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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: tryptakid | Foreigner

Pride in your country?

^^^ True that, but actions must start with words. For somebody to change something that is wrong with the world, they must identify the problem first. You seem to think that nobody on this BBS is doing anything political outside of BL which is simply untrue. Will our discussing politics here directly change the world? probably not. Is that question at all relivent to the purpose of this discussion board? nope.
It's easy to make ad-hominum attacks when you can not defend the integrety of the ideas you support.
Peace
_LoP
 
Fourth off I dont mean to flame you but you are exactly what i mean so proud of what we have done for the world. Can you tell me what we have done that WASNT done ONLY in our interest alone?
I'm a bit confused. Whose interests should the US Govt be concerned with? Paraguay's? Canada's? Maybe the US Govt should set policy with an eye to how it benefits India? No, wait, even better...instead of shipping surplus grain to Ethiopia so as to to not cause a drop in our grain prices like you said, why don't we send grain that's actually meant to be eaten by our population! That way prices will be driven up, and it will be more expensive for American citizens to eat as a result of US Govt. policy.
The United States government exists primarily to protect and advance the interests of the United States, and will continue to do so unapologetically. Read the last sentance again please, because no matter how many many times I say that on this board, people are always surprised and indignant when the US does something to further it's own agenda at the expense of another nation(s). History has shown however, that when it coincides with, or does not conflict with the US agenda, the nation is capable of extreme generosity. It is the single largest (by a *huge* margin) contributor to NGE's (Non-Governmental Entities..ie..Red Cross, Amnesty, etc..) and relief agencies in the world, and when there is a disaster anywhere, the US is the first foreign nation on the scene, with people, supplies, and money. Again, much of this also serves US interests, but if I give charity to get a tax deduction, is that money worth any less?
Additionally, the US government's policies are supported by most of the people, most of the time. That is exactly how a Republic should work. We here may not think that drug offenses should not be felonies punishable by prison, but the majority does, and polls show that they don't support legalization. Whether the people support the govt.'s positon, or the govt. supports the people's position is almost immaterial, either way there is broad support for most US policies, which ensures that while the country may make adjustments, it's not changing course in the forseeable future.
And why should it? You think it's an accident that the US is the most powerful nation on earth? You think it's just by chance that it's citizens have access to the largest supply of good & services on earth, and that immigrants from all over the world scrape and claw and scratch to get to America? If you were to score: social, economic, & political freedom, opportunity, fairness & equality (racial & economic), the US would definately not place highest in all individually, but average them, and the US would score higher than any nation/society/government ever seen on the face of this planet.
By the way...I don't believe there is such thing as America, or an American. The US has been, and continues to be a grand experiment in what can be achieved when you bring together people from different cultures all over the world, and allow them to use their talents. You're gonna get some friction, but you're gonna get some cool shit too. If you wanna say there's injustice, and it's not even close to perfect, fine...you're 100% right. Go out and work for social progress, just don't expect Nirvana overnight.
 
Ok where to begin The Marshall plan now I agree that is a good one but also you are talking about a policy which occured 60 years ago. If you had read all my posts I made references to how we revell in pride in what we once WERE. At the end of WW 2 we were a different nation than we are now. I would concider that era as what we used to be. However the Marshall Plan was consistant with americas interests then. Our policy was Isolationism. I have never once said America never does the right thing or even good things. We have and we Do but in our modern era everything I have seen has always had a hidden agenda and usually not a good one. As to the post about Who should we look out for? Well if I was to agree and say Us then the problem I would have is Why then do we do ANYTHING for anyone else? My real problem is we make promises and take action to serve only ourselves and break those promises at the first inconvenience. Take Viet Nam,Bosnia,Somalia,Ethiopia,Iraq,Iran,kuwait or for that matter almost any smaller nation on earth which is now hostile to US and ask WHY? More than our interference the main problem is they all know we will make promises and not keep them. It really started with Viet Nam, we should not have lost that war because it told the world we will abandon you at our discretion and it hasnt changed since. I have never questioned the love and compassion of americans only the governments actions or lack thereof and it motivations.
 
Exx_head
Did you read my earier post as to what I think should be done as far as our electorial system? If we had such an electronic system in place it would be a great improvement. The system as it stands is pretty hopeless. Why? When was the last independant party president elected? For that matter even came close to being elected? My support of the Libertarian Party has some to do with my personal desires Yes but my personal desires are more in tune with what this nation was founded on and that is the notion of personal freedom. What good is it to tell the world how free and great America is when its quite clear you are lying? How many Brits have I seen on these very boards scoff at american intolerance and injustice? Many! You cant fix the world until you fix your own nation first. As for foreign policy thats simple When you choose to offer aid to one nation in need Do so without your national interests preventing you from doing what is morally right or dont begin to do it at all! Secondly Finish what you begin and do what you say. Remember if you say you will save one man from an enemy and in the process you lose 100,000 How many millions do you save down the road as in doing so you have shown the world you will do what you say. Why do you think we arent trusted by anyone to do what we say we will? As for my earlier comment about grain to ethiopia my point really was that after we did that in 86 and 87 another great famine struck there again in the early 90s and we ignored it that time. What does that prove? Well it convinced me that if we had not had such a great extra stockpile in 86 then the US government would not have got the media so stirred up as to move the spirit of love and compassion that really is the soul of the american people to take action. Might I be correct?
 
I don't have the Right to Be Free Cause I'm American, I have the right to be free Cause I'm ALive.
Getting back to the original topic...
I agree with Josh that nationalism is one of the worst things that has happened to our world and all the people livin in it. Remember all countries are just arbirtrary(sp) and have no real meaning. Except for maybe religion the worst crimes agains humanity have been carried out in the name of nationalism, WWI WWII, just too glaring examples that come to mind.
It doesn't matter how great your country is or how bad, but believin that just because you live in a certaint place you are better or deserve more freedoms is arrogant and dangerous.
Like Josh said, the worlds problems will never be solved by supporting a government, especial since most govs act not in the peoples interst but only for those in power or have money, but by communication amoung people. ANd an undersatnding that every body no matter where there from has the same basic rights to Work Love PLay and live freely, as long as they dont hinder anothers right to do the same.
 
/\/\
I agree all people have the right to be free! What happens when someone takes over your property/government/town/family/whatever the fuck you wanna call it and takes that freedom away? Do you just sit around and let it take place? Not if you really care about that freedom. Wait, what are you going to do, violence isn't right, so let's vote them out. Oh wait, you can't because the suck-ass dictator has armed patrols in the street. Oh well. This is unfortunately why force has been necessary in the past.
Stop confusing pride in History/Victory/Family/values/etc with nasty nationalism. These are NOT THE SAME THING. I am proud of my late father's service in the Marine Corps. Not because I think the Marines have always done exactly the right thing, but because I think the values instilled in the Marines of the US are great things. Does this make me ignorant to all the people killed by Marines in the world? No. Do I take pride in them ONLY because they are of the US? No. Why should we be ashamed of our nation because bad things have happened and people who are leaders have made mistakes. Oh wait, PEOPLE made mistakes? How is that possible?
Keep giving examples like the Waco cluster-fuck which has about 10 different angles to the story. This doesn't support an anti-patriotism argument. No where have I ever seen those two implied equivalent.
If we have one innocent person in jail does that mean that our judicial system is a total piece of crap? I just don't see it in the black and white terms I keep being told here I have to accept.
Doubleroller: I gave you an example of when the US didn't just do something in its own interest and now you tell me that that was too long ago to satisfy your argument. Too bad. It isn't my job to teach folks history.
Learning to separate your ideas in to paragraphs makes them more coherent and gives you credibility too.
If you want people to be convinced by your arguments, at least learn to stick with a point and not keep changing your position when someone negates one of your arguments. I'm no attorney, nor am I a political expert or a debating master, but I don't form my opinions based on a few events or sides of a story.
I love the US and there is no where else I'd rather be. I don't think that makes me guilty of anything other than learning to take the good and the bad and make an informed decision about how things outta be. If you think differently, fine. You are allowed to do that and try to enact change. But don't assume everyone else is complacent or ignorant, or nationalistically naive because they don't have that same passion.
[ 18 May 2002: Message edited by: Exx_head ]
 
Why are americans more important than the rest of the world, by promoting American Pride, you are saying Americans are better than the rest of the world, that you are special because of where you live. THat is arrogant and simply not true. Why sepperate your self from the rest of the world based on something so arbitrary as where you live. Don't look to the diferances see the fact that every body has the same basic needs and deserves the same basic freedoms.
 
Currently sadly :( I'm ashamed to be an Australian.The last federal election(near the end of last year) was won based on racial hatred and fear.I also hate this current Federal government,especially the Prime Minister(based on the election and there general mean policies).I currently am so ashamed of my country I chose to ignore "Australia Day" this year.
People have said if I hate it so much I should leave.But why should I leave where I was born when I want for it to improve.
Also,currently where could I go?
The world is going to shit.I couldn't go to America because this is the country who's answer to "September 11" is to kill innocent people from the country that some people did them wrong.Real smart.It's NOT a war on terrorism.It's really a war for REVENGE & for America to control the world.
If America really wanted to prevent future terrorist attacks in their counntry they should NOT kill innocent people of other countries(JUST the people behind "September 11" if that) and bring about policies when dealing with poorer countries that will help make these countries better,happier and so we can have WORLD PEACE.
Remember this is NOT just an attack on America("I also feel my country has a lot to answer for,we are helping America with this so called "WAR ON TERRORISM"),but this is an example on how the world could be a better place.It's ok to be proud of your country but NOT at the expense of other countries.Personally we should be more proud to be of the human race more than anything.I just hope the world can get to this stage to feel this way.Because currently I feel ashamed to be part of the human race. :( :( :(
 
Currently sadly :( I'm ashamed to be an Australian.The last federal election(near the end of last year) was won based on racial hatred and fear.I also hate this current Federal government,especially the Prime Minister(based on the election and there general mean policies).I currently am so ashamed of my country I chose to ignore "Australia Day" this year.
People have said if I hate it so much I should leave.But why should I leave where I was born when I want for it to improve.
Also,currently where could I go?
The world is going to shit.I couldn't go to America because this is the country who's answer to "September 11" is to kill innocent people from the country that some people did them wrong.Real smart.It's NOT a war on terrorism.It's really a war for REVENGE & for America to control the world.
If America really wanted to prevent future terrorist attacks in their counntry they should NOT kill innocent people of other countries(JUST the people behind "September 11" if that) and bring about policies when dealing with poorer countries that will help make these countries better,happier and so we can have WORLD PEACE.
Remember this is NOT just an attack on America("I also feel my country has a lot to answer for,we are helping America with this so called "WAR ON TERRORISM"),but this is an example on how the world could be a better place.It's ok to be proud of your country but NOT at the expense of other countries.Personally we should be more proud to be of the human race more than anything.I just hope the world can get to this stage to feel this way.Because currently I feel ashamed to be part of the human race. :( :( :(
 
Exx_head
It sounds to me like we actually agree on many issues here. I have not changed my position on any issue however. I have added details to show exactly what i meant on a given issue. My grandfather served in the Marines too.I am very proud of that and of those who have served in our armed forces particularly in our distant past, but not at the expense of today. America under its former era of isolationism through its involvement in WW 2 and even into its involvement in Viet Nam was honorable and given the situation it was in its best interest as was the Marshall Plan so my point still stands.The Marshall plan was in our interest because it wasnt against our interests, but you are right, it wasnt SOLELY self serving. We had no desire for a Pax Americanus, only a heart felt desire to maintain world stability and avoid war.Our recent actions/inactions are no longer so concerned.They are 100% self serving without concern for the future stability of either the rest of the world or our domestic tranquility at home. This is the difference between those who continue to bask in our former glory AND who do so at the expense of the current and recent activities domestically and our international relations. The american people in thier dissent stopped Viet Nam by the actions of the peace movement. Am I Partially Correct? If the people who today are flag waving since Sept 11 acted with as much vigor as those who protested Nam, Do You think our Government would listen? Most likely. This is my rant but instead people tend to bury themselves in false pride and attack people like myself who choose to highlight the negative in order to bring to light our own shortcomings and to make them realize the government listens to us only when we cry out loud enough. Case in point Waco Timothy Mcveigh blew up a federal building and as a result the waco bumfuck was front page news again and still is an active topic. I think his actions were too drastic and involved too much colaterial damage but it did work. The senate did open thier eyes and they wouldnt have if he hadnt done what he did. NEGATIVE ACTION gets a REACTION. To the rest of the waco bumfuck you are also correct there are many sides to the issue to anyone who hasnt looked too deep. I have and my conclusions are based on many hours of study including watching many hours of hearings. The video is damning. The only real issue I have mentioned on here is the Louis Fhree statement. His words are clear and contain no ambiguity, nor are they taken out of context. He did himself say he gassed those kids to get the parents to respond to his demands now nobody can dare to say that ANYONE has the right to gas children under any circumstances. I doubt there is one citizen on planet earth who could honestly say that what he did wasnt child abuse at the very least. Would you? I love to talk about that one point any place I can because it is irrelavant to every other issue of the whole fucked up mess. Here is a single individual who could be tried in court for his recorded action and confession. Not by circumstancial or disputed hearsay evidence. Yes once again I have made multiple points in one statement sorry but i tend to be lengthy and as I am dealing with intelligent people You can keep up.
 
By the way I love you guys. you have either attacked or defended what I have said without childish personal attacks. Thanks that is too cool!
 
DoubleRoller...
I definately think you bring up a valid point as it pertains to the Waco incident. The entire situation was ugly: The Davidians were indeed storing illegal weapons in large quantities, and ideally the ATF would have served the warrant peacefully and that would be that. But the Davidians hunkered down, the government escalated, and in the end alot of people died that shouldn't have. What Freeh & Reno did was indeed criminal, as were the events at Ruby Ridge, where the agents were finally prosecuted, but given a slap on the wrist. Unfortunately, there will never be a huge public outcry about either of these events, and it's not because of the government, or any media manipulation. It's because the injured parties were 1) a "whacko" cult 2)seperatist survivalist "looney" types. The general public already views both groups with suspicion and the sentiment seems to be "If they weren't doing anything wrong in the first place, it never woulda happened". To be fair, that sentimenet is not incorrect, but it still doesn't excuse the government's actions.
I am very proud of that and of those who have served in our armed forces particularly in our distant past, but not at the expense of today. America under its former era of isolationism through its involvement in WW 2 and even into its involvement in Viet Nam was honorable ....Our recent actions/inactions are no longer so concerned.They are 100% self serving without concern for the future
This however, I disagree with. I think it's quite easy to romantasize the distant past, because it's human nature to remember positive things more than negative. The Marshall plan was quite self serving on two fronts: 1) The US needed to make sure that Western Europe was economically sound because they owed the US a shitload of money, in loans, in lend-lease, and in reperations. The only way they were going to pay it back, is if they were functioning nations again. 2)A ravaged nation with a poor and hungry populace is a perfect breeding ground for a Communist Revolution. There were thousands of Soviet agitators all over Western Europe, and the US could not allow a strong Communist movement to take hold in any Western European nation.
Just because something is self serving however, doesn't mean it can't also do some good for the people affected by it.
By the way...looking a bit further back in US history, I don't think you'll find any nobler endeavours. A history of broken promises and suffering with the Native Americans, manipulating other countries in the Western Hemisphere so to lessen European influence and increase our own, using Panamanian labor and land to build a canal that we would control, etc... I actually think that as a nation, and a species, we become *less* self serving and more globally aware as time goes on. Just because we didn't have the means to be globally exploitaitive 100 years ago, doesn't mean we didn't want to ;)
 
Dankhammer: I disagree with your assertion that pride=superiority. If I'm proud of how I do on a test, does that mean I think I'm superior to everyone else. I have NEVER thought the US was a better country than every other one, but that doesn't mean I'm not proud of it. I don't see why they have to be mutually exclusive.
Doubleroller: I love everyone here too. I love the fact that I can come here and get into stimulating debate with people around the globe. I hope I don't come accross as an arrogant know-it-all. I absolutely am not. Anyone who knows me will tell you I am very open minded.
I'm an engineer by trade, and I have to use evidence, weigh the options, and make a decision. Perhaps I oversimplify things into choices when they really aren't. My apologies if I offend anyone.
To summarize my viewpoint for this entire forum:
I Think the US is Great Nation and people should be proud of its history.
I think there are lots of other Great Nations and Peoples who should be proud of their history and culture.
I think that the world is a diverse global marketplace now, and that all must be accepted and appreciated for their differences regardless of: POLITICS, SKIN COLOR, RELIGION, SEX, SEXUAL ORIENTATION, SPIRITUALITY, ETC.
I hope one day we can sit around and think back to the alful days when we didn't have PEACE.
 
Zjabo
PLEASE go rent the movie Waco The rules of Engagement! The davidians were not a group of nuts! They were not outcasts or a cult. Nor did they possess illegal weapons until AFTER the raid and only then did they convert the weapons to automatic. The FBI had a snitch inside and he even agreed to that fact. The davidians had been searched many times before without incident and had lived in waco since 1938. The media did manipulate the situation by militarizing it. The video I mention is not a hollywood re creation of events it is a video of the actual raid filmed by ATF and FBI as well as clips from the Senate Oversight hearings and something America has never seen until this movie came out. An actual video made by the davidians DURING the siege A video which was intended to be used by the FBI to gain media support for thier actions but as the FBI admits They refused to allow this video to be aired because they feared it would only gain support for the davidians and it does To hear the testimony of those who died in that church from thier own lips will bring both a tear to your eye and an anger in your heart! Its quite an impressive video. Yes its meant to influence public opionion but unlike a fucking media press statement full of fabrication exaggeration or other hype This is fact based and cannot be disputed as the evidence is taken from government sources. The other comments about romantasizing the past Thats not what I intended I only meant to give a comparison of our nations willingness to forthink its actions and act with some concern for the future and world stability as it sometimes did in the past and how it behaves now. Specifically around the Marshall Plan then, and the way it behaves now. Particularly in the middle east not to mention our domestic policies. Thanks for the insight I didnt even concentrate on the Native Americans and our other misdeeds.
 
Exx_head you clown... People of the Great Nation in capitals as if it's a world religion, hmm..... ;)
[ 23 May 2002: Message edited by: yossarian.lives ]
 
Exx_head, I've always loved you for your smile and looks, but now I love you for your politics ;)
I have many opinions on this, but after reading through all the responses, Im sure its nothing new to add. I would just say that I respect the intelligent reflection that has led many here to adopt positions that are mostly if not entirely critical of nationalism and western nationalism in particular. More often than not, however, it seems these same individuals find it difficult to believe that someone can, with an equal amount of intelligent reflection, arrive at opposite conclusions. Perhaps that is because many people who take a more favorable view of these things often do not articulate their positions with the same measure of academic clarity and forensic integrity.
I guess I will simply say that I am proud to be an American for many reasons. For one, I am proud that I have the opportunity to sit in traffic for 3 hours as I pass the White House because people who embrace the values many have expressed here are afforded the opportunity to converge upon our nation's capitol to impede traffic, taunt police officers, burn our leaders in effigy and otherwise protest against all things government and wealth-producing. I am proud because as much as I may roll my eyes and get agitated with them, I know that they will spend the night in someplace more comfortable than a dank prison cell. They will share via telephone the exhileration of their day of protest with friends and families, rather than being kept incommunicado and tortured for expressing seditious dissent. But this is only the smaller part of my pride.
The larger part of my pride in America comes from realizing that this freedom was not always a fact. Less than a half century ago, people came to that same capitol, not of their own volition, to defend themselves against prison and blacklisting for having associations far less overtly critical of America than we see today.
My pride in America is founded largely on my belief that the idea that is America is ever-pregnant with hope. Given the option to choose cynicism and derision about the flaws and injustices associated with modern America, I see instead a huge opportunity to hope and strive, with a reasonable expectation of fulfillment, for a better tomorrow.
Many would disagree with my optimism. I disagree as strongly with their cynicism. I respect that what is a positive to me, may in fact be too tainted with negatives for your tastes. I suspect that this boils down to basic assumptions about life. Whereas I may see approximations of love and justice as worthy goals in a flawed world, you may see a single child left behind as drop of oil that contaminates the entire glass of water. So be it.
I do sincerely hope we all realize that either side of any issue can and will be championed by both those who are emotionally driven to blind loyalties as well as those who have arrived at such conclusions as a result of intelligent and well-informed reflection. In a discussion such as this, neither side has a preponderance or scarcity of either sort of proponent.
[ 01 June 2002: Message edited by: beachboyty ]
 
Fantastic post beachboyty.
My view of pride in ones country?
There is a great privalege that goes with being born during these decades in a well developed, high standard of living, liberal democratic nation. If you are sitting here reading this on a computer, count yourself among us lucky few (and few we really are).
However, here are some salient words:
“Patriotism is the last refuge
of a scoundrel.” —Samuel Johnson.
Pride is an exclusionary notion. To attach this to ourselves on the basis of our fortunate geopolitical situation is unfair. Is it a morally significant factor, where we live, our value system? Should we make distinctions based upon it? If we should, then what is the difference between making distinctions between this, and race or class? Are these important?
The moment we get caught up in pride and patriotism, is where we become insecure. Fear about what the 'others' could take away from us becomes prevalent. A desire to maintain our position becomes imperitive. Patriotism has been used to justify many a devilish deed in the past, just look at the mess which comprised WWI.
Instead of wallowing in complacency over the fantastic state of our 'nations' we should continue to improve conditions for ourselves and others, without rest.
Gah, what a wank ;)
 
Hey Ty, thanks again for making me feel good about not being the only "wank" in here. I'll give you a big wet kiss if we ever meet! I'll be in DC on Jun 28-Jul 1 if for some reason you're there.
Yossarian.lives: Curses! You've discovered my secret. I have been subliminally recruiting for my new religion called the Lovers of Great Nations. I'd have made it too, if it weren't for those meddling kids. Dammit!
[ 01 June 2002: Message edited by: Exx_head ]
 
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