probiotic scam ?

[TurelGrigori]

My tentative conclusion is that there aren't any good tests for deciding if your upper or middlish GI is in good shape regarding flora and fauna, at least not clinically available. In a research setting they might have all kinds of experimental means. Stool samples kind of give you some idea about the state of things at the end of the colon and in the rectum. Scope type procedures are about tissue and system functioning rather than flora or fauna. There is a radio labeled urea breath test to investigate if h.pylori is present in the upper GI, but there are questions about if that test is worth it given its high cost and possibility of inaccurate results.
http://www.klaire.com/images/StoolCultures.pdf

When fecal material is assiduously collected, rapidly processed, and
cultured with careful anaerobic technique, the results primarily reflect
cultivable microbes predominating in the descending colon and
rectum. Stool cultures do not reflect the microflora of the small
intestine and cecum. Fecal cultures that report semiquantitative
numbers of Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium species are poor guides
to the need for and possible benefits of probiotics. Stool cultures
cannot accurately assess probiotic bowel colonization.

 

[asecin]

ok so that basically concludes it. until we have reliable way of testing before and after affect of probiotics, only morons are wasting their money for such supplements or food sources. thank you very much.

 

[TurelGrigori]

ok so that basically concludes it. until we have reliable way of testing before and after affect of probiotics, only morons are wasting their money for such supplements or food sources. thank you very much.

Yogurt or kiefer is not really expensive. It is likely replaces something else that would be in your food budget. If one has a disorder like irritable bowel syndrome or ulcerative colitis you are going to probably try somethings that aren't 100% proven. There are fairly few conditions for which diagnoses are clear and for which every treatment can be quantifiable certain to have a beneficial effect.

Psoriasis patients are told to use coal tar -a percentage get relief, a percentage get worse, and a percentage neither get better or worse. Same for steroids, same for phototherapy, ketocanazole shampoo, zinc pytherione, on and on. Most chronic health conditions are not like strep throat where there is a solid diagnosis, a clear cause, and a reliable treatment that will take care of the problem reliably for more than 98% of cases. There is a hierarchy usually of how likely a particular remedy will work for a demographic group but no telling for individuals usually.

Secondly, most data is about treating diseases- a lot of HL participants are about achieving optimal health and preventing disease---an are that there is far less solid data about. Also healthy living is a pastime like a hobby as much as anything else, its not something where anyone has to justify their personal spending to asecin's criteria for efficacy and economic sensibility. The evidence for probiotics is marginal. Many much more expensive treatments, with much higher risks, have marginal evidence as well. When your sick you do what you can and inexpensive treatments with low risk of deleterious effects seem potentially to be very smart things to give a trial.

 

[RhythmSpring]

^ ^ Well said. I don't think any "conclusions" can be drawn at this point.

 

[modern buddha]

I'm gonna close this for now, as it seems OP has an answer he can contend with.

 

[asecin]

just remembered to ask one last thing
does regular consumption of alcohol alters, maybe even perm kills beneficial bacteria in the guts ?

 

[TurelGrigori]

^Alcohol definitely can alter the composition of intestinal fauna and flaura by killing some. The intestines are like an ecosystem, they have a great deal of fluctuation even in the course of a day. Some foods are likely inhibitors or eliminators of some gut constituents as well, garlic often being mentioned. I do suspect some people have internal ecosystems that withstand alcohol, antibiotics, poor diet, and other stressors much better than others.

Gut bacteria are the major creators of vitamin K and biotin for a lot of people. The gut likely effects a lot of health factors that aren't just localized in the digestive system.

 

[Busty St Clare]

i was reading how stomach acid does not allow at least 90% of bacterias to not pass through (obviously some can if you get sick from spoiled food) but i highly doubt beneficial bacteria from probiotics can actually survive the acidic environment and get through the colon. so i wonder, isnt all this probiotic marketing a scam ?
its already been confirmed that once you took antibiotics in your life, you will never benefit from probiotics again. it kills them permanently. now i wonder if i can establish if probiotics work at all in normal conditions and stomach acid is ever a good place to end.
tnx for any help on this !

Interesting theory, your only problem is when we are born we are all in fact sterile, meaning we are devoid of any bacteria. We have to acquire all our "natural" bacterial, be it in our gut, mouth or surface of our skin from the surrounding environment. A common pathway is from sharing cutlery with our parents. If bacteria cannot pass the acidic environment to reach our colon, how does it get there initially?

More civilised societies also add yoghurt to their curries.

 

[delta_9]

It's not even possible to permanently destroy one's intestinal flora(as in destroy every single organism), as far as I know. This is a symbiosis we simply can't do without.

Probiotics are indeed a waste of money, however. I'm not sure I would automatically use the word "scam"(I mean, they do put bacteria in those pills, it's not like it's a sugar pill or anything), but there is simply no way taking probiotics will affect your intestinal flora in any significant way whatsoever. The average person has some 500 different species in them at a given time, so taking 1 or 2 species in a pill is just silly.

Prebiotics on the other hand, are certainy worth investigating.

only morons are wasting their money for such supplements or food sources. thank you very much.

I wouldn't say that. If you're at the supermarket and they sell yoghurt with and without active cultures, why would you buy the ones without?(assuming they cost the same of course)

 

[B1tO'RoughJack]

thats not what he means at all. he said the yogurt sold on the market being pasteurized and i asked if you make your own yogurt. also, its spelled yogurt in civilized places, dont know which end of the world you live in.

Smarmy fucker - you got your language from us, and it's spelt YOGHURT.

Britain is a helluva lot more civilized than USA...relatively.

I have nothing to add here apart from that - what I was going to say has been said.

 

[Scott Walker]

Wow. I'm really surprised so many people are this misinformed about probiotics. For those really interested, there's a wonderful book called The Probiotic Revolution by Gary B. Huffnagle, Ph.D. It details (in it's 412 pages, exactly why probiotics are so important for a healthy immune system, and why we aren't getting the quantity of high level probiotics that we our parents and grandparents did.

As far as how to get probiotics into your gut. Purchace enteric coated Probiotics. Here's an excellent explanation of how an enteric coating works, taken from Wikipedia.

An enteric coating is a barrier applied to oral medication that controls the location in the digestive system where it is absorbed. Enteric refers to the small intestine, therefore enteric coatings prevent release of medication before it reaches the small intestine[1].

Most enteric coatings work by presenting a surface that is stable at the highly acidic pH found in the stomach, but breaks down rapidly at a less acidic (relatively more basic) pH. For example, they will not dissolve in the acidic juices of the stomach (pH ~3), but they will in the alkaline (pH 7-9) environment present in the small intestine. Materials used for enteric coatings include fatty acids, waxes, shellac, plastics, and plant fibers.

I hope this puts to rest the Probiotic Scam conspiracy theory.