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Psilocybin A.k.a 4-PO-DMT

Psilocin is 4-HO-DMT.
Psilocybin is 4-phosphoryl-DMT.

Both are psychedelics present in psilocybin "magic" mushrooms, and are not really the same thing as N,N-DMT. Psilocybin is converted to psilocin in vivo by esterases. I think the general consensus is that the whole class of psilocin esters (including 4-AcO-DMT) are equivalent because of that.

"Magic" mushrooms also contain 4-HO-NMT and 4-HO-T, desmethyl analogs of psilocin, and esters in various amounts. Some also contain the N,N,N-trimethylaminium version of 4-HO-DMT. I suspect these alkaloids are responsible for the different "character" of mushrooms vs pure psilocin.
 
I'm pretty sure he's asking because of the recent results of a John Hopkin's study that pinpointed the dose of 4-PO-DMT with the highest likelihood of causing a peak experience (he posted it in Drugs and the Media). The experiment used pure 4-PO-DMT, which I've never heard of anyone using outside of lab experiments.

I've had experience with 4-HO-DMT and 4-AcO-DMT. 4-HO-DMT is what both 4-AcO-DMT and 4-PO-DMT theoretically breakdown into (the latter two are considered prodrugs). There's some debate as to whether 4-AcO-DMT has effects before breaking down, however, and the same might be true for 4-PO-DMT. 4-AcO-DMT was first made because it's easier to synthesize than 4-PO-DMT, and so these two are likely extremely similar in their effects (4-AcO-DMT is reported by most who have also done 4-HO-DMT to be smoother and much longer in effect).

If you want to replicate the recent John Hopkins study conditions 4-AcO-DMT should be a near perfect substitute. If you want it to be perfect you'll need to adjust the dose of 4-AcO-DMT a little to account for the difference in molecular weight. All you need for that is its formula on Wikipedia and a periodic table.
 
Here's the press release on the study.

Abstract

Watch here for a forthcoming online edition of the full text.

Regarding substituting 4-AcO-DMT for 4-PO-DMT: When you go through 4-AcO-DMT reports you'll not find anywhere near the success rate reported in the John Hopkins study. I don't think this is evidence for 4-AcO-DMT being substantially experientially different than 4-PO-DMT, though. Seventeen out of the 18 "psychologically and physically healthy" participants were "hallucinogen naive" at the start of their 5 session program. Also, their ages ranged from 29 - 62, which is far older than the range the average 4-AcO-DMT user belongs to. These are happy healthy mature adults in a secure environment on their honeymoon with psychedelics. If they're anything like the participants from the 2006 study, they're also are interested in 4-PO-DMT for spiritual reasons. I'm pretty sure 4-AcO-DMT would have had the same results under these optimal conditions.
 
Taking mushrooms with moclobemide converts a psilocybin trip into a DMT trip only with a longer peak and no nausea. Don't ask me how it works but I've taken oral DMT many times and psilocybin plus moclobemide is so close that I can't tell the difference.
 
I'd have to differ with you there sekio. As someone who has taken oral DMT countless times, mushrooms and moclobemide are as close as makes no difference.

BTW, they arn't "similar in duration" - mushrooms and moclo lasts a good 3-4 hours longer.
 
No, I said "as close as makes no difference". Think about that and then get back to me when you've grasped what it means.

btw, you're not going to follow me around the board trying to "get your own back" for the next 12 months are you?
 
The point still stands, they are 2 pharmacologically different substances, with different potencies and effects, no matter how similar the trips may be. 10mg DMT does not substitute for 10mg psilocin. Indeed DMT and psilocin do share many binding sites, but each compound binds differently at the shared sites, i.e. psilocin is very selective for 5HT receptors, and has an order of mangnitude more affinity than DMT. DMT is also broad spectrum enough to be an adrenergic agent.

It's also interesting to note that N,N-dialkyl tryptamines seem to interact with sigma receptors whereas their 4-OH counterparts do not.
 
Yes but remember we're talking psilocybin in the presence of moclobemide. Not psilocybin by itself.

However different they may be pharmacologically isn't really relevant, we're talking about how they act in the human brain and the effects they produce. And having taking oral DMT countless times I felt psilocybin and moclobemide had exactly the same effects. Not "similar", if they were only similar I probably wouldn't mention it. Mushrooms and moclobemide has exactly the same effects as oral DMT.
 
This will probably written off as a "personal vendetta post," but whatever, the contents of it are true...

You should know that the subjective experience of one individual is not any type of reliable evidence - it is certainly not replicable clinical data. I have one personal friend who has taken mushrooms with an MAOI, which altered the effects of mushrooms - but did not turn the trip into a replica of oral DMT - it was stronger, certainly, but dysphoric, and not visual in the same sense as DMT. I am almost 100% sure that there are others who have taken this combo without experiencing with the same certainty you have this replication of oral DMT. Search trip reports on the internet or even within bluelight and I'm sure you'll find some.

You can argue how certain you are, but in the end when there are conflicting reports of the same subjective nature as your own, there is no reason to believe your own are some sort of evidence.

You can say whatever you want, but I'm certainly not lying right now and given the plethora pharmacological reasons to believe oral DMT and mushrooms + MAOI are not exactly the same, even in effect... I think the best anyone can say is that taking mushrooms and an MAOI is very likely to produce a state that is extremely similar, or even the same for some people, as oral DMT.
 
Well, my good friend IamMe90...there is one reason to believe me over a lot of other people who have taken "mushrooms and an maoi" as you so put it. That reason being that I'm vastly experienced with oral DMT and moclobemide. So I can recognise similarities between the two that an ordinary tripper wouldn't. Y'follow?

To be honest, I've never read anyone contrasting oral DMT and moclobemide with mushrooms and moclo apart from me. The reports you get on the internet are usually along the lines of "I found that an MAOI potentiates mushrooms" which is what I'd say if I'd never taken oral DMT and couldn't compare the two.

This "friend" of which you speak. How often has he tried oral DMT? He found mushrooms and moclobemide "dysphoric and not visual"? That is very, very strange. The only explanation is he'd taken something that had affected his tolerance - you need a clean slate for a month or two before you take mushrooms and moclo otherwise it can be disappointing.

All I can suggest to anyone is try oral DMT and moclobemide and then a couple of months later try mushrooms and moclo and then get back to us with your experience. I've taken each of them a vast number of times. Mushrooms by themselves arn't like an oral DMT trip - they're similar but definately nothing like oral DMT. Mushrooms with moclobemide are exactly the same as oral DMT. Why that should be I'm not sure but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be the only one who notices it.

EDIT: btw, feel free to call me a few more nasty names at your leisure.
 
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You might interpret them as the same but I can guarantee that they are not.

The potentiation of oral DMT, which would otherwise be eaten up by MAO-a, by an MAOI-a (in this case the RIMA-a Moclobemide, will not produce the same effect in the brain as an oral trip on a combination of 4-XX-XXT substances that are in magic mushrooms. If this were true than DMT consumed by any ROA would produce the same effects. Changing ROA does not, to my knowledge, change the pharmacological actions of the chemical imbibed.

You may also want to consider that the Moclobemide, at the dose being taken may be active in its own right.

Basically, pharmacology and many people will disagree with you. So much so that I would say your claims, while based upon your own experiences, are certainly not universally true or even shared by many other people.

If what you are claiming is true than the Moclobemide would cause the complete dephosphorylation of 4-PO-DMT to H instead of HO, by some unknown mechanism. I doubt that occurs.
 
shishigami said:
You might interpret them as the same but I can guarantee that they are not.
Click to expand...

And who informed you of this? The mouse that you keep in your top pocket?

How many times have you taken oral DMT and mushrooms and moclobemide? I'm guessing none. Correct?

You may also want to consider that the Moclobemide, at the dose being taken may be active in its own right.

You clearly don't know the first thing about moclobemide.

Basically, pharmacology and many people will disagree with you

By "many people" do you mean the mouse in your top pocket whispering to you again? I havn't read of "many people" taking mushrooms and moclobemide and comparing them to oral DMT and moclobemide. Link me to them if you please. And while you're at it link me to the "pharmacology" of mushrooms and moclobemide because I get the impression you've just dreamed it up while you were typing that post. Am I right shish?

If what you are claiming is true than the Moclobemide would cause the complete dephosphorylation of 4-PO-DMT to H instead of HO, by some unknown mechanism

No, that's just all your brain could come up with to explain it. It could be true for any number of other reasons.
 
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