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Quality of K and the suspicious "more sought after" K

TheTripDoctor

TheTripDoctor

Bluelighter
Joined
Jan 3, 2001
Messages
792
Recently i have had access to pure ketamine powder, its certifiably very good, and seems better than most k ive had in terms of purity, where this is 99.7% USP grade powder, most ketamine comes from a vial with a preserve called benzethonium chloride, which remains when it is cooked, im not entirely sure the vials dont also have saline as opposed to water, leaving NaCl in the cooked powder.
My question is, one person had said that he thought ketaset wasnt as good as ketalar, but both those are DL- ketamine, i checked the manufacturer. He also said that there was a certain kind which was bettter, my guess is a pure separated isomer such as (+) or (-) alone, i can see that if it were pure (-) it would be more psychedelic, but no vials have only that, all are racemic but one, a foreign injection with pure S(+) .
I have read about the fact that (+) ketamine is more powerful as an anesthetic and as an analgesic, while (-) ketamine is shown to be more psychedelic and causes the NDE phenomena ( Here Psychic Ketamine versus Anaesthetic Ketamine scroll down to that section). If those vials are racemic, then any cooked k would be the same, and there would be varied reactions, as there usually are. BUT if there were a form available with a specific isomer, it would cause people to recognize it as either completely different ketamine, or "better" somehow. I have heard this from many many people, but i realize ravers are jaded and catch on every little myth, at the same time its not just a single group of people, having more than 20 people who all dont even talk to each other say something about it makes me think theres something here even if insignifigant.
------------------
~The Recreational Pharmacist (Ketamike)
I have never belonged wholeheartedly to country or State, to my circle of friends or even to my own family...
Such isolation is sometimes bitter, but I do not regret being cut off from the understanding and sympathy of other men.
I lose something by it,to be sure, but I am compensated for it in being rendered independent of the customs,
opinions and prejudices of others, and am not tempted to rest my peace of mind upon such shifting foundations.
--Albert Einstein
[This message has been edited by TheTripDoctor (edited 05 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by TheTripDoctor (edited 05 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by TheTripDoctor (edited 08 May 2001).]
 
Here are 2 quotes from the site i stated above that prove that there are different types of ketamine, commercial ketamine in vials is a mix of both. they are in fact different in activity, (-) ketamine more psychedelic, and (+) ketamine more anesthetic and analgesic. The interesting thing is that it says ketamine binds to opiate receptors, making it a narcotic in a sense without being an opiate in structure, conversely DXM is an opiate in structure but only affects the NMDA receptors as ketamine does normally. It states that future NDE research could be conducted with (-), i think the opposit would be true, we would see manufacturers produce pure (+) for anesthesia.
"White et al. (1980) demonstrated that (+)ketamine has some opioid binding properties and produces more 'conventional anaesthesia', while (-)ketamine produces psychic emergence reactions (NDE's)."
"(+)ketamine is about four times more potent as a hypnotic (sleep-inducing agent) and analgesic, and has different effects upon the EEG from (-)ketamine (White et al., 1985). This may explain some of the confusion concerning whether ketamine is an anticonvulsant or a proconvulsant (Myslobodsky et al.,1981), and suggests that future NDE research might be better done with (-)ketamine rather than the mixture currently supplied to anaesthetists. "
------------------
~The Recreational Pharmacist (Ketamike)
I have never belonged wholeheartedly to country or State, to my circle of friends or even to my own family...
Such isolation is sometimes bitter, but I do not regret being cut off from the understanding and sympathy of other men.
I lose something by it,to be sure, but I am compensated for it in being rendered independent of the customs,
opinions and prejudices of others, and am not tempted to rest my peace of mind upon such shifting foundations.
--Albert Einstein
[This message has been edited by TheTripDoctor (edited 05 May 2001).]
 
I think that the K that your talking about is going by the street name of "Lab K" I have ran across some of this and it is different. Alot more potent. It looks like it has crystals in it. But it is awesome. Thats all I know about this "new" K.
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Lets save our scene! don't be so obvious w/ drugs.
You gotta hold yourself like your "the shit" when your dancing, Like you are to best one out there and don't worry what people thing about your dancing.
AIM:HO84Z28
 
So say you had access to "Lab K", the stuff that already comes in powdered/crystalized form from the manufacture. What "kind" of K would that be?? + or - ??
One more question, how long does it usually take for K tolerance to die down?? I have been on a bit of a binge, and I would need to do LOTS even to feel a bit. How many days/weeks/months until I get back to baseline if I quit cold-turkey?? I know it probably varies from person to person, so your own experiences would be helpful.
Tap`
 
Ketamine tolerance takes about a month or so to go away. It seems to build up fast and then linger for quite a while.
[This message has been edited by PARADIGM (edited 06 May 2001).]
 
Damn did you go to K college? =)~
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There's a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path
 
*bump*
love this post TripDoctor, good job.
I have become very interested in this "other K" as well, considering i have stumbled upon alot of it. Me and my group of freinds have been calling it Ketachloride, considering K that comes from a vial is Ketamine Hydrochloride (i think that makes them differt) correct me if im wrong.
 
q-tip, I think you're confusing what TripDoctor was talking about.
Typical powdered ketamine is ketamine hydrochloride. The stuff that is in your vials is also ketamine hydrochloride just they put it in solution and add some preservatives to the solution.
What TripDoctor is talking about is not simply ketamine hydrochloride in solution but a particular type of ketamine. The ketamine molecule has a particular spin or polarity to it (either + or -). It has been shown that the different polarity have slightly different activities. Now, ALL ketamine that you buy on the streets whether it is powder or vials will ALWAYS be a mixture of the two; it will NOT be a pure set of polarity or the other. Why? Simply because (a) it costs a lot more to isolate one type or the other, it is astronomically cheaper to leave it as a mixture, (b) most all ketamine is used in the veterinary profession so an isolated type is not necessary, (c) only a couple companies worldwide sell the isolated polarities (e.g. Sigma Aldrich) and they sell it for research purposes not for the bulk medical community.
 
Correct, however burnt, this k which is under suspicion didnt come from anything medically related, it came from a bulk chemical supplier who i dont think refers or catagorizes it as a drug, not sigma , but another. I suspect it still is DL- but i have seen it cause some strong reactions in myself and others, people have said it is very very much stronger than vial k, and i have seen it do the same.
i have a samle of ketalar cooked ketamine and it is quite a bit less potent, and in addition it has a slightly different feel to it, not something i can put in words, i didnt even notice until the first time i did this other kind.
As for someone producing a pure isomer, i have a picture of a foreign vial with pure (+), i believe it may be for human use although im not sure, whats suprising is that it states that the mix (+) and (-) causes emergence phenomina in the monograph, and we also know that pure (+) doesnt do that, and (-) is responsible. I believe eventually it will be refined to pure (+).
It isnt terribly difficult for a real labritory to refine them apart, the USP grade mandates certain things like the percentage, content of heavy metals, and such, and all are met or it isnt used. If it were a part of the USP designation for ketamine to be a pure isomer, it would all be (+) .
------------------
~The Recreational Pharmacist (Ketamike)
I have never belonged wholeheartedly to country or State, to my circle of friends or even to my own family...
Such isolation is sometimes bitter, but I do not regret being cut off from the understanding and sympathy of other men.
I lose something by it,to be sure, but I am compensated for it in being rendered independent of the customs,
opinions and prejudices of others, and am not tempted to rest my peace of mind upon such shifting foundations.
--Albert Einstein
My AIM: TheTripDoctor (always on)
[This message has been edited by TheTripDoctor (edited 07 May 2001).]
 
Trip,
The difference in potency and feel can be explained without the isomer issue. The vials contain other salts in the solution along with ketamine. When you cook the vial down then you will get roughly 20% of non-ketamine salts along with your ketamine. That 20% alone could explain the difference in potency. As for the difference in feel that you mention, I'm not too familiar with that and I'm not sure quite what you mean, but perhaps that could be caused by the ingestion of the preservative salts in question.
As for the isolating a particular isomer, I believe this is MUCH more difficult than purifying ketamine from other things such as heavy metals, biproducts, and other contaminants. Other contaminants have different boiling points, they react differently in different solvents, etc, etc. The two isomers on the other hand react in almost identical ways as chemicals and therefore you cannot use differential boiling points, or other simply extractions to isolate them. Because this is such a task I do not foresee this becoming a large-scale production replacing the racemic mixture.
Regarding the picture you saw of a vial with pure (+)....I'd love to see that. Could you dig up that picture and post the link or email the picture? It seems odd that someone would go through the trouble of purifying an isomer and then "contaminating" it with other salts in some vial.
Thanks.
 
Great discussion.
Doc, the links you posted are broken though. If you could fix 'em that'd be excellent. I'd love to read up on this a little.
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A pipefull a day keeps the doctor away
  • AIM = CaucasianHomeboy
 
Pure (+) vial
http://www.brainmachines.com/body_ketamine.html
The other is a page about ketamine and the studies about the differences in the isomers,
i know you cant separate isomers with boiling points, nor could a clandestine chemist do it easily, or at all, but a real lab could do it if they needed to, quite cheaply i assure you. If it was a specification in the USP for ketamine (this one is USP23) you wouldnt even see (-) at all, its only because noone has changed the requirements from mixed to pure isomer. As for potency, most vials have benzethonium chloride and not more than 1mg in the whole thing, making it .1% not 20% , there isnt any other preserve in it except the one on another post with 3mg or so per ML. This could be explained by the Ratio of (+) to (-) although im not sure which is in higher amounts here, i am almost sure its not 50/50.
------------------
~The Recreational Pharmacist (Ketamike)
I have never belonged wholeheartedly to country or State, to my circle of friends or even to my own family...
Such isolation is sometimes bitter, but I do not regret being cut off from the understanding and sympathy of other men.
I lose something by it,to be sure, but I am compensated for it in being rendered independent of the customs,
opinions and prejudices of others, and am not tempted to rest my peace of mind upon such shifting foundations.
--Albert Einstein
My AIM: TheTripDoctor (always on)
[This message has been edited by TheTripDoctor (edited 08 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by TheTripDoctor (edited 08 May 2001).]
 
i don't know if this applies to ketamine but you can producer S-isomer MDMA by using only S-isomer methylamine to make it.
trip - what strong reactions did this particularly special k produce?
 
in that case i apologize.
(eight builds gallows that plays rock-around-the-clock and promptly hangs himself on it)
 
In the country I live the product name for S-ketamine is Ketanest-S. It's used in induction and maintenance of general anesthesia and in emergency anesthesia. It can be also used as a co-medication of regional/local anesthesia.
 
great topic and it sheads some light on why when i would get Ketamina the (grey label with red on) why I never got a 'mind fuck' from it. I would just get 'tranquilized'. No fun colors, no weird thougths going thru my head. but when i got some Ketaphorte 1000, the effects where MIND boggling<sp>.
One nite at this guys house after a party, I did about 100mg sniffed.. now this was after about 6 hours of bumping it thru-out the night. Now it was about 5am.. very much cracked out feeling and it was 3 of us sitting in guys appartment.. i broke that out and sniffed it then. About 10mins later I was GONe.. literaly GONE.. I was looking over at my friend and his head became the shape of Mr. Garrason on South Park.. and then it lifted off just like his does in the old beginnings of the show. it had a string and everything!! haha.. then the room started to spin and I got thrown into a 'death trip'. I was having flash backs of my horrid death/hell experience i had back in november on a large amount of 'suposedly weak' liq acid. I thought that me and my friends were in the 'devils pin', he was keeping us there untill we realized that we were dead and then he was going to take us down the hell with him. When my friend did his line of k, he got sucked up by the dollar and it was like the dollar was a vacum and he was getting sucked up. It sucked him up to his waist and I was wigging out, but i wasnt saying anything, i couldnt. Then I started smelling the ash smell and I couldnt remember where i was.. I was in REM sleep while awake. I had to shake my head vigerously to 'come to'. I was dreaming while awake, somehting that an aticle someone posted awhile back stated can and does happen with ketamine. it was down right scary guys. I was in a dream.. but i was awake... i cant stress that enough... but after about 30 mins.. i was just "k'ed up"
oh man, that 30 mins was the most intense experience i have EVER had on ANY DRUG... except my 'death trip'.
well i hope i didnt ramble too bad
 
this is a GREAT topic -
smile.gif
- good gob guys - very informative
Mella
 
Cannot fault discussion, but would be good if you could keep your arrogance under control doc....misinformation is not what we need but neither is bullshit like this
 
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