Though I don't think they're as bad as a lot of people make them out to be. I went through w.d. twice, to then be completely clean from any opiate for a year one time, and then 4-6 months the second time. I would say that for me, the first time (which was after using subs for about 3 years everyday, and sometimes at night to stay up and play cod) the PAWs we're extremely bad, and they lasted for a full month. The second time I had very little paws, right after the physical side of it, I was pretty much back to normal. I never really thought that you could get PAWs w.o. going through the full w.d. first, which is kind of stupid when you think about it. The reason I don't think PAWs is as bad as normal w.d. though is because for me at least, it would be EXTREME mood swings. I remember one night a week or so after acute w.d., I went out fishing with my brother, I felt extremely happy....like unnaturally happy, and hyper. Just felt really good and optimistic, that faded though and the next morning I felt really mentally lethargic and drained.
Anyways, thanks for your input...you're probably right, my brain is probably just drained of chemicals it needs to produce naturally....which sucks and is depressing to think about, thank you though

 

[sarajenni88]

I agree u LUCKED out on the physical w/d...not to diminish ur situation in the slightest but the fact that u say Acute withdrawals aren't half as bad as ppl make them out to be (sry if it's not the exact phrasing) and that u did not experience acute withdrawal from the last sub withdrawal... tells me that ur opiate habit is still in the early stages. Although ur story contradicts ur body's reaction...count urself as blessed and leave the sub oxen alone while u can. Continue to fight thru the PAWS stay active have sex enjoy life!!! Ur mind is healing just give it time to catch up to ur body.

Good luck

 

[axl blaze]

I agree with the above "your mind is healing just give it time to catch up to your body." hey man, at least you aren't feeling physical symptons

8 mgs is a lot of sub to take, but I guess since you took it recreationally, and not to treat addiction, it makes more sense

give it time, it will pass. you are experiencing PAWS

 

[fullycaffeinated]

no SWIMmers here at BL

For me it seems very hit and miss when and if I will experience PAWS and how bad it will be. But the best thing you can do in that scenario is be as healthy as possible. Lots and lots of exercise (as much as you can stand at first), make sure you are eating clean, and there are some supplements you can take to help. One I know offhand is L-Tyrosine, but if you look around online there are a few others that help with the process of restoring your brain back to normal... and also, try not to take anything during this process, because it will do more damage than its worth. It's almost as if you'll end up starting this process over. Also take advantage of the heightened sex drive you most likely have now, because that will also help with endorphin release and such.

Btw I'm a chick

 

[paleeyez9110]

Ya you guys are right, cool that's whats up. You're def right about not taking anything else while recovering (cuz it will jst dmg ur brain more), but a friend of mine has to say after the last time he quit subs n went thru full w.d. last winter, he went to a music festival called blue heron, and took molly. It was a great time and he found it to be extremely therapeutic, seriously felt really needed. My brain wasn't back to normal yet from the subs, but that gave me a kick in the right direction I feel like.

 

[paleeyez9110]

I swear living in buffalo, every time winter comes around and you have to spend more time in doors, I always end up digging myself into a whole with subs. During the summer I don't even think about it...