recyclethepandas
Greenlighter
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2013
- Messages
- 40
This thread is particularly about generic Morphine Sulphate tablets, 30mg instant release. Those teeny little purple pills with a boxed M on one side and 30 on the other. However, I'm sure this ought to relate to any drug that one might insufflate.
Basically, I'm asking about the bioavailabilities of morphine, specifically the sulphate salt... There are a few discrepancies on the internet, but the most reliable sources I could find, as well as the most generally agreed-upon forum answers, have it that the oral BA is somewhere between 20% and 30%, while the intranasal BA is around 10%. Obviously it is pretty unusual, especially for opiates, that a drug would be absorbed more poorly in the nose than in the stomach, but I'm sure there is a sound chemical explanation, so I have been satisfied with this answer. I have used morphine either orally or intravenously every time because of this, but it dawned on me today that, well, so what if the nasal absorption is worse? Obviously, "nasal bioavailability" and "oral bioavailability" actually describe two more specific, separate processes. Nasal bioavailability is really just a reference to the amount of drug x absorbed into the nasal tissue, rather than the amount of drug x that reaches the brain, since all that is absorbed into the mucous membranes will eventually reach the circulatory system just as it would if parenterally administered. This means that, if 100% of drug x is absorbed by the circulatory system when drug x is injected intravenously, then 10% of drug x is absorbed by the circ. system when drug x is snorted. However, while oral BA describes the same thing, absorption by the circulatory system, it is also a function of metabolism, since drug x must pass through the liver before it can be absorbed by veins. Obvious, I know, but I want to keep the definitions very clear so we can figure this next part out.
We all know that when you sniff drug x, some is going to absorb into your nasal mucous membrane, while some is going to drip down... into your stomach. Now, I suspect that everyone who answered the question of morphine sulphate's intranasal BA found their answer somewhere on google. Going through google will lead one to clinical studies, on sheep, and probably others, that show that 10% of the solution placed in the nasal cavity will eventually pass through the capillaries and into the bloodstream. But how was this measured? Did they simply measure displacement of the solution, to see how much had physically diffused through the membrane? The reason this is relevant is because one would think that all of the morphine that diffuses through the membrane will enter the bloodstream, while all of the morphine that doesn't diffuse through will drip into the stomach, entering the bloodstream after first pass metabolism. I will do a little calculation to show the true results of snorting morphine, if my theory is true, and then I will consider a logical counterargument to the theory.
So, let's say you swallowed 100mg of morphine. Using a fixed average BA of 25%, rather than 20-30%, your bloodstream will obviously only transport 25mg beyond your excretory system.
Now let's say your friend snorted 100mg of morphine instead. Using a fixed average BA of 10%, in my theory, your bloodstream will immediately absorb 10mg. However, assuming the other 90mg didn't just disappear, it's probably a safe bet to say that it dripped down into your stomach. (Now, before criticizing my theory, read the paragraphs under this, because I will go into detail about the other possibility) Once the 90mg has entered your stomach, returning to an oral BA of 25%, after first pass metabolism another 22.5mg has entered your bloodstream. Added together, obviously, your bloodstream now contains 32.5mg, more than your friend got from just swallowing it.
This conclusion assumes that "10% intranasal bioavailability" refers to how much of drug x diffuses through the nasal cavity, and that every molecule that diffuses through the cavity ends up in your bloodstream. One natural counterargument is that "10% intranasal BA" actually refers to how much of drug x diffuses into the bloodstream, not through the nasal cavity. This theory would have it that 100% of drug x actually diffuses through the membrane, but only 10% of the membrane-bound drug x actually makes it into the bloodstream. This would mean, quite literally, that swallowing morphine will get you higher than snorting it. But I am very skeptical of this idea, because it just doesn't make sense. Where does the other 90% go? I can understand that it might be faintly possible that enzymes in your nasal tissue are capable of metabolizing morphine, but I seriously doubt it would happen before all of the morphine diffuses into the bloodstream, since snorting morphine does produce effects within 10-15 minutes, while morphine's half life in the liver, let alone the nasal cavity (lol), is on the order of hours. The only other way I could see that snorting morphine would only deliver 10% of the drug to your bloodstream, would be if you sneezed it out before it started dripping.
I started writing this thread while I was considering what to do with my last morphine pill. I was interrupted by my friend letting me know he would deliver my gram of smack right to my house if I gave him my last morphine pill, so I obliged. Unfortunately, this thread is no longer relevant to my life (at least for now) since I am now happily tarred and feathered... But I love writing and I love bluelight, so I thought I would share my idea and put it up for debate. If anybody somehow knows a lot about the metabolic processes in the nasal cavity, I'd love to hear your take on the whole thing. If somebody reads this and sees that it makes sense, I invite you to do both trials yourself and post the results. If anybody reads this and says "god this guy is an idiot," please show me my mistake (or post a totally moronic theory in response to mine so we all get some laughs out of it).
Really, it seems to be a huge difference... I mean, I have literally never snorted morphine because I always assumed that if I snorted a 30mg pill I would only absorb 3mg. But it just doesn't make sense. Where do the other 27mgs go? It all makes sense now - the scientific studies merely measured nasal absorption, as the studies were not tailored to recreational drug users. They must not have cared about or considered the possibility that the 90% not absorbed would eventually enter the stomach and be absorbed into the liver.
Thanks for your consideration guys hopefully we get to the bottom of this. I would be pretty shocked to find out that I am the first person who considered this possibility, but you never know. People often look at the numbers in scientific journals and don't consider what the numbers might specifically be referring to.
Basically, I'm asking about the bioavailabilities of morphine, specifically the sulphate salt... There are a few discrepancies on the internet, but the most reliable sources I could find, as well as the most generally agreed-upon forum answers, have it that the oral BA is somewhere between 20% and 30%, while the intranasal BA is around 10%. Obviously it is pretty unusual, especially for opiates, that a drug would be absorbed more poorly in the nose than in the stomach, but I'm sure there is a sound chemical explanation, so I have been satisfied with this answer. I have used morphine either orally or intravenously every time because of this, but it dawned on me today that, well, so what if the nasal absorption is worse? Obviously, "nasal bioavailability" and "oral bioavailability" actually describe two more specific, separate processes. Nasal bioavailability is really just a reference to the amount of drug x absorbed into the nasal tissue, rather than the amount of drug x that reaches the brain, since all that is absorbed into the mucous membranes will eventually reach the circulatory system just as it would if parenterally administered. This means that, if 100% of drug x is absorbed by the circulatory system when drug x is injected intravenously, then 10% of drug x is absorbed by the circ. system when drug x is snorted. However, while oral BA describes the same thing, absorption by the circulatory system, it is also a function of metabolism, since drug x must pass through the liver before it can be absorbed by veins. Obvious, I know, but I want to keep the definitions very clear so we can figure this next part out.
We all know that when you sniff drug x, some is going to absorb into your nasal mucous membrane, while some is going to drip down... into your stomach. Now, I suspect that everyone who answered the question of morphine sulphate's intranasal BA found their answer somewhere on google. Going through google will lead one to clinical studies, on sheep, and probably others, that show that 10% of the solution placed in the nasal cavity will eventually pass through the capillaries and into the bloodstream. But how was this measured? Did they simply measure displacement of the solution, to see how much had physically diffused through the membrane? The reason this is relevant is because one would think that all of the morphine that diffuses through the membrane will enter the bloodstream, while all of the morphine that doesn't diffuse through will drip into the stomach, entering the bloodstream after first pass metabolism. I will do a little calculation to show the true results of snorting morphine, if my theory is true, and then I will consider a logical counterargument to the theory.
So, let's say you swallowed 100mg of morphine. Using a fixed average BA of 25%, rather than 20-30%, your bloodstream will obviously only transport 25mg beyond your excretory system.
Now let's say your friend snorted 100mg of morphine instead. Using a fixed average BA of 10%, in my theory, your bloodstream will immediately absorb 10mg. However, assuming the other 90mg didn't just disappear, it's probably a safe bet to say that it dripped down into your stomach. (Now, before criticizing my theory, read the paragraphs under this, because I will go into detail about the other possibility) Once the 90mg has entered your stomach, returning to an oral BA of 25%, after first pass metabolism another 22.5mg has entered your bloodstream. Added together, obviously, your bloodstream now contains 32.5mg, more than your friend got from just swallowing it.
This conclusion assumes that "10% intranasal bioavailability" refers to how much of drug x diffuses through the nasal cavity, and that every molecule that diffuses through the cavity ends up in your bloodstream. One natural counterargument is that "10% intranasal BA" actually refers to how much of drug x diffuses into the bloodstream, not through the nasal cavity. This theory would have it that 100% of drug x actually diffuses through the membrane, but only 10% of the membrane-bound drug x actually makes it into the bloodstream. This would mean, quite literally, that swallowing morphine will get you higher than snorting it. But I am very skeptical of this idea, because it just doesn't make sense. Where does the other 90% go? I can understand that it might be faintly possible that enzymes in your nasal tissue are capable of metabolizing morphine, but I seriously doubt it would happen before all of the morphine diffuses into the bloodstream, since snorting morphine does produce effects within 10-15 minutes, while morphine's half life in the liver, let alone the nasal cavity (lol), is on the order of hours. The only other way I could see that snorting morphine would only deliver 10% of the drug to your bloodstream, would be if you sneezed it out before it started dripping.
I started writing this thread while I was considering what to do with my last morphine pill. I was interrupted by my friend letting me know he would deliver my gram of smack right to my house if I gave him my last morphine pill, so I obliged. Unfortunately, this thread is no longer relevant to my life (at least for now) since I am now happily tarred and feathered... But I love writing and I love bluelight, so I thought I would share my idea and put it up for debate. If anybody somehow knows a lot about the metabolic processes in the nasal cavity, I'd love to hear your take on the whole thing. If somebody reads this and sees that it makes sense, I invite you to do both trials yourself and post the results. If anybody reads this and says "god this guy is an idiot," please show me my mistake (or post a totally moronic theory in response to mine so we all get some laughs out of it).
Really, it seems to be a huge difference... I mean, I have literally never snorted morphine because I always assumed that if I snorted a 30mg pill I would only absorb 3mg. But it just doesn't make sense. Where do the other 27mgs go? It all makes sense now - the scientific studies merely measured nasal absorption, as the studies were not tailored to recreational drug users. They must not have cared about or considered the possibility that the 90% not absorbed would eventually enter the stomach and be absorbed into the liver.
Thanks for your consideration guys hopefully we get to the bottom of this. I would be pretty shocked to find out that I am the first person who considered this possibility, but you never know. People often look at the numbers in scientific journals and don't consider what the numbers might specifically be referring to.