Psychedelics & Divinity

[Asante]

The Bible warns against drunkenness yet..

-Jesus declared of wine at the Last Supper "this is my blood"
-Jesus turned water into wine to help facilitate a party.

Note the ritualization of the use of wine during the Last Supper:

Matthew 26:26-30

King James Version (KJV)

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Note that 29 implies approval of the drinking of wine on high Divine level, the drinking of wine either in heaven or upon resurrection.

Alcohol is a GABA agonist and a NMDA antagonist, a sedative and a dissociative. Taken in lower quantities the dissociative qualities are stronger, in higher doses the sedative effects are stronger. We all know this, a couple glasses may inspire, many glasses stupefy. Essentially the sacrament of the Christian churches is a dissociative drug.

Christianity is also associated with the Fly Agaric and it is.. a dissociative also. Coincidence?

What is condemned in the Bible is not wine, it is the sinful abuse of wine, leading to drunkenness for its sake:

Proverbs 23:20f: "Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."
Isaiah 5:11f: "Woe to those who rise early in the morning to run after their drinks, who stay up late at night till they are inflamed with wine. They have harps and lyres at their banquets, tambourines and flutes and wine, but they have no regard for the deeds of the LORD, no respect for the work of his hands."
Galatians 5:19–21: "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: ... drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Ephesians 5:18: "Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit."

Contrast this with the following endorsement of wine itself:

Psalm 104:14f: "[The LORD] makes ... plants for man to cultivate – bringing forth food from the earth: wine that gladdens the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread that sustains his heart."
Ecclesiastes 9:7: "Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do."

God does not appear to disapprove of intoxication in proportion, but rather disapproves of "getting fucked up" and have your sense of duties in life deteriorate as a consequence.

 

[exists]

@Asante, thank you for finding those verses. It seems the dissenters are using half-truths to make a bunch of BS claims that have no real biblical bearing whatsoever, and this thread is being cluttered with nonsense as a result.

It is interesting is how dissociatives are a popular sacrament... there's something about dissociation that seems conducive to experiencing spiritual truths. It must be the "block building" aspect of putting 2-and-2 together that makes things "click."

To those people who are messing up this thread: will you kindly leave? Would you go to a church service or bible study and blurt out your claims? No? Then don't do it here either, please!

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

God does not appear to disapprove of intoxication in proportion, but rather disapproves of "getting fucked up" and have your sense of duties in life deteriorate as a consequence.

Bingo! According to the Catholic Church, Biblical admonitions against drunkenness mean that to drink so much that you do not know what you are doing is a mortal sin, to be tipsy is only a venial sin, and anything less than that is perfectly fine. We can apply this to other substances in theory, though as a practically speaking the Pauline admonition that Christians abide by secular authority leaves most opposed to our activities. I would imagine that most here with an affinity for Christianity do not take it with Born Again seriousness, but see the Bible as almost all allegory and metaphor, useful for extracting universal spiritual truths but not a divinely inspired (or authored) revelation of the One True Path.

Anyway, OP, I don't have time to address your conversation topics at the moment, but I'll get around to it soon.

 

[Sir Ron Pib]

I'm not christian or anything, but this thread is disappointing. I wish those that don't share a mindset with black metal had just stayed out. I was just curious to see what sort of discussion had occurred here and mostly it's just people bashing.

Exactly - that's actually why I posted a response in the first place; it's quite embarrassing really; perhaps I'm old fashioned in thinking psychedelics can make you a better person; that might be questioning religious dogma but it might be also questioning your own beliefs, motivations and behaviour to others; the thread was started by someone with faith in christ who wasn't totally closed minded and rather than engaging with them as a fellow human in what could be an interesting debate they have acted childishly and with hate - ways of acting they want to blame on Christians. That we have freedom to choose what we believe protects all belief be it psychedelic "plant spirits", atheism, buddhism, science or whatever.

Christianity was linked to fly agaric by ONE scholar and not that convincingly IMO.

Anyway I'm not going to say more here - the troll-wanna-bes aren't going to let anyone with a different opinion to them have a platform and aren't going to think about the debate any further than posting fascile smart-assisms

 

[exists]

^This thread wasn't designed to spark debate; it was designed to encourage people to share information about combining religious practices with psychedelics. The OP tried to kindly dissuade people from engaging in pointless discussions unrelated to the topic at hand. It's easy to not be offended by threads you don't like: simply don't read them!

 

[zn13bt]

Hey, we didn't start it, we were participating in a psychedelic discussion forum when suddenly deluded people barged in and started spouting all this religious piffle, if you can't handle debate or other opinions then fuck off back to bible study and go preach to the choir.

You don't seem to have a handle on the fundamental principles of basic human interaction.

 

[jason7]

Maybe if you take the right psychedelic you'll become aware of the true divine presence and realize that it isn't the crude mythological god of the Jews who craved burnt sacrifices and liked to make up weird laws which always seemed to have a clause wherein more laws can be added at any later time when the original contract only stipulated 10. You see, the Divine Presence isn't a "god". A god is a primitive thing in comparison to the Divine Presence. Incidentally, the Divine Presence never had any sons, human or otherwise. Sorry. It simply exists and permeates everything. It doesn't try to rule people or get them to bow down to it because that would be pointless and actually rather self serving and despicable.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

You don't seem to have a handle on the fundamental principles of basic human interaction.

Oh god I lol'd
Really I was excited about the direction this thread might go, but if course it turned into religion bashing.
Shit guys I don't like organized religion either but I can hold on tongue when the OP politely asks so others can share their stories without fear of being made fun of.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

As for specific experiences, I had imagery/thoughts very reminiscent of John Chapter 15 on 2c-e:

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

I also relate Romans 6 to dissociating psychedelic experiences.

 

[Asante]

An important way wherein I deviate from Christian orthodoxy, lets start with quoting the very beginning of the Bible, and thereof the first 2 days of creation:

Genesis 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

What much of orthodox christianity insists God is doing here is create a universe outside of himself, like a carpenter makes a table or a painter makes a painting. I see it completely differently: God is creating dualities out of his Wholeness, and this makes the universe in all of its guises PART of that God, and not a creation outside of it. If you read Genesis 1 in that way. its completely in line with Hinduism, Buddhism and the like.

That would make everything a part of God and as a consequence, ourselves also. Jesus has this to say about it:

John 10:30-38

King James Version (KJV)

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

But here the Bible and I depart. Personally I believe in that every single thing is Divine and essential to the Whole. That we have a path that goes from the lowest state of consciousness to the highest and then back to the lowest, forevermore, and that we in fact ARE that one God in all of its guises. So there is only YOU and nothing but YOU, and all you do unto others you do unto yourself. So maybe thats behind:

Matthew 7:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Since in my worldview there is only that one God and nothing beyond it, and we are all facets of that same gem, I don't believe in sin on the God level. In every dilemma both options are good, as God is you, the dilemma and any of the outcomes. The only way you can go astray is to choose away from, rather towards, the shortest route to the highest evolution, becoming the Highest Consciousness. But theres only eternal journey, no definitive parking in eternal reward or damnation. By splitting himself up into dualities God made of himself a lowest and highest consciousness, and as our essence is consciousness we go that journey forevermore. No sin, everything is God's Will, no eternal Heaven or Hell, all of us BEING that one God...

That would make most Christians very uncomfortable to consider me one of their own, as it deviates considerably from common Christian dogma. But my entheogenic journeys and sober meditations and philosophizing all point to it, and this interpretation of things resonates with all world religions.

To get back ontopic:

God speaks to you within yourself, and its within yourself that you willl find him. Psychedelics are all about looking within yourself. They whack your senses so hard that reality comes apart to a degree, and with it your unspoken assumptions come apart. You are forced to question and look beyond that which you held as true, old secure beliefs no longer offer comfort. What greater way is there to find God than in this whirlwind of sensory distortions, where only the essence of You and God remain unchanged? Society distracts us with its smoke and mirrors, but eat from that fungus, or that cactus, and for several hours you are strongly invited to look within.

 

[Incunabula]

so he created everything in the dark - then invented light - how good is that !!!

lol

......and then there's the question "but who made god?" Oh yeah, "god is eternal" right. ha ha my ass. The human mind can't fathom the concept "eternity". it's just a semantic defense of a completely illogical religion, created to maintain power in Europe when the roman empire was waning.

The God Delusion! it's hard to have any respect what so ever for any of the abrahamic religions after watching that documentary. Some people just want to be deluded.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

lol

......and then there's the question "but who made god?" Oh yeah, "god is eternal" right. ha ha my ass. The human mind can't fathom the concept "eternity". it's just a semantic defense of a completely illogical religion, created to maintain power in Europe when the roman empire was waning.

The God Delusion! it's hard to have any respect what so ever for any of the abrahamic religions after watching that documentary. Some people just want to be deluded.

So why can't you let them follow their beliefs if it brings them peace without finding a way to call them idiots?
You're a jackass, and the way religion has been misinterpreted thousands of years later has nothing to do with what good things someone can take from the bible or from religion in general.
And that argument you just bashed can apply to the scientific universe as well, what created the matter which existed before the big bang? Or did the universe always exist because humans don't have an understanding of time being infinite or anything infinite for that matter?
Perhaps we were created by beings in another dimension who do not exist in a spatial form such as we do in this one, could they perhaps be a "God" that christianity or other religions preach about? Could those dimensions perhaps be heaven or hell?
Who fucking knows, and I can guarantee any scientific theory to explain the what existed before the knwon universe was created can be viewed as just as completely illogical as religion.
The confidence athiests have and how they attempt to try to convert every religious person to their way of thinking is just as arrogant as when jehovahs come door to door asking you to convert to their religion, how the fuck can you be so fucking sure in something that NO ONE is EVER going to know until we die?
And perhaps what happens when he die is subject to our beliefs? Perhaps our soul allows us to live through the beliefs we hold dear on this earth?
As far as I'm concerned no one is ever going to have the slightest fucking clue, could there be a god? Maybe, could there not be a god? Maybe not.
Could a flying spaghetti monster have started the universe? Fuck maybe because we have absolutely no evidence to prove ANY of these beliefs, and never fucking will.
I'm free to let anyone believe anything they want as long as they don't shove it in my face, that includes you pompous athiests.
I'm sick of them trying to prove me wrong on my own personal ideas regarded spirituality which I've come to believe from everything I've learned and understand about the universe, or more specifically, what we don't understand about the universe.
/endrant

 

[flat-line]

so he created everything in the dark - then invented light - how good is that !!!

According to who ? The bible ? Who wrote the bible ? King James ?

I find absurd that Christianity just "proves" everything by referencing the bible and most have absolutely no clue who wrote it or why.

And how could plants all grow before the light was turned on ?

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

You can't take the bible so literally...
Many christians I've met believe god created the universe in its entirety, and allowed to grow the way it has.
He didn't create the earth, he created the universe which in turn created the earth.
Evolution was allowed to take place, and is not considered an affront to god.

 

[Ismene]

Blessed are the cheesemakers - obviously it's not meant to be taken literally it refers to any manufacturer of dairy products.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

: God is creating dualities out of his Wholeness

So like, sygzygies?

, and this makes the universe in all of its guises PART of that God, and not a creation outside of it.

I don't think that Christian theology considers the universe separate from God, but I'd have to do some digging for quotes, their position is a bit abstruse (oh, and the Jewish mystics have some really cool stuff to say on the topic of creation vis-a-vis God). I mean, that might be the viewpoint de facto, but not the viewpoint du jure.

Since in my worldview there is only that one God and nothing beyond it, and we are all facets of that same gem, I don't believe in sin on the God level. In every dilemma both options are good, as God is you, the dilemma and any of the outcomes. The only way you can go astray is to choose away from, rather towards, the shortest route to the highest evolution, becoming the Highest Consciousness. But theres only eternal journey, no definitive parking in eternal reward or damnation. By splitting himself up into dualities God made of himself a lowest and highest consciousness, and as our essence is consciousness we go that journey forevermore. No sin, everything is God's Will, no eternal Heaven or Hell, all of us BEING that one God...

The Eastern Orthodox Church considers becoming God-like/coser to divinity (theosis) to be the primary goal of life, and sin is actions that go against this. So sin is a spiritual illness, rather than a legal violation or personal offense against God like the Western sees it.

 

[Incunabula]

So why can't you let them follow their beliefs if it brings them peace without finding a way to call them idiots?
You're a jackass, and the way religion has been misinterpreted thousands of years later has nothing to do with what good things someone can take from the bible or from religion in general.
And that argument you just bashed can apply to the scientific universe as well, what created the matter which existed before the big bang? Or did the universe always exist because humans don't have an understanding of time being infinite or anything infinite for that matter?
Perhaps we were created by beings in another dimension who do not exist in a spatial form such as we do in this one, could they perhaps be a "God" that christianity or other religions preach about? Could those dimensions perhaps be heaven or hell?
Who fucking knows, and I can guarantee any scientific theory to explain the what existed before the knwon universe was created can be viewed as just as completely illogical as religion.
The confidence athiests have and how they attempt to try to convert every religious person to their way of thinking is just as arrogant as when jehovahs come door to door asking you to convert to their religion, how the fuck can you be so fucking sure in something that NO ONE is EVER going to know until we die?
And perhaps what happens when he die is subject to our beliefs? Perhaps our soul allows us to live through the beliefs we hold dear on this earth?
As far as I'm concerned no one is ever going to have the slightest fucking clue, could there be a god? Maybe, could there not be a god? Maybe not.
Could a flying spaghetti monster have started the universe? Fuck maybe because we have absolutely no evidence to prove ANY of these beliefs, and never fucking will.
I'm free to let anyone believe anything they want as long as they don't shove it in my face, that includes you pompous athiests.
I'm sick of them trying to prove me wrong on my own personal ideas regarded spirituality which I've come to believe from everything I've learned and understand about the universe, or more specifically, what we don't understand about the universe.
/endrant

I'm not atheist. I'm rather more agnostic really. But sure, I shouln't have posted in this thread, as the OP is entitled to have his thread in peace from off-topic anti-christian or pro-christian rants.

That said, I hate the abrahamic religions, sure I could leave them in peace, but.....a lot (most?) of the worlds wars (and general terror, violence and death) are because of either islam, christianity or judaism. Really! fuck those religions! fuck that pedophile pope. fuck the jewish settlers in israel....and fuck the muslim terrorists, that's my opinion.

And by the way, scientists don't claim to know what was before the big bang, christians do, that's the difference

did you even watch "the god delusion"? That american jew turned muslim @0:41 is hilarious :D

 

[Help?!?!]

I'm not atheist. I'm rather more agnostic really. But sure, I shouln't have posted in this thread, as the OP is entitled to have his thread in peace from off-topic anti-christian or pro-christian rants.

That said, I hate the abrahamic religions, sure I could leave them in peace, but.....a lot (most?) of the worlds wars (and general terror, violence and death) are because of either islam, christianity or judaism. Really! fuck those religions! fuck that pedophile pope. fuck the jewish settlers in israel....and fuck the muslim terrorists, that's my opinion.

And by the way, scientists don't claim to know what was before the big bang, christians do, that's the difference

did you even watch "the god delusion"? That american jew turned muslim @0:41 is hilarious :D

Have to agree, quite honestly! These religions only breed hate and segregation, which at this point in our evolutionary state should NOT be where were heading. Being religious is almost like the new racism, its totally acceptable to hate someone if the go against your beliefs(clearly not everyone is like this but look at how Christians use God to hate on gays, why in the fuck would an omnipotent being give a fuck about something so utterly useless and simple?!?). I love how you brought up the "But who created God?" portion as all i've ever gotten was blank stares and "Ummmmm.....like he was just there.....". As crazy as it sounds if "God" exists then it must have come to power somehow and i'll figure it out/dethrone it to stop the atrocity! Muhahaha!

 

[flat-line]

Duh - i was being sarcastic.

sarcastic ? has almost all the letters of sata_ ?

I this Satan ?

 

[Asante]

Because they violently and arrogantly stomp around the planet forcing their self righteous fear and guilt trip on everyone else

You mean what you and your like are doing in this thread towards perfectly peaceful openminded christians and christian sympathizers?

what a fucking total crock of self serving, patronizing, infantile shit.

That's why we won't be silenced, and that's why jackasses like you can go fuck yourselves.

Sad man, atacking people because you associate them with other people that you dont like.