• LAVA Moderator: Shinji Ikari

Psychics and whatnot

Why is this a debate?
Because it needs to be.
When people make claims to be able to do things that are clearly outside of the very well established laws of science, then a significant amount of proof is necessary to take these people seriously. At least in the modern west this is absolutely the case. In other parts of the world psychic and similar phenomena are well accepted.

I do believe that some psychic phenomena is real. It's the people who try to make money or get famous off of these sorts of things that make me skeptical. I would be very surprised if there is a legitimate psychic in the "modern" world. I'm pretty convinced that our modern civilization has lost touch with our true spiritual roots and is thus incapable of tapping in to our true spiritual potential.
 
Because it needs to be.
Please read my post above :)

When people make claims to be able to do things that are clearly outside of the very well established laws of science, then a significant amount of proof is necessary to take these people seriously.
So we have our well established laws of science, which are obviously very important for making logical deductions in every aspect of the observable universe as we know it. But who are we, mere humans, to say that there is nothing more than that? Sure we are intelligent creatures but is what we can see, touch, hear, sense, ALL that there is?? Just because we don't have the technology to quantify whatever "paranormal" stuff people might refer to, doesn't mean it isn't there at all.
Don't get me wrong, I am an extremely scientific person and generally if I can't sense it with our traditional human senses, I'm not willing to say it exists. BUT I think it's fairly ignorant of us to say that if something's not measurable it doesn't exist at all. Perhaps we should just say that we can't yet measure it, and leave it at that. Know what I mean?

I would be very surprised if there is a legitimate psychic in the "modern" world. I'm pretty convinced that our modern civilization has lost touch with our true spiritual roots and is thus incapable of tapping in to our true spiritual potential.
I wouldn't be so sure of that mate :)
There are nearly 7 billion people in the world, let's say approximately 3 billion of those are considered to be in modern developed civilisations. That's a whole lot of people to say that there isn't even ONE legitimate psychic :)
 
Please read my post above :)
I was more referring to people who attempt to get money or fame from these supposed abilities. People are of course free to believe whatever they choose to, but when someone tries to exploit people's beliefs, then absolutely they should expect a debate(or more). If someone I know and care about is being sucked into a cult, then you bet I'm gonna step in and try to stop it. If this means "changing their beliefs", or trying to, then so be it. Sorry if that's a crappy example but it's one that came to mind.


So we have our well established laws of science, which are obviously very important for making logical deductions in every aspect of the observable universe as we know it. But who are we, mere humans, to say that there is nothing more than that? Sure we are intelligent creatures but is what we can see, touch, hear, sense, ALL that there is?? Just because we don't have the technology to quantify whatever "paranormal" stuff people might refer to, doesn't mean it isn't there at all.
Of course not, I was never trying to suggest this. The laws of science are always changing, and what we "know" today isn't necessarily what we "know" tomorrow. As I said, paranormal phenomena is well accepted in certain parts of the world, and no further proof is necessary as the legitimacy of these things has been well established. Take the chakras for example. The existence, awareness, and proper manipulation of the chakras is 100% necessary for things like acupuncture and the like. But as far as I'm aware(someone correct me if I'm wrong), modern science has yet to recognize the chakras as being legitimate. Does this mean they don't exist? Of course not.
As I said, I am fully convinced that psychic(and plenty of other paranormal) phenomenon is real. What I am not convinced of is whether this type of phenomenon has truly withstood the test of time. There are few cultures left in the world that are in touch with, or even aware of our true spiritual roots.
Of course there are exceptions, like perhaps a genetic difference or something, but these types of things are just that, a difference, an exception. What is true for these rare people isn't necessarily what is true for the rest of us.

I wouldn't be so sure of that mate :)
There are nearly 7 billion people in the world, let's say approximately 3 billion of those are considered to be in modern developed civilizations. That's a whole lot of people to say that there isn't even ONE legitimate psychic :)
Fair enough. That was a bit of exaggeration anyway on my part. Sorry about that.
But how many of these people start honing their abilities from birth? It's been said that we rapidly lose our psychic connection with others within the first few years of our lives, and to me this is entirely plausible. Every single person I've thought that might actually have legitimate psychic abilities(in the US only roughly a half dozen or less) has been aware of them since they were quite young(5 or younger) and has spent the large majority of their childhood and teen years developing these abilities. Of course this is all what they claim I was not there or anything.

Edit - I used to be much more into this subject than I am currently, so I'm sure as I think and remember more I will have more to say, and will be able to flesh out my thoughts better. :)
 
Last edited:
I feel the same way about anything paranormal: If it can't be proven without doubt, I'm not going to buy into it. Believe me, I would *love* to know there's something else in the universe or an afterlife, but I'm not going to embrace these ideas without being objective and considering the fact that no one has ever proven any of these things beyond a shadow of a doubt.

As far as psychics go, I've always felt the ones who make money are just really good at reading people and making broad generalizations sound extremely personal. All of the things this woman said could apply to just about anyone =/ Has anyone seen the South Park episode about this? It was spot on concerning psychics taking advantage of people in dire times (after a family member's death, a divorce, etc. which is usually when folks seek these people out and are extremely vulnerable to anything).

Now, I'm not saying it's impossible, but I personally don't buy into it at this point in my life. If it makes someone feel better about their path in life then good for them.
 
MrM, you misunderstand what I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to say that you are wrong, and that people who believe in psychics are right. I'm just trying to help you understand that people are allowed to believe whatever they want to believe. When it comes to personal beliefs, no-one is wrong. Who are you, one mere person, to try and make people discard their thoughts and opinions?

I have never argued that people shouldn't be allowed to believe what they want.

It is true that if someone believes something, they are not mistaken in thinking this is their belief. However, their belief can be wrong. Just because a belief is personal does not mean the person holding that belief cannot be mistaken. To suggest otherwise seems completely silly.

Believing in psychics is not a subjective truth like believing jam on toast tastes nice. It is an objective truth. Either these people can do what they claim or they cannot. Either i am mistaken to believe it is a load of rubbish or i am correct and others are mistaken to put their faith in psychics.

You are entitled to your own opinion, just as everyone else is. Please just be a bit more respectful to other people's ideals. If you don't like what people are saying in threads like this, there is a perfect solution.....don't read them ;)

Thank you.

I do not dislike what other people have been saying. As far as i am concerned it has been a good debate, though if other people don't like what i am saying then i would suggest they follow your excellent advice here.

I respect people. I do not necessarily respect their ideas. Especially when i think those ideas are silly. Like psychics and whatnot.

I think the measure of upset that some people feel when belief in psychic powers and similar is analysed critically is strangely close to the kind of upset that people feel when their religion is criticised. This suggests to me the two are similar in some way and that one should be similarly careful when taking the believers opinion as fact with either subject.

The existence, awareness, and proper manipulation of the chakras is 100% necessary for things like acupuncture and the like. But as far as I'm aware(someone correct me if I'm wrong), modern science has yet to recognize the chakras as being legitimate.

I read of a study that showed acupuncture is similarly effective when you stick the needles in random areas of fatty tissue (i.e. avoid eyes etc) as when you use the ancient method that revolves around chakras etc. Link

Oh, and for the record;

n3ophy7e said:
It's not a debate if YOU are the only person trying to make a debate

Macee said:
What are you experiences with psychics and this sort of stuff? do you know someone who is a psychic? all full of shit or not?

If someone asks for a discussion involving people's opinions on something where those opinions are likely to differ, that is a debate.
 
Last edited:
A psychic or spiritualist SHOULD be skeptic - in the true sense of the word. That is to say - we seek truth. Upon observation of a phenomena, we are obligated to try and understand and work with it - with an open-minded approach, but lingering skepticism just the same. We have to keep our standards of evidence up after all. Some mediums I know are disgusted by the lack of scientific principal by those who practice.

Of course there is a difference between healthy skepticism and the skepticism that causes someone to fervently dismiss any and all evidence that challenges their paradigm.

A plethora of anecdotal evidence exists on this matter - enough to deem the phenomena worthy of investigation. The fact that any percentage of psychics are incompetent or frauds is inconsequential; it's only logical that some people with little regard for standards or ethics will take interest in this stuff. I would suggest focusing only on the mediums that consistently bring forth evidence - specific accurate information that they couldn't possibly have known - not the cold-reading bullshit. A good medium does not ask their client any probing questions.

Look into it - you might just gain some added perspective on things. Otherwise, it would be polite to avoid arguing every little pro-psychic thought that is shared in this thread.


MynameisnotDeja - I appreciated your sharing and thought your posts were thoughtful :)


If it helps anyone with a legitimate curiousity, I'll share a couple names of spiritualists I can vouch for. Try Marilyn Awtry (in FL) or Anne Gehman (in NY).

http://www.marilynjawtry.com/about.html
http://www.annegehman.com/ (yeah, her website is terrible LOL)

I'm not going to post my grandmother's name, partly for my own privacy, and partly because advertising wouldn't be appropriate in this discussion. However, a discussion like this does get personal in the end; it's difficult to deny someone's direct experience of practicing or knowing someone very close who practices this phenomena.

Here's my story - some food for thought.
My grandmother had her first reading back in 1969. The medium told her this: "I see a baby boy, conceived in California, born in Florida who will grow up, but never know your teacher". This all seemed completely bogus at the time. My grandmother was pregnant with a girl, (my mother), she had no intention of being in Cali OR Florida, and didn't find it likely that her teacher would die anytime soon.
Fastforward to 1990 - My mom was in the Navy, stationed in California - met my father, leading to their being married and my being conceived. I was born in Florida, but only b/c my father died before I was born, leading my mom to move back here. And as it happened, my grandmother's teacher was no longer around by this point.

Certainly one could argue there are statistical probabilities that SOMEONE in the family will be born under those conditions, and trust me, there are more specific predictions I could share, but I like this one for obvious personal reasons. :)
 
Last edited:
I do think this should be debatable, I see no help in just receiving one sided information, that goes for anything in life.

If there are psychics, I think it's easy for everyone to admit we have no idea how they work.

Perhaps it goes on to the is everything predetermined vs free choice? Or perhaps they can tap in to a future universe? I know this all sounds silly but it's supposed to since we can't answer this question.
Of course it also raises the 'it's a load of shit' response too, and that's fine.

777xog that's interesting, would you be able to share other experiences?
 
Perhaps it goes on to the is everything predetermined vs free choice? Or perhaps they can tap in to a future universe? I know this all sounds silly but it's supposed to since we can't answer this question.

Derren Brown and others like him would disagree. He would say we can answer this question; that all of these apparent abilities can be duplicated by himself using his various entirely explainable non magical talents.

Anyone who's watched Darren Brown perform will realise that he can run rings round most self claimed 'real' psychics in terms of the impressiveness and inexplicability of the things he is able to do.

It's just the fact people want to believe in magical powers etc that causes them to suspend their disbelief enough that someone like Darren Brown can take advantage.

If there are psychics, I think it's easy for everyone to admit we have no idea how they work.

I should admit though that until you test every psychic on the planet there is always the chance there is one psychic out there somewhere who really is psychic. I cannot prove this isn't the case 100%. I just consider the fact that the most convincing 'psychic' i've ever seen was a self confessed trickster combined with the fact there is no explanation other than trickery for how the rest of them work means that it is more likely not to be real. Occams Razor in effect.

I do think this should be debatable, I see no help in just receiving one sided information, that goes for anything in life.

Agreed.


People seem to have a galmorised view of psychics, mediums and spiritualists in other less developed countries. Some idea that these people living in more basic technological and economical societies are more in touch with nature or spirituality.

Rise in African children accused of witchcraft

As it turns out there are certain advantages to a rational way of thinking about these issues.
 
I think what is being called into question here in terms of debatability is not whether or not psychic abilities exist, but whether you believe a person when s/he says "this thing happened to me". Sometimes people get prickly if they feel like someone thinks they're crazy or lying.

But now that I've said that, I don't see how to separate the theoretical from the personal when you're talking about this stuff. It is a polarizing issue that, at some point, is bound to cross the line between arguing against someone's IDEAS, and arguing against someone's EXPERIENCES.

Hmmmm....dunno how to fix it......for the record though, I've enjoyed the debate :)
 
Last edited:
I think what is being called into question here in terms of debatability is not whether or not psychic abilities exist, but whether you believe a person when s/he says "this thing happened to me". Sometimes people get prickly if they feel like someone thinks they're crazy or lying.

But now that I've said that, I don't see how to separate the theoretical from the personal when you're talking about this stuff. It is a polarizing issue that, at some point, is bound to cross the line between arguing against someone's IDEAS, and arguing against someone's EXPERIENCES.

You are absolutely spot-on vox. With a sensitive topic like this where people's experiences are usually quite emotional, there is indeed a very fine line between debating the existance and mechanism of the psychic realm, or just downright questioning and mocking people's beliefs. Which is why we must be cautious with what we say and how we say it in a discussion such as this.
 
GarySpivey.jpg
 
Top