• CD Moderators: someguyontheinternet
  • Cannabis Discussion Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules

Purging Bho methods

justtakethat

Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 21, 2014
Messages
800
Location
Southern California
If you vaccume purge do you also heat purge it? If so for how long? Also does anyone blast onto oil slick pads or parchment paper? I know thats supposed to be bad but was wondering how many people actually do it
I would think skipping the heat purging and going straight to vaccume would be efficent, is it not efficent as both or does it not matter
 
it's a waste of time. butane boils at around the freezing point of water, so unless you're thinking of leaving the evap dish in the freezer, there's no need to purge because it's already purging itself!
 
hmm everyone I know vacuum purges under low heat for at least 24 hours, longest I've heard being around 72 hours which was probably excessive. People say that you should vac purge under low heat until it stops "reacting" or bubbling up and starts to stabilize.

pouring thinner layers seems to produce more of a shatter final product as well, from what I have heard.

I understand the boiling point of butane is much lower than room temp, but I believe butane can become trapped in the oil and vacuum pressure and heat will help ease it out from what I understand.
 
I believe butane can become trapped...

that's exactly the problem, so many people believe it that they think it's truth. if someone wants to waste their time purging that's their prerogative, if they're skeptical that it's pointless then i'll just repeat what i said the last time: GO ASK A CHEMIST!
 
I don't know any chemist to ask, otherwise I probably would...

Even if I were to ask a chemist, I may get a reasonable response but that doesn't mean it anywhere close to the truth. Experience in chemistry doesn't mean experience in making concentrates- and even still I would think a truly good chemist would test their hypothesis. What makes you so certain

If what you are saying is true, then why do we see BHO contaminated butane- by your logic all oil will be 100% free of butane if I blasted into a cup outside in 40 degree weather. At what point are you saying the butane is boiling off completely if you are saying purge process is a waste of time

Also, I'd like to know your process for making your BHO. Why are these extraction labs wasting money on expensive vacuum ovens, as well as "wasting" tons of space, resource, and energy on the purge process if it truly is a waste of time.. Why do you say it's a waste and where do you get your source from
 
If you vaccume purge do you also heat purge it? If so for how long? Also does anyone blast onto oil slick pads or parchment paper? I know thats supposed to be bad but was wondering how many people actually do it
I would think skipping the heat purging and going straight to vaccume would be efficent, is it not efficent as both or does it not matter

also don't blast onto anything but glass. I don't personally or know anyone that does anything different, unless they have a closed loop which is food grade stainless.
 
Even if I were to ask a chemist, I may get a reasonable response but that doesn't mean it anywhere close to the truth. Experience in chemistry doesn't mean experience in making concentrates- and even still I would think a truly good chemist would test their hypothesis. What makes you so certain

It's literally the same as if you were to boil all the water out of a pot and for some reason imagine that there's water remaining "trapped" in the bone-dry salt remaining. Chemists would know this sort of shit because it's kind of their job to make sure a product that is "99.99999999%" pure is actually that pure down to the mole.

If what you are saying is true, then why do we see BHO contaminated butane- by your logic all oil will be 100% free of butane if I blasted into a cup outside in 40 degree weather. At what point are you saying the butane is boiling off completely if you are saying purge process is a waste of time

I haven't seen any BHO contaminated by butane. I think maybe people are confused because there is cheap butane out there with other impurities that are left behind but vacuum purging won't remove those anyway.

Also, I'd like to know your process for making your BHO. Why are these extraction labs wasting money on expensive vacuum ovens, as well as "wasting" tons of space, resource, and energy on the purge process if it truly is a waste of time.. Why do you say it's a waste and where do you get your source from

I have no idea why they're wasting money on vacuum chambers when, AFAIK, no other industry uses them for this kind of process. Can you explain why people have for centuries been spending their whole lives building ornate cathedrals to worship gods from? That's the power of belief, the results don't have to be quantified if people see you making BHO with fancy lab-grade bullshit and feel better about buying from you instead of from someone like me who just pumps a can of Colibri through a copper water pipe.

and to clarify, I don't sell BHO or any other drugs
 
I've seen lab tests for non-purged BHO...it's disgusting. There is absolutely residual butane (there's pentane and n-pentane in more but there will be butane if it's not purged). Industry standard is 72 hours minimum in a vacuum oven that's under 100*F. Some companies advertise over 110 hours and have product that tests well and still tastes good (no overwhelming loss of terpenes to vacuum). I've seen tests and for slabs flipped every 12 hours, going past 72 doesn't seem to have much difference. I'll admit I can't describe the science to you, but there has to be a reason they're called "de-gassing ovens." I don't know if it's because BHO is so viscous but you really REALLY shouldn't be telling people there's no point in purging.
 
i will immediately about-face if i can see the tests and methodology and related explanation for why butane would act contrary to the principles at work. what exactly is the industry standard you're referring to here? I am asking because you recently posted an interesting blurb in another thread lamenting the state of standards in THC testing.

there's no sense in arguing if someone can produce an unbiased, verifiable, authoritative document that provides evidence that butane does remain somehow trapped in a product it is otherwise actively working to escape from. but nobody has done so the last few times this topic has come up, and nobody is doing so now, which is why i am simply encouraging people to ask a chemist, and if someone does, then please add a response quoting said chemist so we can finally get to the bottom of this crazy issue.
 
Industry standard as in, nobody will buy your product if you advertise you only purge for 24 hours, or don't purge at all.

I believe you're also mis-stating how the boiling point works, since the boiling point would change as it's mixed with cannabinoids (I think?). Also, no one has ever advocated self-purging BHO. EVER (to my knowledge). Even back in the 70s when they did this shit with PVC pipe they would still leave the Pyrex of oil out in the sun for 3-5 days to allow it to be heat purged.

Standard in CO is 500PPM of residual solvent I believe, which there is no way you can accomplish without vac ovens. Nobody evens tries. BHO will literally spark if you don't purge it.

I'm not going to look for the tests because I think it's a settled issue tbh, but you can find interesting information on the IG of @bretmaverick (though he's lost like 6 accounts and some of the info with them). I don't make BHO, I just consume it, and I want to do so in as safe a manner as possible so I just read what I find (and I would never consume BHO that wasn't purged). Shit, if it doesn't look right I won't dab it. You could also check out Pissing Excellence, Matt Rize, and the websites of Steep Hill and other labs. All people that would vouch for the importance of purging and have tested their work (or are a lab).
 
Here is part of an interview with a guy who runs a lab and regularly test BHO.
" When you’re testing for concentrates there are several different consistencies – like wax, budder, shatter, etc. Does one consistency generally test “dirtier” than the others?
Based on what we've seen, I would say shatters are consistently dirtier then budders. Then again, I've worked for a couple companies that do some forms of shatters that never have any contamination in it, so it's kind of a hard question. There are so many variables that contribute to “dirty” BHO.

What's the best or worst brand of butane to make BHO?
A lot of people think N-Butane is great to run with because the closed-loop system is a cleaner way to run stuff. In the test results I've seen, it’s not necessarily the cleanest way to run it. It looks like there's much more of a saturation happening in a closed-loop system with N-Butane. I don't think the people have their timing right there. I think the product is sitting in the gas and the liquid a lot longer and the molecular structure of N-Butane is a chain, just like the tail end of the THC cannabinoid structure, so there's a bonding going on there.

So running with just N-Butane wouldn't be as good as running with a combination of Propane, ISO Butane and N-Butane?
In the 1,000 samples that I've seen so far, I would say N-Butane probably has shown significantly dirtier results. Usually, runs using Newport, Vector or a Power x5 canned gas test at an average of 1-3 PPM – and that’s from somebody who I would consider to be an extraction artist. I would say generally that canned gases are cleaner."
http://www.hightimes.com/read/herbal-synergy-lab-testing-cannabis-and-concentrates



Also, the whole boiling water in an empty pot analogy is completely irrelevant. We are not just simply trying to boil off butane in an empty pot. We are trying to extract butane that has saturated another substance without burning or changing said substance.



And by industry standard, I am talking about the standard of the legitimate cannabis industry(and even large parts of the illegitimate cannabis industry) that has generated billions of dollars already. It would be silly to assume that your chemist friend has more knowledge and expertise on the subject than the people directly involved in this highly competitive and progressive industry. It would also be assuming that out of all these people who are capable of what the industry has achieved this far, no one has stopped and researched their industry or product. If anyone has a religious type of faith to what it is they believe, it is you.
 
Last edited:
edit: we shuoldn't put too much faith into labs that have little to no regulation.
 
Last edited:
The standard in CO is 50 ppm.

I can't speak for medical states that have not legalized it yet, but I can say with confidence that legal (recreational) states have strict regulations already in place. Each one varies, but the legal states do indeed have working regulations in place. These types of regulations will only become more legitimate as cannabis becomes legal on a federal level.

"The legal limit for residual butane in state-certified hash oil labs is 500 ppm in Washington and 50 ppm in Colorado."

http://www.buzzfeed.com/amandachicagolewis/is-hash-oil-safe#.um4377gp1


Obviously the need for testing is not limited to butane contaminants but others as well and those types of tests are also carried out.
 
Why explain chemistry to someone who doesn't know what flash points or boiling points are?

This is a harm reduction site, and I counted tons of mistakes by the OP. yall should be ashamed by helping the OP's ego by making him think it's acceptable.

But then again I get it....it's all for debate but please have credible information like FACTS.

In my opinion, this guy needs to stop before he hurts himself or someone he knows. If it doesn't blow up in his face, the contamination will eventually get to his health.

No hard feelings thujone, felonious monk, Wolfgang, or mafioso.
 
Because someone explained it to you when you didn't know what they were...

It's not like we are posting a tutorial on how to blast encouraging anyone to do so. Really all this information is plastered all over the web, if anything being able to discuss the information that is already out there will hopefully lead to more people making and purging BHO the right way, rather than cutting corners and ultimately hurting themselves or anyone who consumes their product.

Unless you have some "credible information and facts" to add, sounds like you are just piping in your negativity.

If you really are the expert you present yourself as, why not offer some practical safety advice.. might be received a little better and people will probably actually listen to you.
 
Industry standard as in, nobody will buy your product if you advertise you only purge for 24 hours, or don't purge at all.

this is the crux of this issue. if everyone believes that purging is absolutely necessary then it becomes necessary for any company hoping to compete in this niche to invest in the equipment. suddenly there's a strong incentive to keep promoting the notion that purging is worthwhile, because it protects the position of those who are invested in it.

I believe you're also mis-stating how the boiling point works, since the boiling point would change as it's mixed with cannabinoids (I think?).

i'm not sure how much the solution raises the boiling point of butane, i'm using the low boiling point to emphasize that butane is a solvent inclined towards being a vapour rather than a liquid, so while vacuum purging increases the rate at which that normally happens, there is no evidence that vacuum purging actually does anything more than just help the natural process along.

Also, no one has ever advocated self-purging BHO. EVER (to my knowledge). Even back in the 70s when they did this shit with PVC pipe they would still leave the Pyrex of oil out in the sun for 3-5 days to allow it to be heat purged.

i leave my dish out in the open too, the wind is my vacuum chamber and the sun my oven! this sort of anecdata doesn't mean anything without knowing the total batch volume or surface area or ambient temperature because all those factors will affect the evaporation rate.

I'm not going to look for the tests because I think it's a settled issue tbh

with no evidence, and not even being able to articulate why you think BHO is so special that it entraps errant solvent molecules, you think it's justified to call it settled?

i don't think it's a settled issue even though i strongly suspect it's bullshit. if finding any credentialed chemist and asking them to verify is infeasible, alternatively i can suggest looking at the vast tomes of research related to this very common procedure (A/B extraction) and specifically what is related to [pure] non-polar solvents (e.g. butane, xylene, toluene, acetone) and if you can find a single shred of evidence to support what you say then there will be some justification to draw conclusions but until then all we really have are the words of people who have clear incentive to make vacuum purging look good because it means profit for them.
 
isn't the fact that low pressure = lower boiling points and high pressure = higher boiling points evidence> You even state yourself that you are not sure how much butane being in the solution raises the boiling point, so clearly you have no evidence one way or another. So then what exactly makes you certain that vac purging is a waste of time and that all the butane will instantly evaporate>

I don't get how you are disputing this. everything will boil easier under a vacuum, and if your initial presumption was correct, where does all the dirty BHO come from

I would like to see some of your evidence. Are you suggesting a collusion between vacuum oven retailers, dispensaries, and extract artist> Because that is the only way massively increasing the cost and time of production makes would make more money. If it is flat out fraud why would they actually go through the trouble of vac purging, why not just lie to people about that too... i mean you already convinced them they need to vac purge, must be good at selling bs then.

Why even waste $10k+ on a food grade stainless steel etraction machine when you could just glue a bunch of 4" pvc together and blast into a 5 gallon bucket, probably make one for less than 100 bucks. Then tell everybody if it isn't food grade closed loop vac purged dewaxed, like yours, then it isn't good.......

Or is the collusion really between dispensaries and extraction machine and vac oven retailers, with the retailers giving fat kick backs to the dispensaries for mandating everyone have vac purged stuff

because it cost more to make it
dispensaries then have to pay more for it(don't confuse that with it being more profitable)
and the end users have to pay more for it(don't confuse that with being ripped off)

so who is really profiting from this supposed lie
 
Last edited:
well I suppose there is a possibility that some butane could stay dissolved in the hash oil (which is in this case the "solvent" for the butane). but don't quote me on this...
 
I don't get how you are disputing this. everything will boil easier under a vacuum, and if your initial presumption was correct, where does all the dirty BHO come from

This right here. If BHO purges itself than it should be impossible for a lab to test butane as a residual solvent because it would have self-purged by the time it gets to the lab.

As for who's profiting....Across International. They took a company from basically nothing to a defining provider for the industry in less than 10 years. I'm not saying there's any collusion or conspiracy or anything (there's not, just safer concentrates), just that AI is making bank. Same with the folks who make the CLS systems but to a lesser extent as there's much more competition.

But like you said, it's not the oil makers or even dispensaries, they were making the most money when their costs were lowest.
 
I think there's very simple thermodynamic and chemical reasons for residual butane and other impurities, despite boiling points. Let's use the early genius of testing lead levels in the environment through ice cores... when a substance crystalizes (especially in kinetically favorable conditions, say... room temp THC/CBD oil) it crystallizes with gases still trapped inside the lattice. Increasing the temperature (heat) and decreasing the pressure (vacuum) allows the product to become viscous enough to allow the gas to become mobile within the semi-liquid state; the vacuum allows the partial pressure of the butane to be siphoned off, as well as as decreasing the boiling point. This is important because even the some of the lowest vaporization temperature gases (like nitrogen and oxygen) will maintain a consistent concentration in liquids due to the partial pressure at the surface of the liquid. One method (heat or vacuum) alone may not be enough, thus the low-heat vacuum machines. These are scientific facts, you cannot argue that a gas simply disappears from a solution because the temperature is much past it's boiling point (as every dissolved gas in water would tell you). Purging is a pretty responsible step to take unless you truly let the residue dry in the sun during the summer for ~ a week
 
Top