Prescription Regulation

justgettothepoint

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Mar 30, 2009
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I am new to this message board and would like to start off my postings with the most important issue in my life right now....... prescription drug regulation.

I just want to throw the question out there.......

How many of you feel the federal government should impose tougher, stricter prescription drug regulations?

I think that the federal government should impose much tougher guidelines on schedule 1-5 drugs. I will wait to share my side of the argument until I see some responses to the issue.

Now I am not talking about the penalties for violating the various controlled substances acts, but the actual process for obtaining and filling prescriptions in the US.

Please share your opinions with me on here.

Thank You
 
The regs are so tight now, doctors are far too reluctant to prescribe them when they are really needed. They are all afraid of the DEA investigating them.

I left the ER one night with a fracture on the top of my foot. I can tolerate pain pretty well, but the crack in my foot separated with every step I took.
Soooo, what did I get for pain? 20 5mg lortabs. I chewed up 5 just to get home

The next giant wave of class action law suits will be over peoples livers being destroyed by taking excessive and completely unnecessary levels of Tylenol with their pain meds.
 
^ I would genuinely like to see that happen. APAP is the government's prescription-drug version of Paraquat.
 
Not sure what you mean by "tougher guidelines." I think a better approach is simply to give doctors better access to a patient's prescription history. We spend a lot of money educating and training doctors. I'd like to give them better tools to use that education and training to resolve substance abuse problems in their patients without the need for law enforcement.

Could you elaborate on your ideas?
 
I agree with the British system:

Any doctor can prescribe any drug for any purpose as they see fit.

This was true, and to a large extent still is. The exception being addictive substances, a doctor has to have a special license to prescribe Heroin/Cocaine/etc to addicts, but it is still possible.

There are several hundred people in the UK who receive IV ampoules of Heroin + Cocaine by prescription.

No one can judge what anyone needs better than a well trained physician without harsh and burdensome regulations and an atmosphere of fear.

The war on doctors, from its first installment in the 1920s-30s, which recently fired up again from the late 90s to the present, is completely absurd and does a huge disservive to everyone: patients, doctors, lay people, the criminal justice system, etc.
 
"Tougher guidelines" entails all types of regulations, Heuristic, one of which most certainly should be a database that all doctors and pharmacists would have access to that would show a patients prescription history.

I envision a centralized electronic database where every person's prescription history is stored. When a doctor would write a prescription he would have to enter it into the database, and the pharmacist would not be able to fill the prescription unless the doctor does so. The database would include such information as : name, address, phone number, ID number (i.e. SS#), type of medication, dosage, refills, etc.. It would also contain a brief description of what the medication is being prescribed for (not just "as needed for pain").

Also I feel as though there should be some type of system put into place to determine the type of drug and dosage needed. For example, if you visit the emergency room for a fractured foot, as the case of PottedMeat, then you would not get the same medication and dosage as a person who stubbed their toe. Now this system would take a great deal of research and time to institute, but would be well worth it. Doctors should all have to adhere to the same guidelines when prescribing medications. I know that each case is unique, but we have to have some type of basis when prescribing narcotics.

So my basic idea is a combination of a centralized database and a system to guide doctors when prescribing medications. The combination of these two ideas could revolutionized the pharmaceutical community. It would take great effort, time, and cooperation between several government and private agencies. It would cost a great deal of money to implement and to maintain. But there is no price on human lives. Prescription drug abuse is a serious problem in America, and no doubt throughout the world.

Please help keep this thread alive by continuing to post your ideas and/or comments. Thank You.
 
^It's already happening in the US. Doctor's offices are going to be computerized soon. It's veru expensive and doesn't really pay off for the doctors so they are reluctant to get their office computerized. I heard it's something like 200,000 for a small sized office. It might take some time for all office to be computerized but it will happen cuz there is definite pressure on doctors for that.
 
A centralized, prescribing-history database is a very bad idea. How would you control access?

I also think that this may be a "Lounge" topic rather than Legal.
 
OP, I agree with much of what you say. My primary concern is privacy. I can envision several ways in which we can safeguard such privacy, but I'd need to be fully assured before I could be fully comfortable. I agree that this would produce a great many positive results.

It's worth pointing out that, in the US at least, many individual states have begun compiling databases of prescriptions of controlled substances, and that these databases can be cross-checked.
 
"Tougher guidelines" entails all types of regulations, Heuristic, one of which most certainly should be a database that all doctors and pharmacists would have access to that would show a patients prescription history.

I envision a centralized electronic database where every person's prescription history is stored. When a doctor would write a prescription he would have to enter it into the database, and the pharmacist would not be able to fill the prescription unless the doctor does so. The database would include such information as : name, address, phone number, ID number (i.e. SS#), type of medication, dosage, refills, etc.. It would also contain a brief description of what the medication is being prescribed for (not just "as needed for pain").

Also I feel as though there should be some type of system put into place to determine the type of drug and dosage needed. For example, if you visit the emergency room for a fractured foot, as the case of PottedMeat, then you would not get the same medication and dosage as a person who stubbed their toe. Now this system would take a great deal of research and time to institute, but would be well worth it. Doctors should all have to adhere to the same guidelines when prescribing medications. I know that each case is unique, but we have to have some type of basis when prescribing narcotics.

So my basic idea is a combination of a centralized database and a system to guide doctors when prescribing medications. The combination of these two ideas could revolutionized the pharmaceutical community. It would take great effort, time, and cooperation between several government and private agencies. It would cost a great deal of money to implement and to maintain. But there is no price on human lives. Prescription drug abuse is a serious problem in America, and no doubt throughout the world.

Please help keep this thread alive by continuing to post your ideas and/or comments. Thank You.

A doctors discretion is the ultimate regulation. Politicians and legislators have no business regulating how much of medicine x is appropriate for injury y. This is absurd. Such a system would require an innordinate amount of attention per patient that goes beyond reasonable.

I am interested to know what you think of a British System-type prescribing system, where an individual doctor can prescribe any drug for any reason as they see fit. Specifically, do you believe a doctor should be allowed to prescribe a patient who is an addict the drug they are addicted to in the interest of harm reduction, health and societies best interest?

There are thousands of addicts who find Methadone, Buprenorphine, Dihydrocodeine and other currently available maintenance medications inadequate, and have tried and been unsuccessful in abstinence-only treatments which utilize medications like Clonidine, Lofexidine, Naltrexone, etc.

Should these people be allowed to enter Heroin, Morphine, Oxycodone, etc maintenance under the direction and guidance of their doctor?

If not, why not? I have never, ever heard a good reason against this system. There is no rational, valid reason why such care should be against the law (and it currently is against the law in most of the world, and is highly successful in those countries where it is allowed).

Though this is just one example. Under the system you envision, people like this would be red flagged and ostrasized when going in for any type of medical procedure or treatment, as they will be saved in this national database as 'drug seekers', 'addicts', etc where, under the current law, they cannot receive adequate treatment (and in the case of many, many people, they receive inadequate care for unrelated medical procedures and problems due to their status as an addict. I personally have experienced this at the hands of medical proffesionals, as have many other people on this site.).
 
^ well... I don't know. If a patient's prescription records were all easily accessible by a doctor, AND if we allowed a doctor to prescribe whatever medication he saw fit (subject to the standards of his profession), I don't think being "flagged" as "addicted" would be as problematic as you think.

It's certainly true that a doctor would then become more cautious about prescribing a patient a medication with a high potential for abuse. He should be. Addiction to medication is not a good thing. BUT, having all the cards on the table will raise his comfort level in treating the patient. That is, now that he knows, and can be confident that he knows the patient, and the patient's actual prescription history, he can worry a little less about the patient deceiving him--and the patient might be more upfront about his past with addiction.

The end result is that the doctor and patient can make a more informed decision about what treatment to follow. The problem with the current system is that, for certain conditions, it can be extremely difficult for a doctor to distinguish between someone who is simply addicted, someone who is seeking to score, someone who really has the complained of condition and would be best served with a medication that is unfortunately addictive, or some combination of the three.

A centralized, complete, database would allow a doctor to quickly distinguish between these types of patients. So... the patient simply looking to score, in no danger from withdrawal, can be directed towards the appropriate counseling; the addict can be counseled about treatment, and prescribed accordingly; and the unfortunate patient who is a mixture of the three can start to be treated more effectively.

When doctors are not given all the facts, and patients begin simply to seek a certain medication by saying what they think are the right things, the effect is that the patient is actually self-prescribing and self-treating (the doctor's judgment being mitigated or removed by the patient's deception). So this database might actually result in more effective treatment.
 
^ well... I don't know. If a patient's prescription records were all easily accessible by a doctor, AND if we allowed a doctor to prescribe whatever medication he saw fit (subject to the standards of his profession), I don't think being "flagged" as "addicted" would be as problematic as you think.

It's certainly true that a doctor would then become more cautious about prescribing a patient a medication with a high potential for abuse. He should be. Addiction to medication is not a good thing. BUT, having all the cards on the table will raise his comfort level in treating the patient. That is, now that he knows, and can be confident that he knows the patient, and the patient's actual prescription history, he can worry a little less about the patient deceiving him--and the patient might be more upfront about his past with addiction.

The end result is that the doctor and patient can make a more informed decision about what treatment to follow. The problem with the current system is that, for certain conditions, it can be extremely difficult for a doctor to distinguish between someone who is simply addicted, someone who is seeking to score, someone who really has the complained of condition and would be best served with a medication that is unfortunately addictive, or some combination of the three.

A centralized, complete, database would allow a doctor to quickly distinguish between these types of patients. So... the patient simply looking to score, in no danger from withdrawal, can be directed towards the appropriate counseling; the addict can be counseled about treatment, and prescribed accordingly; and the unfortunate patient who is a mixture of the three can start to be treated more effectively.

When doctors are not given all the facts, and patients begin simply to seek a certain medication by saying what they think are the right things, the effect is that the patient is actually self-prescribing and self-treating (the doctor's judgment being mitigated or removed by the patient's deception). So this database might actually result in more effective treatment.

The problem is that in the US, we not only do not allow this type of prescribing, it is against the law: doctors who are even thought to be a little loose with the Rx pad get investigated, shut down and/or thrown in jail.

I know from experience what its like to receive medical treatment as a known addict in the US in the present day. It's repugnant. Without a system of relaxed regulation, a centralized computer database of patient records accessible to any health care or insurance worker would be an insanely detrimental move. With current regulation, a known addict, or, I should say, perceived "Drug Seeker" (which is the term used by doctors today), is not only treated differently, they are almost not treated at all. Others have written in this thread about receiving inadequate pain medication- this experience is common for normal people, not known or perceived 'drug seekers'. Unless the war on doctors ends and the regulation surrounding prescription allowance on the part of doctors is relaxed tremendously, such a system will only further scare doctors away from providing adequate treatment under fear they will be investigated, have their license stripped or practice destroyed from legal battles, or thrown in jail for a prescription they write.

The rights of the patient supercede the rights of the government to say whether or not a particular medication is necessary. So what if someone were a drug seeker, or a drug addict? Are these things so evil that such behavior ought to be demonized and criminalized to the point where no one in the society can be treated properly by medical professionals for fear of maybe giving drugs to an addict? Do drug addicts and drug seekers not deserve the same standards of health care as a non-addict non-drug using citizen? Do they deserve the same human rights?
 
OP- your plan is puritanical and cruel/immoral. It claims that it is more important to try and stop someone from getting high than it is for a person to have access with appropriate and effective care. In other word you suggest that it is better to risk refusing 9 real people in pain to stop 1 potential abuser. Indeed it is the other way around that is correct, that it is better to give drugs to nine people who abuse them to avoid refusing one who needs them.

The centralization is fine, but the guidelines for treatment is absurd and this is what is cruel. It is impossible to make mandatory guidlines for treatmnets and drugs/dosages for each illness and not significantly reduce the effectiveness of treatment. Treat HAS to be indivualized and doctors need to be given the descretion to prescribe whatever sees as best because every situation is unique. Of course there general treatment plans for illnesses already, however Drs need to be allowed to improvise however they need to. We need to fuckin trust our Dr.s

Think of it this way, when drugs are harder to get it ONLY significantly affects legitimate patients because people looking to get high will just go buy drugs off the street because they are already so widely available (and even if oxycodone was completely removed, people would just substitute with herion and street opioids). However, real patients in need are much more likely to stay within the medical system so it will only be more difficult for them to obtain the drugs, people who want to get high will just buy the drugs. This is why the kinds of regulations you propose are so idiotic and cruel, they sacrifice patient care in the name of the war on drugs and it makes me fuckin sick as a pain patient myself that people actually feel this is justified. And no matter what you think, it is IMPOSSIBLE to make drugs harder to obtain for addicts without making them harder to obtain for real patients.

I really hope you change your mind on this and that this horrible idea does not get implmented any more then it is already as it has aldready made the lives of people in pain much harder and hopeless. Keep in mind many medical organizations (AMA etc.) Have protested very strongly against this type of regulation and state that there is already an epidemic of people in pain that cannot obtain proper treatment as it is and that stricter regulations will only make this much worse.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'm sorry, I might have accidentally posted a number of times, I was using a mobile phone and did not realize mods had to approve posts, just thought it was my.phone acting up.

Also OP- I didn't mean to be mean if it came off that way, I just get frustrated as I do not feel people understand how difficult it generally for people who need them to get pain meds as is, and that this does not affect people lookin to get high because they just get them illegally anyhow, whether through crooked drs or off the street. Anyway, I a apologize for some the stronger language I used.
 
When a doctor would write a prescription he would have to enter it into the database, and the pharmacist would not be able to fill the prescription unless the doctor does so.
<-- Doctors are too busy as it is... could their nurses do it instead?

I feel as though there should be some type of system put into place to determine the type of drug and dosage needed.
<-- Doctors already have those programs on their PDAs.

It would take great effort, time, and cooperation between several government and private agencies.
<-- ... Your private agency included, right? $$$

But there is no price on human lives.
<-- Yes there is.
 
The problem is that in the US, we not only do not allow this type of prescribing, it is against the law: doctors who are even thought to be a little loose with the Rx pad get investigated, shut down and/or thrown in jail.

I know from experience what its like to receive medical treatment as a known addict in the US in the present day. It's repugnant. Without a system of relaxed regulation, a centralized computer database of patient records accessible to any health care or insurance worker would be an insanely detrimental move. With current regulation, a known addict, or, I should say, perceived "Drug Seeker" (which is the term used by doctors today), is not only treated differently, they are almost not treated at all. Others have written in this thread about receiving inadequate pain medication- this experience is common for normal people, not known or perceived 'drug seekers'. Unless the war on doctors ends and the regulation surrounding prescription allowance on the part of doctors is relaxed tremendously, such a system will only further scare doctors away from providing adequate treatment under fear they will be investigated, have their license stripped or practice destroyed from legal battles, or thrown in jail for a prescription they write.

The rights of the patient supercede the rights of the government to say whether or not a particular medication is necessary. So what if someone were a drug seeker, or a drug addict? Are these things so evil that such behavior ought to be demonized and criminalized to the point where no one in the society can be treated properly by medical professionals for fear of maybe giving drugs to an addict? Do drug addicts and drug seekers not deserve the same standards of health care as a non-addict non-drug using citizen? Do they deserve the same human rights?

Okay. I disagree with you that someone is denied any medical care simply because he is known to be an addict. There is a difference between the drug-seeking addict who fraudulently claims symptoms, and feigns ignorance of medications, and deceives about his medical history, to acquire drugs; and the patient who is forthright about his history, his condition, and his knowledge of medication.

My view is that the widespread use of electronic health records (EHRs) would, again, by increasing disclosure and trust between patients, allow a single doctor and patient to explore and find the best pain management regime--or, in the case of someone who is simply addicted, the best way off the drug.

I do not know of any cases where a doctor was prosecuted for writing prescriptions for legitimate medical needs. I DO think doctors are wary of possibly doing harm when writing a scrip for a new patient, whom they do not trust, who exhibits all the signs of drug-seeking behavior; but this isn't out of fear of prosecution.

I'm curious to know what the OP thinks about all this as well.
 
Okay I think that some may be missing the point here. I am FULLY aware of the patients out there that are in treatment programs to aid in addiction to opiates. What I want to see is a society where we have LESS people addicted to opiates. The only way to do this is through extensive monitoring of the prescription system. Doctors need to be made aware of possible drug-abuse signs before it is too late. We need to be in the business of addiction-prevention, and not addiction-treatment. The more we become focused on prevention, the less we will have to spend on treatment. This is obivious. Methadone, etc. clinics need to be in place to help those that are ALREADY addicted to opiates. And this is not just a problem in the big metro areas anymore either. I live in a small town in south GA and we have had a methadone clinic for about 4 years now. My dad went there until the day he died. I used to stand in line with him waiting for the clinic to open (his health had become so bad he needed someone by his side 24/7). I would talk with the patients at the clinic and ALL of them were there because of LEGAL opiate abuse. NOT ONE of them ever talked about herion. My point is that in todays society we are too relaxed on this problem, too many people are being hurt and killed because the system allows it to happen. The drug manufacturers are not going to do anything about it. They continue to make more potent opioids and providing them to the public. I read an article just today about an opioid that is 10,000 times more potent than morhphine. In another report I read they now use analogues of amphetamine that are 85% more "effective" than previous l- or d- isomers of the chemical. They are putting this in an ADHD drug approved for 6-18 years olds!! 85% effective just means that 85% more of the drug is metabolized by the body, making it that much more potent. Its time that people stand up and say enough is enough. We over-medicate ourselves and then turn to other medications when we need to fix the problem. Pharmaceutical companies only see dollar signs. Doctors do the bidding of the drug companies, and pharmacies only follow the doctors orders. All the while the federal government lets it go on. I say YES to tougher prescription regulations (including but not limited to the ones I discussed in the previous post) and addiction-prevention.
 
You are biased by your experiences, things are already so bad that the only people who have the persistence to get prescribed opiates are addicts.
Normal people in severe pain get 800mg ibuprofen and if they ask for something else they get a disapproving response that embarrasses them into suffering in silence.

My father suffers bouts of kidney stones and he had to FIGHT and argue just to get 5mg/500mg hydrocodone/APAP in ten pill quantities, things are bad and just getting worse.
 
^ regarding cases like the above... I think we should be careful in judging the doctor.

He has to weight "less acute pain" against "probability of addiction." If the acute pain can be managed through other means, and the probability of addiction is high...

My point is that it's just a judgment call. The addictive properties of these medications are a legitimate, important, negative for a doctor to take into account when prescribing them.
 
There is absolutely no reason to worry about possibility of addiction. The vast majority of pain sufferers treated with opioids do NOT become psychologically addicted, even if they become physically tolerant. When you take opioids to kill pain instead of to get high, they are fairly easy to taper off of under medical supervision.
 
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