Psychedelics & Divinity

[Anon0631]

I'm not christian or anything, but this thread is disappointing. I wish those that don't share a mindset with black metal had just stayed out. I was just curious to see what sort of discussion had occurred here and mostly it's just people bashing.

Oh? So someone enters a public forum promoting one of the world's worse ever ideas. An idea which has led to countless genocides, innumerable pointless wars, chastisement, alienation and the ripping apart of families for thousands of years, casually requests that nobody criticises his/her beliefs and expects that the request will be respected? Well no. I care too much about religion's ability to tear apart the fabric of society to worry about whether my objection will offend an internet stranger.

Bingo! According to the Catholic Church, Biblical admonitions against drunkenness mean that to drink so much that you do not know what you are doing is a mortal sin, to be tipsy is only a venial sin, and anything less than that is perfectly fine.

And in other parts of the bible the exact opposite message is given. In the story of the Maccabee rebellion god commands the Jewish people to commemorate the event by drinking so much that they are unable to differentiate between the names "mordechi" (the hero of the story) and "haman" (the evil dude). This is one of hundreds of inconsistencies which demonstrate that the bible is no more than a compilation of self contradictory nonsense, thrown together to leverage social control over people who would otherwise rise up against the oppressive establishment.

I've always hoped that the use of psychedelics could free us from this slavery but apparently many of us have opened our minds so wide that our brains have fallen out.

the Bible as almost all allegory and metaphor, useful for extracting universal spiritual truths but not a divinely inspired (or authored) revelation of the One True Path.

If it's almost all allogry and metaphor, how do we know which bits aren't? Who makes the decision on which parts are generally informed by divine communication and which bits are simply made up by ancient establishments? What if two people disagree on this? How do we ascertain who's right and who's wrong? Or should we apply occam's razor to the subject and deduce that the whole of it is just useless nonsense?

That we have freedom to choose what we believe protects all belief be it psychedelic "plant spirits", atheism, buddhism, science or whatever.

The fact that you've grouped science with a bunch of belief systems just made me cringe. I think you need to spend 5 minutes reading about what the concept means and how it's practiced.

^This thread wasn't designed to spark debate; it was designed to encourage people to share information about combining religious practices with psychedelics. The OP tried to kindly dissuade people from engaging in pointless discussions unrelated to the topic at hand. It's easy to not be offended by threads you don't like: simply don't read them!

Why do religious people always expect to hold a privileged position where they are immune from criticism despite the nonsense they blurt out? Why is it OK for me to object to someone's belief that there's a magical ingredient in "dirty acid" that gives you a bad trip but when someone proclaims that there's an invisible infanticidal bloodthirsty maniac floating in the sky who created me and everyone else, I'm suddenly expected to shut up and not call them out on believing in a load of utter bullshit? If religious people really believe in the total crap they preach, why are they so sensitive about being "offended" by evidenced based rational thought?

so he created everything in the dark - then invented light - how good is that !!!

It gets better. It was another 2 days before he created the sun and stars so presumably the photons were just hanging around for 48 hours waiting for something to be emitted from.

And that argument you just bashed can apply to the scientific universe as well, what created the matter which existed before the big bang? Or did the universe always exist because humans don't have an understanding of time being infinite or anything infinite for that matter?

May I refer you to the concept of the Hartle-Hawking state? It's a direct explaination of why the question you just asked doesn't make sense when you treat time as a Euclidean dimension.

I find absurd that Christianity just "proves" everything by referencing the bible and most have absolutely no clue who wrote it or why.

Jeremiah compiled the bible form bits and pieces he found on older mythology. He changed some of it but directly plagiarised most of the content (the legend of Gilgamesh for instance). The book of kings is notable as it was probably a fairly accurate historical record while most of the rest was just primitive nonsense. He did take the time to write Deuteronomy himself which is why it makes even less sense than the rest of the random cobbled together idiocy you find in the other books.

You can't take the bible so literally...
Many christians I've met believe god created the universe in its entirety, and allowed to grow the way it has.
He didn't create the earth, he created the universe which in turn created the earth.
Evolution was allowed to take place, and is not considered an affront to god.

That's your interpretation and is not shared by the fundamentalist majority of believers. I can at least have some respect for fundamentalists although I still consider them to be deluded imbeciles. The ones who pick and choose what to believe in to allow for an easy life at the same time as being able to pour derision on others, they're the ones who really wind me up!

You mean what you and your like are doing in this thread towards perfectly peaceful openminded christians and christian sympathizers?

Sorry there's no such thing as a peaceful Christian the same as there's no such thing as a peaceful Jew or a peaceful Muslim. Even if you don't pick up weapons yourself, you are providing a power base for the warmongers and justification in numbers.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Keep in mind the topic is about psychedelic use within a Christian context. This thread is not the "How do you feel about Abrahamic religions?" thread. (A)theism vs misotheism is covered by the Philosophy & Spirituality subforum, not the psychedelics drugs subforum (where, need I remind you, Be Respectful is Rule #1.)

- Works by sympathetic/relevant (Christian) authors

St. Teresa de Avila's Interior Castle is a relevant mystic work, though I find her writing style difficult to bear.

I got very into non-religious eastern thought-schools like Tao and (Zen) Buddhism

Those traditions are very popular with the psychedelically inclined, and there is room for overlap with Christian thinking. I've zoned about out of syncretic thinking, but lemme try to conjure up the idea-space...

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

Because they violently and arrogantly stomp around the planet forcing their self righteous fear and guilt trip on everyone else, look at the damamge the roman catholic church has done in the 3rd world, look at the shamefull way women have been treated by christianity and islam, all in the name of some paternal, insecure, megalomaniac judge - big pappa in the sky, watching everyone masturbate and keeping notes. How sick.

look at the hundreds of thousands of little kids sexually abused by priests.

look at the way the churches keep taking taking taking money from the poor people who can least afford it, with the promise/reasoning that to suffer in this life brings heaven later, what a fucking total crock of self serving, patronizing, infantile shit.

That's why we won't be silenced, and that's why jackasses like you can go fuck yourselves.

Once again, may I remind you I follow no organized religion, and do not believe one organized system of belief should apply to all, however it's PAINFULLY obvious that what people have done based on their interpretations of the bible does not equal what every christian believes.
So the OP is christian, does that mean he fear mongers and molests children? Of course not.
At least I'm open minded enough to realize that you can believe in a religion without having to follow its church.
It's fucking ridiculous to think that the roman catholic church is a perfect representation of all christians and their moral values.
I'm not trying to silence you, just teach you to not associate the church and the wrong doings of people who chose to interpret the teachings of christianity in such a horrible way with all christians.

Why can't people let others believe what they want without trying to bash them or convert them or tell them their way is wrong.
Whatever the fuck you choose to believe is what you want to believe and I have no right to judge you or to prove you wrong, but when you make stupid associations like that, I'm gonna step in and help defend the OP because he should not be ridiculed for his beliefs.

 

[Incunabula]

Why can't people let others believe what they want without trying to bash them or convert them or tell them their way is wrong.

So your telling us not to do, what christians have been doing to us infidels for centuries? fair enough

The abrahamic religions are monoteistic, either you are with them or you are against them. According to christianity/islam/judaism there is only one true god, and that's their god! The rest of us are going to hell for not believing.

And if your new-age pseudo-christian freinds aren't reading the bible like that, then they're doing it wrong. You can't just pick and choose what you like from the bible and discard the bad parts (which is just homofobic and misogynistic backwards nonsense, not fit for the 21th century)

Think really hard about it, christianity isn't worth defending.

 

[rickolasnice]

:D

Loving this thread.. please do head over to Philosophy and Spirituality to carry it on though.. there are few threads aimed for this kind of discussion.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

So your telling us not to do, what christians have been doing to us infidels for centuries? fair enough

The abrahamic religions are monoteistic, either you are with them or you are against them. According to christianity/islam/judaism there is only one true god, and that's their god! The rest of us are going to hell for not believing.

And if your new-age pseudo-christian freinds aren't reading the bible like that, then they're doing it wrong. You can't just pick and choose what you like from the bible and discard the bad parts (which is just homofobic and misogynistic backwards nonsense, not fit for the 21th century)

Think really hard about it, christianity isn't worth defending.

Again you're generalizing and placing people into a group that you normally associate with christianity.
Just because according to the church they are not true practicing christians doesn't change that they believe that they are, and take a different view from the bible as other people.
You are allowed to interpret things different from the masses, and are allowed to hold true to your own beliefs.
I'm not defending christianity as much as I'm defending their right to have their own beliefs without being associated with extremist homophobic christians you so despise.
They wouldn't ever call themselves strict christians as much as they have found teachings in the bible which have helped them through tough times, or find a better sense of their spirituality.

 

[exists]

That's the whole problem with people who's ideology lies in belief instead of direct knowing through the felt presence of immediate experience

Ah, but if I were to say that I have experienced God's power (and I have), you would just turn around and say that I'm deluding myself. Amiright?

If christians really believed what they say they do then they would be out screaming in the streets

What would be the point in that? God's word has already permeated society, and tbh there aren't too many people who haven't heard the news yet.

But call into question someones beliefs and they are totally insecure and shaky when anyone challenges them, that's why no one is allowed to laugh in church, because apparently God, lord of lords, king of kings, master of the entire universe... is a very insecure fellow.

No, I'm not insecure because you are challenging my beliefs. I am upset because the topic of psychedelics as applied to the Christian faith isn't brought up very often. So, when it is finally brought up, what happens? People start derailing the topic by questioning the Christian faith! If you feel so adamant about your point of view, why not strike up a topic elsewhere (P&S, f'instance), and let this topic evolve naturally?

And for the record, I do not condone violence. Anytime people have killed in the name of God, they were not following Jesus' words. My God is forgiving, and He told me to love my neighbors as I would love myself. My God never told me to go out killing people, or to ignore science because it (supposedly) conflicts with certain beliefs.

 

[justinsayno]

If christians really believed what they say they do then they would be out screaming in the streets,

What would be the point in that? God's word has already permeated society, and tbh there aren't too many people who haven't heard the news yet.

Maybe Mr WebbyKevin should clarify what he means..

The way i interpreted is - If the believers really believed why are they not outraged at the way the world is ?

I thought thats what he mean and i agreed with it.

I go to church now n then [ harvest festival time, Xmas and easter - my kids get dragged to church by school to sing a few songs etc ] and what strikes me is how mellow it all is, very cosy and the regulars all look very pleased with themselves.
I would have far more respect for the vicars / priests if they were all red faced and shouty, screaming at the congregation for being so comfortable when so many are hungry, telling them to go out and burn down a bank.
What would jesus do ? I dont know, but i imagine it would be more than going to church once a week, then driving my 4x4 back to my semi detached and watch TV till its time to go back to the office.

So...erm..yeah..nothing to do with psychs...I just found it interesting that we both found different meanings to that sentence.:D

 

[exists]

The way i interpreted is - If the believers really believed why are they not outraged at the way the world is ?

Well, the last time I voiced my outrage, I landed myself in jail (I obviously wasn't listening to the correct voice). I'm not sure how to proceed currently, and my social anxiety is off-the-charts, so yelling in the streets isn't something I envision myself doing in the near future.

But the world is fucked, no doubt about that, and people are just running running running, not paying attention to the greater issues at hand.

What I'd like to do, is learn telepathy so that I can reach everyone at once. I've already stated why I think materialism and the concept of telepathy aren't at odds with each other, in other threads (there may be a sound scientific basis for it), but that doesn't mean I can "prove" its existence just yet

Anyway, my message would consist of these things: use less fossil fuel and other "dirty" energy sources; shorten the distance between home and work; focus on making Earth a garden planet; eat less meat (it takes much more energy to produce food from animals than food from plants); keep exploring science and technology; explore ways of using less energy all-around; stop working for/supporting large corporations; and last but not least, stop killing each other!

So...erm..yeah..nothing to do with psychs...I just found it interesting that we both found different meanings to that sentence.:D

Figures. I'm not always too swift, socially-speaking

 

[flat-line]

Ok I took a step back and thought about the reality Christianity and Psychedelics.

If we look back in history to the first contact Christians had with psychedelics. “Witches” that used herbs? Datura, Fly Agric, etc. The righteous Christians burned them alive while they watched and thanked their “lord”.

Then we have the conquistadors who came in contact with many different tribal shamans. They made their ancient centuries old ceremonies that had psychedelic substances (peyote, mushrooms, too many too list) “illegal”. Then proceeded to destroy all form of them. Then killed, cut off noses, tortured them and other forms of cruel suppression.

Now days we have a legal system built by Christians that sentences thousands and thousands of people to prison each year for using psychedelic drugs.

So a pretty fierce track record of repressing psychedelic drugs by Christianity.

So I try to think of good Christians that use psychedelics... ? Ted Haggard uses meth from time to time ? A Christian guy on Bluelight said he uses them.? and…..?

I'm still seeing death, persecution, hate, suppression, along with some molested alter boys. But I just don't really see much else as far as Christianity and Psychedelics.

 

[exists]

^Much of the same can be said of science, but we do not blame science because people use it incorrectly

 

[exists]

I also relate Romans 6 to dissociating psychedelic experiences.

Hmm, interesting. That chapter is about being "dead to sin," and, in being in a kind of state of death, living. The dissociated state definitely seems like a state of grace, because you can easily shed certain mentalities and behaviors that feel wrong.

 

[DragonFly31]

I am all for spirituality, but I feel one must exist certainly outside of the traditional churches to hold such a thing true as psychelic christianism. Certainly I feel we can agree it's not a common theme.

Such passages as Peter 5:8:

"Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. "

Of course there are many others. But most psychedelic drugs, if not all, have a profoundly intoxicating effect. It's hard for me to see how you can reconcile such passages of the bible with taking psychedelics.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

^Much of the same can be said of science, but we do not blame science because people use it incorrectly

Nuclear and chemical weaponry are the first which come to mind

 

[EarthBounded]

Take some acid at church next sunday and let us know how it goes.

 

[bennyZA]

I knew some friends who took a bunch of acid before a Zen Buddhist all day sitting. So they woke up at 3am, dropped a couple hits each, then did all day zazen sitting (sitting in meditation for 12 hours, with 15 min breaks where you get to stand up and walk every 50 minutes or so) they said it was a terrible, terrible idea.

 

[kidklmx]

The Eastern Orthodox Church considers becoming God-like/coser to divinity (theosis) to be the primary goal of life, and sin is actions that go against this. So sin is a spiritual illness, rather than a legal violation or personal offense against God like the Western sees it.

C'mon, why is everyone ITT overlooking this great discussion between Asante and NKB, which is actually on topic, instead of useless religion bashing? I think people are overlooking the general problem with (Abrahamic) religion. It is not the belief which is inherently bad, it is the abuse by those who seek power which is bad. The problems we (I, too, hate the church) have has more to do with western society, which seeks to control, than with anything else. Please bear in mind that the bible was written by people, some may have their own agenda. It is not the direct word of god that is written, but the findings and interpretations of some people that they've uncovered through their spiritual journey. What we read is even more far off from "the word of god", since it is a translation made by the institution which infamously used that to keep those lowly peasants from thinking so they would mindlessly continue harvesting crops. This is bad, but has nothing to do with "psychedelic christianity". With wars, religion was just used to gain more power, money or land. This speaks to an inherent problem with our world, mindlessly following things is not exclusive to religion, no need to bash those that seek truth.

In pure essence, all religions cover the same thing. This general "feeling" which science does not seem to cover, yet. It's what we all experience through these drugs, so any condescending view on a religion is just pure hypocrisy IMO. You can be a pure atheist, it's certainly the more rationale decision, but then these threads are not for you. And like I said, whatever you find wrong with religion is just part of a bigger problem, why don't we focus our attention to that? (seriously, if every atheist would do that then the world would be a much better place)

P.s I don't have access to a good keyboard right now so I'll probably improve this post later on

 

[Anon0631]

I think people are overlooking the general problem with (Abrahamic) religion. It is not the belief which is inherently bad, it is the abuse by those who seek power which is bad.

No. It is the belief which is inherently bad. The bible is littered with examples of "god" insisting that humans do disgusting things. Examples include infanticide, genocide, offering family members for gang rape, destruction of property, intentional dissemination of pathological illness, racism, theft, fraud.

The bible is the first source to claim the existence of a monotheistic god so you can't remove it from the equation but keep the deity it postulates.

 

[Asante]

Seems like the people for whom this thread was created are either pushed into the defensive or ran out of their own thread, a sad state of affairs.

In my experience with psychedelic Christians and in being a "sympathizer" I notice that the Bible is regarded as a document that holds truth but which got severely tainted by it having been copied down for generations by an entity which has strong interest in the Bible supporting their views: the Church. Christian fundamentalists call that "cherry picking" but doesnt God intend us to eat the cherries and not the leaves, twigs and roots?

1 Thessalonians 5:21

King James Version (KJV)

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

It helps a lot to compare the Bible with other holy manuscripts of other world religions and look for the samenesses, not the differences. Look at science, particularly quantum physics, looking for resopnance of these same truths. But, above all these sources, look inwards because the living Divinity is part of us, whereas in books it is only talked about, often in reference to experiences that we ourselves have not had.

This is what makes psychedelics exceptionally valuable, they do not theorize about reality they influence it, they are like a particle accellerator smashing your reality and letting you examine the bits. Psychedelics magnify that which truly IS within you and especially those parts outside the realm of of words. And there, beyond things we learned, beyond words, there lies Divinity, welcoming us with open arms when we reach out to it. Or, as the Quran puts it:

Allah says, “Take one step towards me, I will take ten steps towards you. Walk towards me, I will run towards you.”
[Hadith Qudsi].

Psychedelics have a tendency, if properly used, to disarm your bias, just like prayer and meditation can.

A Rosary, a Mala, One Way.

 

[Anon0631]

I notice that the Bible is regarded as a document that holds truth but which got severely tainted by it having been copied down for generations by an entity which has strong interest in the Bible supporting their views

A nice theory but unfortunately, entirely untrue. The Dead Sea Scrolls were scribed almost 2500 years ago and are virtually identical to the modern Old Testament.

Look at science, particularly quantum physics, looking for resopnance of these same truths.

Can you show me a respected physicist who would agree with you that quantum mechanics proves religion. No?

[video=youtube_share;09UmufmfSLc]http://youtu.be/09UmufmfSLc[/video]

Religion relies on ignorance. With a little knowledge, all their reasoning falls apart.