Question about Ketamine

[Deleted member 290563]

Just put out a huge fucking line and rail it all. You'll get there, trust me. I recommend around 200 - 300 mgs for starters.
K holing on MDMA is incredible. I went through a half gram of M accompanied by a few lines, followed by one bigger line about 5 - 6 inches and really thick. A magical experience that will forever remain embedded in my mind.

Agreed, MDMA seems to really make the experience more visual and more complex and the hallucinations become much more "other 3-D-reality" like

 

[Deleted member 290563]

I'd say 30 minutes max.
There are sort of pseudo k holes which can be achieved in very dark areas in a type of sensory deprivation by remaining very still and removing thought from your brain, a sort of meditation induced k hole if you will, but this differ from actual k holes in the way that say your phone goes off or someone walks into the room, you can be snapped out of the experience.
However they feel very identical in the way that your entire field of vision can be overcome with visuals and you lose your sense of time and space.
They tend to last shorted but I prefer this way because they are far easier to remember because maybe 125mg may be needed instead of 250mg.

THis

you can meditate yourself into a k-hole....its much easier and less scary than actually highdosing into one

 

[Solipsis]

That's because IMO it is not the same. Better put I think that you can meditate yourself into a mystical experience, but in my definition of a K-hole all contact with the outside world is lost and to use an analogy there is a difference between not looking and being blind.
I would say meditation corresponds largely with cessation of inquiry (sensorial or cognitive), and ultimately forms of desire. While that surely leads to profound yet natural, and often instructive states of consciousness it is just not the same as being forcefully blinded cognitively and sensorially by a dissociative drug. Just like there are significant differences between meditating on a low dose of psychedelics or throwing yourself in the deep end with a high dose without any meditation.
With meditation (either advanced experience level or aided by psychedelics or dissociatives) peace and unity are often found since there are much fewer residual trains of thought.
So I am definitely not saying that it is better not to meditate, instead I just identify a K-hole with an active internal experience that has abstract and often bizarre conceptual content, just like I identify "tripping" with a generally active and warped mind having a wild experience.
Mystical experiences and OBE's are also things that can happen on psychedelics, dissociatives and other such drugs and they are often extra special and transformational... but they are interesting in a different way. And whatever your personal definitions are, it is IMO worth differentiating between these possible states of consciousness. Categorizing them a little bit to your own discretion is not necessarily filing them away casually and it could potentially help with streamlining the integration of your experiences.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

True but do you also think it is easier to fall into a k hole through sensory deprivation type scenarios?
Not to the extent John Lily did but mostly just a dark space.
Most of my meditated k hole experiences I have lost view of everything that once was in my vision, but once my phone started vibrating, and I heard it coming through and everything started to morph back to normal in a matter of maybe 20 seconds but it's hard to tell.
If by your standards I don't think I have ever remembered a single one of my "true" k holes.

 

[Solipsis]

Yes I do, I have been in a floatation tank on ketamine but unfortunately I had some practical quandaries that rendered the experience a bit disappointing. Although the subsequent shiatzu massage was amazing!

I think it is probably easier to fall into a K-hole that way and sensory deprivation forcibly blinds you sensorially, the name is actually defined that way. It is well-known that sensory deprivation can cause mind movies, a direct indication that mental activity is still rampant, manifesting itself to fill in for the lack of stimulation, effectively communicating with itself. However sensory deprivation alone does not blind a person cognitively, not until a later stage at least (prolonged sensory deprivation can debilitate the mind as was shown by a voluntary experiment in a bunker - there is a documentary on it).
So adding a dissociative drug does more than potentiating the sensory disconnection.

Sitting in the dark or in silence are indeed sensory deprivation, just not engineered for high efficiency. But they will still take you very far. :D
They are also forceful ways to blind your senses and have no a priori association with meditation, although it definitely invites you to meditate since it is convenient to 'stop looking' if nothing is there anymore.

 

[MrMeatballs]

I have chronic pain, will that factor make it harder for me to go into a meditation induced k-hole? Would I be better off just bumping a sizeable amount instead of trying for the alternative?

 

[Solipsis]

You have a good chance that the pain responds to ketamine, which has an effect on proprioception. Rather than killing the pain it gradually kills off the entire awareness of having a body (temporarily of course :D )
Generally it is not recommended to meditate lying down, because that promotes passivity and rest, but the lazy kind. The half-lotus position is great to practice but if you have not mastered it yet it can be uncomfortable to maintain, even for people without chronic pain. But on dissociatives like ketamine it is IME often a piece of cake to endure such straining. Just be careful not to injure yourself while numbed.
Read some instructions on the half-lotus, like how to bend your pelvis / hips and back, and get in a position that is like someone is lifting you up from an invisible wire suspended from the base of your neck / head.

Trying with meditation first (let's call the result close enough to a K-hole ) is definitely not a bad idea. It is often less threatening and easier to deal with meditative states than strong drug-induced states, I think that is because meditation is much more natural and it happens a bit more at your own pace and own accord.
You can always try higher doses later, that way you first build experience with gradually increasing doses - which is always the best approach. Diving into the deep end of the dosage range might sound effective, and granted: the stronger the ketamine experience the stronger the loss of typical emotional dimensionality is (you tend to be beyond normal coherent understanding of things, if you forget that you are a person there is not enough awareness to fear anything)... but it is not very good HR to take a massive dose without titrating, and potentially unpredictable. Although again granted: higher doses tend to immobilize you.