Proffesional 5-MAPB assisted PTSD therapy, in the wide open.

[emkee_reinvented]

Got an message put on your TV there is a program about MDMA assisted PTSD therapy in my country.

Wow was my first thought, progressive action for a country still in a war on drugs mode.

Turned on my telly and watched, and saw a official medical facility were the PTSD cases were treated by a Psychiatrist. But he didn't use MDMA, like in the US is done. But openly told he used a MDMA like substance, 5-MAPB, as MDMA is illegal to use. (kinda unlogical because the same goes for 5-MAPB)

He showed the bag. And behold, its from the same Vendor I buy my RC's. Stricktly not for human consumption written on the pack. So a qualified dr. that gives patient's a RC, not ment for human consumption. No phase 3 trial's like MDMA. Kinda malpractice although probably effective for the client.

No clue why that company decided to give us a peak behind the curtain. As on their website 5-MAPB is not to be found. But it did raise my interest in the whole picture. Assuming I have PTSD, that treatment will never be available to me (just accept that as a fact). Would it be available, it would be to late cause the blanket ban is allready in the making. And this program could possibly even make it happen faster.

So a D.I.Y. version is not something I cancel out. After years and years of searching for a treatment in the medical field its obvious to me its not gonna come from dr's. My experience is they either do nothing or make it worse.

Anyone got a take on this. 5-MAPB, or 5-MAPB/ 6-APB assisted PTSD therapie to do some remapping. Would it be as effective as MDMA assisted therapy under guidance?



To refine it a bit. Personal experience with MDMA and 6-APB. Year's appart with some bk-MDMA in the middle. But no experience with 5-MAPB.
And is a guide a neccasity? Kinda dislike that idea of an sober sitter, rather do a good preperation and ride it solo.

 

[ageingpartyfiend]

I think people have a massive misunderstanding regarding mdma-assisted trauma therapy

It's not the taking of the drug in and of itself that is therapeutic (although that's not to say that it cannot be on occasion)

The mdma elicits a feeling of emotional safety in the 'client', enabling them to access the traumatic memories without becoming re-traumatised or slipping into a fight-or-flight response...so they can speak it it with the therapist.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

You might be right. But over here till recent there was no such therapy overhere. So unheard of for most.

But let's assume a land's medical system is falling apart. And even promised treatment's like EMDR never get carried out.
You can also conclude a guided session, like outlined by MAPS (75 pages) is not an option. Will never happen this decade.
The MAPS treatment manual is quite clear about the setting, and in a way the therapist is the bottleneck. Finding the right person will be the hardest part.

But the manual does offer tool's.

The new manual from 2021 is luckily shorter/ 52 pages:

EDIT 19-6: this is not the manual to which I link below. But the adherence rating of it!
https://mapscontent.s3.us-west-1.am...herence+Ratings+Manual+Version+6_3AUG2021.pdf

Then manual can be downloaded here:

https://maps.org/mdma/mdma-resources/treatment-manual-mdma-assisted-psychotherapy-for-ptsd/

Just questioning if 5-MAPB and/ or 6-APB, would be inter changeable with MDMA. 5-MAPB also releases Oxytocin.
And 6-APB when dosed right feels quite therapeutic even without going into your trauma's. Just like you said on occasion, but with help of the manual you can go deeper on purpose.

Something that would part of the preperation phase. Wonder if there are people out there allready doing this. For me its been a long time I took an emphatogen. Psychedelic's do help me, but are way less control able. But do their thing on there own.

 

[cosmosmariner]

I’m interested in 5-MAPB, but can’t get it. Many people here report it might be even more conducive to healing than MDMA.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

I’m interested in 5-MAPB, but can’t get it. Many people here report it might be even more conducive to healing than MDMA.

The info on Benzofuran's is not really clear and contradicting sometimes. But 5-MAPB could be more neurotoxic then MDMA? Instead of less. The reports do mention APB's lacking some of the stimulant effect's of MDXX. Which could be nice when the setting is not a party.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27193726/

In 2016

"The administration of 5-MAPB (1.6 × 10(-4) mol/kg B.W.) resulted in the death of two-thirds of the mice. The same dose of MDMA did not cause any deaths. The administration of 5-MAPB (1.6 × 10(-4) mol/kg B.W.) produced a 3.41°C ± 0.28°C rise in rectal temperature after 1 hr, whereas the administration of MDMA (1.6 × 10(-4) mol/kg B.W.) produced an approximate 1.85°C ± 0.26°C rise. These results suggest that benzofurans have 5-HT toxicity similar to MDMA, and 5-MAPB has a higher risk of lethal intoxication than MDMA. Furthermore, 5-APB, the metabolic product of 5-MAPB demethylation, may be involved in the acute 5-HT toxicity and may cause lethal intoxication in mice."

Scary.

But not necessarely lifethreatening when you keep to the harm reduction rules concerning emphatogen's.

EDIT 19-6: Noticed the dosage's used in the experiment were equal, not equivalent. Going from double the strenght on mg. basis. The mice got a double dose of 5-MAPB vs 1 MDMA.

 

[Innerpeace]

Having done all three, MDMA, 5 mapbs, and 6 apb and a lot of each, as these are the only empathogens ever used, unless ecstacy pills were cut, which I think some were...

5 mapb causes the fear response part of the brain, to feel no fear, same as MDMA does, yes it can be therapeutic but you need someone really empathetic or someone trained..doing this alone , not knowing what to do , waiting for an answer, more than likely wont find it. Same thing going out with friends. Be alone with someone that's empathetic and wants to help you work through those memories and or a trained pstd MDMA therapist.

Btw some of these therapist took advantage and has sex with clients, that was brought up and a reason why MDMA didn't fly recently ...

As far as recreational..Mdma has more dopamine and ne release than 5 mapbs , at least I think so, which feels good. 5 mapb still has some dopamine and ne release. Serotonin release from 5 mapb is 1.5-2 xs as potent mg for mg , I say 2 xs bc 107 mgs gave me serotonin syndrome. 75 mgs is tops dose period.

MDMA have done 250-350 mgs in a night, and was in and out of consciousness major eyes rolling and coming back. Some ppl say they've done 500-1000 mgs but Ime 300 mgs was too much and had severe depressive comedown two days afterwards.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Having done all three, MDMA, 5 mapbs, and 6 apb and a lot of each, as these are the only empathogens ever used, unless ecstacy pills were cut, which I think some were...

5 mapb causes the fear response part of the brain, to feel no fear, same as MDMA does, yes it can be therapeutic but you need someone really empathetic or someone trained..doing this alone , not knowing what to do , waiting for an answer, more than likely wont find it. Same thing going out with friends. Be alone with someone that's empathetic and wants to help you work through those memories and or a trained pstd MDMA therapist.

Btw some of these therapist took advantage and has sex with clients, that was brought up and a reason why MDMA didn't fly recently ...

As far as recreational..Mdma has more dopamine and ne release than 5 mapbs , at least I think so, which feels good. 5 mapb still has some dopamine and ne release. Serotonin release from 5 mapb is 1.5-2 xs as potent mg for mg , I say 2 xs bc 107 mgs gave me serotonin syndrome. 75 mgs is tops dose period.

MDMA have done 250-350 mgs in a night, and was in and out of consciousness major eyes rolling and coming back. Some ppl say they've done 500-1000 mgs but Ime 300 mgs was too much and had severe depressive comedown two days afterwards.

Thank's for your thorough answer. So a sitter is a necessity. Someone who has read the manual, with who you feel at ease and help's you work through the trauma's you allready written up in the preparation phase. A professional therapist is not an option, healthcare is NL. is damaged beyond repair. In my files there are many, many mention's of treatment's from Psycho-Therapy to EMDR. Which were offered to me and thankfully accepted. Sadly none was ever carried out. Don't ask me why, its just that way.

Which in a way is logical, keeping someone making promisses that are not kept. Enable's them to make money. Without actually doing something, a cured client means no more money right.

Assuming some of the report's are right, and my experience's with 6-APB as reference. The APB's seem less distracting then MDMA, which is a bit of a rollercoaster ride. Memory ime is more effected on it to. Probably due to the more stimulating nature and the wavyness of the experience.

6-APB was more constant, and less distracting, except when I took a too large of a dose (100 mg). My first experience with a 'BenzoFury' pellet.
It floored me for a long time, but at a lesser dose its ok. If 5-MAPB follow's the same line, it could be the better emphatogen of the 2 (MDMA and 5-MAPB). Keeping neuro/ cardio-toxicity, the fact the Benzo-Furan's have not passed any phase trial's and are hardly researched AFAIK out of the equation.

Btw. innerpeace, you have no experience with bk-MDMA/ Methylone? Which imo also would be a good candidate, for me better then MDMA. As its way more relaxing, no comedown of any sort. Only difference that short duration, but as its been banned long ago not an option anymore.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

As far as recreational..Mdma has more dopamine and ne release than 5 mapbs , at least I think so, which feels good. 5 mapb still has some dopamine and ne release. Serotonin release from 5 mapb is 1.5-2 xs as potent mg for mg , I say 2 xs bc 107 mgs gave me serotonin syndrome. 75 mgs is tops dose period.

MDMA have done 250-350 mgs in a night, and was in and out of consciousness major eyes rolling and coming back. Some ppl say they've done 500-1000 mgs but Ime 300 mgs was too much and had severe depressive comedown two days afterwards.

From the source's that were about dosage it seem's about 2x as strong as MDMA. In the link to the NCBI research they were dosed equally not equivalent. Which could explain the death mice.

Att MDMA was availablet o me, pre internet. My usage was not totally wreckless, well it was but compared to some of my friend's lesser, but defenitely weekend warrior style. So a dosage of 900 mg spread over 2 day's every other weekend, was at a some point normal.
Risky bussines, but that is not the aim now. No recreation, just one dose.

Before hand not only the sitter but I myself will have to dig in the manual. And do the preperation, hypothetically. As I have no clue were to get that sitter.

Which obviously is the bottleneck. That guy on TV could be such a person, my impression based on that short fragment. But living in a regio where mental health care is either outdated/ low quality or simply non excistant. And you are not allowed, for certain reason's without approval of someone more important then your dr. to get treated elsewere.

Would I do it?
If so, I would some intergrate some thing's I picked up in the preperation and final phase.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Odd. Sounds a bit sketchy. My experience with 6-APB was neutral, almost negative. I didn't sense any therapeutic value in it. I've never tried 5-MAPB, though.

 

[gordonliddy]

Would it be available, it would be to late cause the blanket ban is allready in the making. And this program could possibly even make it happen faster.

Yes, indiscreet people ruin everything.

If one ever discovers something truly cool, maybe one shouldn't tell anyone about it.

 

[gordonliddy]

So a D.I.Y. version is not something I cancel out. After years and years of searching for a treatment in the medical field its obvious to me its not gonna come from dr's. My experience is they either do nothing or make it worse.

Anyone got a take on this. 5-MAPB, or 5-MAPB/ 6-APB assisted PTSD therapie to do some remapping. Would it be as effective as MDMA assisted therapy under guidance?

To refine it a bit. Personal experience with MDMA and 6-APB. Year's appart with some bk-MDMA in the middle. But no experience with 5-MAPB.
And is a guide a neccasity? Kinda dislike that idea of an sober sitter, rather do a good preperation and ride it solo.

You can do self-therapy with MDMA. It doesn't take a professional to do this. Also, any reasonably smart person can provide MDMA therapy for you. I've provided MDMA therapy and I'm not a doctor.

I'm not sure how that would transfer to 5-MAPB.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

You can do self-therapy with MDMA. It doesn't take a professional to do this. Also, any reasonably smart person can provide MDMA therapy for you. I've provided MDMA therapy and I'm not a doctor.

I'm not sure how that would transfer to 5-MAPB.

Well that Psychiater uses it on people that been through every other option. And claim's it work's just as good as MDMA. That he uses a unregistered substance with little research on it and certainly no approval. Is in the long term not really productive or professional. It could get a discussion about using MDMA assisted therapy going, but that's about it.

Not something you expect from a regular Psychiater from a established clinic for PTSD treatment.

What is good to know is that a D.I.Y. procedure is an option. It will take some work, but its definetly worth to try. Might I do it, still considering.

And as far as MDMA vs 5-MAPB. Only the last one is available to me, bk-MDMA would also have been a good option, but is illegal. 5-MAPB will follow next probably or a blanket ban.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Just watched the last 1/3-rd of a scientificic/ neuroligic based podcast about "The most healthy way to go through grief". Anyone interested I'll post it.

And now doubting that PTSD is my problem, the cast is about Prolonged Human Grieve and the science and neurologie behind it. Also offer's tools and show's more resemblance to what I experience then PTSD. In a way a good thing as all this circling only made me dizzy. Maybe I do have or had PTSD, but atm grieve about what's gone is what I feel. Though an Emphatogen could also be helpfull remapping and accepting that changed part.

The MAPS manual is next.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

One is obvious after reading the manual, besides the hussle to establish a good relation between participant and the 2 therapist's. Its also very much preparing a person that has never done a drug besides Alcohol on what is kinda to be expected. Well most of us don't really fall in that category, speaking for myself offcourse.

Part 3 is of more importance imo that about aiming the experience toward's a certain direction. Although they leave very much up to the individual. And everything is talked about on forhand. So that during everything that could possible be roadblock is taken away as much as possible. So aim, when and if how. Possible roadblock's, in a D.I.Y. setting, your own basickly.

But the guide offers a real soft handed approach, well that's something very MDMA-ish most user's will recognize.

Lets hope eventually the whole world will benefit from these kinda research. And the resuls after practising it.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Odd. Sounds a bit sketchy. My experience with 6-APB was neutral, almost negative. I didn't sense any therapeutic value in it. I've never tried 5-MAPB, though.

At what dosage? The first experience with that gifted ´Benzo-Fury´, containing 100 mg was also sketcty. Imo an way to high dose for me, kinda reckless. But at that dose it just floored me and my main concern's where nowhere therapeutic.

It were moan's, lying on the ground CD on repeat. Thought's no deeper then 'do i have to pee/ have thirst/ change or stop the music ? .... moaning.
Still laying flat concluding that when done in sequence: piss, get CD and then some fluid's. Mean's the faster I can lay down again'.

The next day felt slightly therapeutic during the afterglow. A lower dosage would have saved me a lot of moan's, and be more handleable.
But when reading experiences. 5-MAPB seems way better as therapeutic tool, even compared to MDMA. Due to coming-up instead of kicking in, less stimulating, more consistent and a longer duration accompanied by a slower drop off. A therapeutic dose of the HCL would be about 40/ 60 mg, according to PsychonautWiki a light dose. For best result's this is recommended. My tolerance is baseline anyway. But will do a allergy and 20/ 25 dose to test the water's. Think I am gonna give it a try at least.

Seem's for me finally the puzzle is in its finishing phase. Had 3 seizures so Epilepsy was considered meaning no MDMA or other seizure treshhold lowering thing's. But it was finally concluded the seizure's were the result of year's of stress, 2 1/2 year insomnia and then allready down low: drinking. Then losing my ADHD script (my dr. why ?) and as result drinking even more. But that's the past. In which I thought was stuck for life (with Epilepsy and no proper mental health care). Now there is hope, a chance to move further.

Btw. the PTSD which was never treated or diagnozed. In the beginning the dream's about it, lucid nightmares especially when on Levitiracetam. Besides destroying my sleep quality, they did seem to be a auto repair system for traumatic event's. They got more mellow as time past and as I could direct them, which might have sped things up.
Finally had my first happy dream in year's. In detox wd-ing Ethanol, under influence of lots of Diazepam. Atm my mind seem to have incorperated the trauma by itself. My head felt much more serene after.

 

[Jabberwocky]

At what dosage?

I don't recall to be honest, it was probably 12 years ago. It was not a high dose. I believe it was around 60-80mg.

I can't remember much at all from the experience, except being rather disappointed. It was very strong, but I don't remember an sensory or thought enhancement at all. Maybe that's why I don't remember the experience, it was unremarkable. I remember needing to lay down for most of it. That's about it. I think the body load was too intense for me.

It's a really fuzzy memory, I could be misremembering.

I know it was good product, though. I bought MXE and a few other things from the same vendor.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

I don't recall to be honest, it was probably 12 years ago. It was not a high dose. I believe it was around 60-80mg.

I can't remember much at all from the experience, except being rather disappointed. It was very strong, but I don't remember an sensory or thought enhancement at all. Maybe that's why I don't remember the experience, it was unremarkable. I remember needing to lay down for most of it. That's about it. I think the body load was too intense for me.

It's a really fuzzy memory, I could be misremembering.

I know it was good product, though. I bought MXE and a few other things from the same vendor.

Bout the same. Though instead of dissapointed i was overwhelmed and taken by surprise as 6-Amino-Propyl-BenzoFuran just did't sound as MDMA like substance at all. Wrong it felt as a waterfall of Serotonin with a little Dopamin and maybe Nor-Adrenaline, compared to MDAI which is solely serotenergic. And defininetely the dose was to high.

But its also more like MDA then MDMA. Which explains why I experienced even more short term memory problem's (within a thought, if you know what i mean) and heavy laylock. On MDA its ridiculous stopping mid sentence due to memory problems, on MDMA they start after you allready consumed more then advisable. But both are more energizing, less couchlock.

Yet it was very tactile at the same time so soft fabric's were essential. Which is more MDMA like. To bad it was alone, but it didn't bother. But no idea how social it is.

5-MAPB is supposed to be more like MDMA with added couchlock, 6-APB is probably not a really good alternative.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Wow what a weird stuff after an alergy test I ingested a treshhold dose of mg 25, 1/ 2 a dose used in the therapy. In the evening/ night.

Well its clear to methe couchlock effect present with MDMA and Methylone, that alway's ime had interruption's of energy bursts.
The lay-lock of 6-APB. 5-MAPB won by a long shot. After some initial come up sign's, it wans't long before i was on a matrass under a blanky.
And then awoke like that early the next morning.
Something even on MDAI did't happen. But this was at a treshold dose, not a light/ normal one, so not comparable. But it was odd, the consious part was warm and cosy with no sign's of any rush or push. And the sleep came so unoticed I can't time or recal it.

Maybe the reason the session's in the Manual are done at noon (to prevent the participant falling asleep)?
But is this normal or my age at play. Sleeping on dextro-Amphetamine idem no problem. So be it Serotonin or Dopamin sleep is uneffected, Gimme a well balanced triple releaser and no way I'll sleep, even the selective seronergic MDAI held me awake while paralyzing me.

Probably was tired anyway, set & setting. But this was a trial. Nice stuff, first impression.

Btw at waking my mood was not very good (never is), as the sleeping felt not really restfull. Like when waking tired, not hangover style. Just like after a unrestful natural sleep.