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AADD Moderators: andyturbo
Prayer at work... what do you think?
- Thread starter muzby
- Start date
sKatteredchickee
Bluelighter
interesting topic...good to see some quality discussion happening (tho daimo you did make me laugh! have you been milked yet?)
I've just started a new job in a call centre and its a bit of a change coming from the casual environment I used to work in. At my old job you took breaks when you felt like it..very laidback. new job: breaks are scheduled so you get 15 minutes in the morning and arvo and 1/2 hr for lunch. You have to take your breaks spot on so that they have coverage of the phones at all times.
Now, if I cut my lunch break and took extra time in the arvo for prayer, smoko, breastfeeding or whatever else it was I wanted to do, I'd probably get fired!! From an employers point of view, the rosters are set up for a reason...they are trying run a business afterall.
Another point to consider...if any of us went over to an Arabic or other very religious country, we would have to abide by their religious/political laws. I have no probs with that, it's what happens when you go travelling, you follow the rules of the country you are in. It does bother me when someone from another country and wants to make their own rules over here.
If someone wants to practise their religion...fine by me, but do it on the official break time that you have been given. If everyone started making their own rules at work I can guarantee that Australia wouldnt be a very productive country!!
There are plenty of companies that cater for people who have different work needs whether it be time off for their kids, religious or other studies etc. If a person isn't happy with the policies regarding break times at a particular work place, they shouldnt take the job there! In a perfect world, all of us would have a job that moulded its self around other factors in our lives. But in reality what it comes down to is, you go to work to work...simple as that
________________________________________________
If you could have one wish, what would it be?
"Tougher sentences for parol violaters
.....and world peace"
keep smilin!
[ 11 October 2002: Message edited by: sKatteredchickee ]
I've just started a new job in a call centre and its a bit of a change coming from the casual environment I used to work in. At my old job you took breaks when you felt like it..very laidback. new job: breaks are scheduled so you get 15 minutes in the morning and arvo and 1/2 hr for lunch. You have to take your breaks spot on so that they have coverage of the phones at all times.
Now, if I cut my lunch break and took extra time in the arvo for prayer, smoko, breastfeeding or whatever else it was I wanted to do, I'd probably get fired!! From an employers point of view, the rosters are set up for a reason...they are trying run a business afterall.
Another point to consider...if any of us went over to an Arabic or other very religious country, we would have to abide by their religious/political laws. I have no probs with that, it's what happens when you go travelling, you follow the rules of the country you are in. It does bother me when someone from another country and wants to make their own rules over here.
If someone wants to practise their religion...fine by me, but do it on the official break time that you have been given. If everyone started making their own rules at work I can guarantee that Australia wouldnt be a very productive country!!
There are plenty of companies that cater for people who have different work needs whether it be time off for their kids, religious or other studies etc. If a person isn't happy with the policies regarding break times at a particular work place, they shouldnt take the job there! In a perfect world, all of us would have a job that moulded its self around other factors in our lives. But in reality what it comes down to is, you go to work to work...simple as that
________________________________________________
If you could have one wish, what would it be?
"Tougher sentences for parol violaters
.....and world peace"
keep smilin!
[ 11 October 2002: Message edited by: sKatteredchickee ]
If you were a smoker and needed smoke breaks, you would let your employer know during the interview.
If you are a Muslim, and needed to pray 20 minutes a day, you would make it known when applying for the job.
If you were hiring a smoker, you should know that they will need smoke breaks. If you did not like that, give the job to someone else.
If you were hiring a Muslim, you should have enough religious tolerance to accept their practise and make allowances for that. If you think that 20 minutes is too unproductive, hire someone else. And go smack yourself on the head.
If your other employees are going to feel disadvantaged and thus less productive because another member of staff has a genuine commitment or addiction to fulfil without compromising on productivity, maybe the question then is whether these other employees have the right attitude to work and life.
Macksta is right about Mr El-Masri. All he has done is to fight the system by its own rules. Perhaps these rules were not made with an "outsider" in mind? I say good on Mr El-Masri, play on the sympathy of the politically correct moral majority if that is what it takes because that is how the rules of the game go. Forcing his employers to compromise or showing the hypocrisy that is the system. Either way he wins.
And to whoever says we should all conform to the Western approach to work/etc because Australia has its roots in the Western world, I say a big fuck off mate. You want roots? The indigenous culture would be alot more appropriate. Maybe you did not intend to be racist, dumb, bigoted. But that is how you will come across to me. Quite frankly, I am sick of how some "Westerners" try to disguise their superiority complex by pretending to be objective, compromising and understanding. Try applying these on an individual level rather than wearing them as name tags. If I do not know someone personally, I will not think twice about calling him/her a dumb aussie, fucking wog, pakistani prick, whatever. In fact, I've been known to introduce myself as the Chinky Dink or the Dim Sim. However, that does not and should not apply when being introduced to someone or when interacting with someone on a personal level. When you talk to me, I will treat you as you should be treated. A human being.
If you are a Muslim, and needed to pray 20 minutes a day, you would make it known when applying for the job.
If you were hiring a smoker, you should know that they will need smoke breaks. If you did not like that, give the job to someone else.
If you were hiring a Muslim, you should have enough religious tolerance to accept their practise and make allowances for that. If you think that 20 minutes is too unproductive, hire someone else. And go smack yourself on the head.
If your other employees are going to feel disadvantaged and thus less productive because another member of staff has a genuine commitment or addiction to fulfil without compromising on productivity, maybe the question then is whether these other employees have the right attitude to work and life.
Macksta is right about Mr El-Masri. All he has done is to fight the system by its own rules. Perhaps these rules were not made with an "outsider" in mind? I say good on Mr El-Masri, play on the sympathy of the politically correct moral majority if that is what it takes because that is how the rules of the game go. Forcing his employers to compromise or showing the hypocrisy that is the system. Either way he wins.
And to whoever says we should all conform to the Western approach to work/etc because Australia has its roots in the Western world, I say a big fuck off mate. You want roots? The indigenous culture would be alot more appropriate. Maybe you did not intend to be racist, dumb, bigoted. But that is how you will come across to me. Quite frankly, I am sick of how some "Westerners" try to disguise their superiority complex by pretending to be objective, compromising and understanding. Try applying these on an individual level rather than wearing them as name tags. If I do not know someone personally, I will not think twice about calling him/her a dumb aussie, fucking wog, pakistani prick, whatever. In fact, I've been known to introduce myself as the Chinky Dink or the Dim Sim. However, that does not and should not apply when being introduced to someone or when interacting with someone on a personal level. When you talk to me, I will treat you as you should be treated. A human being.
Riot Grrrl
Bluelighter
k,
I've been thinking about this and this is what i've come up with. If you do have religious commitments such as this gentleman does then why not find a job that can accomodate those needs?
If his job is demanding and he can't find time to prayer then ask for a transfer or be put in a different section of the office/factory where he can work and prayer and no one will mind.
I've been thinking about this and this is what i've come up with. If you do have religious commitments such as this gentleman does then why not find a job that can accomodate those needs?
If his job is demanding and he can't find time to prayer then ask for a transfer or be put in a different section of the office/factory where he can work and prayer and no one will mind.
Good topic.
I work for a large IT consulting company and one of the staff here is Jewish. Everyday, at random times, she takes approx. 20 minutes off to pray. She goes into different areas of the building, no matter whether they are filled with people or not, stands with her face pointing a wall and stats praying. She will leave meetings with clients, hang up on people, stop whatever she is doing so she can pray.
She also has each and every Friday off for religious purposes. When she travels to various client interstate her partner must accompany her. This has become tiresome for the company as they have to book two flights, pay for it, then deduct the cost of the second flight from her wage.
As she is Jewish she only eats kosher prepared food which again cause trouble when she visits a client. She usually takes her own food with her or watches people eat their lunch and wait.
People find it hard to communicate with her because she is very religious and gets easily offended by people. For example, she cannot be in a room alone with 2 or more men. Very hard to accomodate especially when she is working in a heavily male populated field (programming).
If someone says the word 'promise' and break their promise it's some sort of religious offence.
I could go on....
Now the point i'm trying to make is when does her religion become counter productive. I think my company has been very, very patient in accepting her and has done everything in their power to help facilitate the connection between her working life and her religion. However, I believe she is taking it to the extreme. She has now requested an office as she requires it for some 'religious' reason.
Her actions are also effecting other staff as she is a 'software manager' and every Friday if her staff get stuck they basically have to sit around and twiddle their thumbs.
Other staff, who are not of that religion, have begun to complain as they see her as abusing the system.
The company has looked into it and mentioned something to her yet she refuses to budge or even compensate. She has become to use to a system/government/society which supports and even protects people who are different.
In my opinion she has taken it too far. She continuously has new demands which she claims are religious. She quotes and points reference to her holy scriptures and continues to cause harm.
The company is basically trapped into keeping her because she can sue if she is sacked because of her religion.
I feel sorry for the company and think there should be some laws put in place to protect the company. Too often the company is seen as the enemy and people are able to abuse it.
ed note:
Before people say we should not have hired her originally she never told us about all her demands. She stated she was Jewish and that she required 20 minutes a day to pray. The demands came when she started.
.......
Hmmm wish Jedi was a religion. We could devote time to meditation, the force. Yep, before any big meeting or 'clash' we could all kneel down and just meditate. (Like what Quigon does while he's waiting to fight Darth Maul).
hehe
F
[ 11 October 2002: Message edited by: friskk ]
[ 11 October 2002: Message edited by: friskk ]
I work for a large IT consulting company and one of the staff here is Jewish. Everyday, at random times, she takes approx. 20 minutes off to pray. She goes into different areas of the building, no matter whether they are filled with people or not, stands with her face pointing a wall and stats praying. She will leave meetings with clients, hang up on people, stop whatever she is doing so she can pray.
She also has each and every Friday off for religious purposes. When she travels to various client interstate her partner must accompany her. This has become tiresome for the company as they have to book two flights, pay for it, then deduct the cost of the second flight from her wage.
As she is Jewish she only eats kosher prepared food which again cause trouble when she visits a client. She usually takes her own food with her or watches people eat their lunch and wait.
People find it hard to communicate with her because she is very religious and gets easily offended by people. For example, she cannot be in a room alone with 2 or more men. Very hard to accomodate especially when she is working in a heavily male populated field (programming).
If someone says the word 'promise' and break their promise it's some sort of religious offence.
I could go on....
Now the point i'm trying to make is when does her religion become counter productive. I think my company has been very, very patient in accepting her and has done everything in their power to help facilitate the connection between her working life and her religion. However, I believe she is taking it to the extreme. She has now requested an office as she requires it for some 'religious' reason.
Her actions are also effecting other staff as she is a 'software manager' and every Friday if her staff get stuck they basically have to sit around and twiddle their thumbs.
Other staff, who are not of that religion, have begun to complain as they see her as abusing the system.
The company has looked into it and mentioned something to her yet she refuses to budge or even compensate. She has become to use to a system/government/society which supports and even protects people who are different.
In my opinion she has taken it too far. She continuously has new demands which she claims are religious. She quotes and points reference to her holy scriptures and continues to cause harm.
The company is basically trapped into keeping her because she can sue if she is sacked because of her religion.
I feel sorry for the company and think there should be some laws put in place to protect the company. Too often the company is seen as the enemy and people are able to abuse it.
ed note:
Before people say we should not have hired her originally she never told us about all her demands. She stated she was Jewish and that she required 20 minutes a day to pray. The demands came when she started.
.......
Hmmm wish Jedi was a religion. We could devote time to meditation, the force. Yep, before any big meeting or 'clash' we could all kneel down and just meditate. (Like what Quigon does while he's waiting to fight Darth Maul).
hehe
F
[ 11 October 2002: Message edited by: friskk ]
[ 11 October 2002: Message edited by: friskk ]
Why the fuck do smokers need extra breaks?
I'm a smoker that works 9 hrs a day, and I pretty much stick with the breaks that are given to me which are a
15 minute tea break which I get around about 2 - 3 hrs after I start my shift, a
1 hour lunch break which I usually take within 2 - 3 hrs after my first tea break, and another
15 minute tea break which I usually take within 1.5 - 2 hours after I've had my lunch break.
Sometimes I may work a 10 hr day, and if it's really quiet I may duck out for 5 mins, but most of the time I'll only have a 45 minute lunch so I can legitimately have another 15 minute break.
Some of the staff and managers at my work are just constantly out for smoko's all the time, and quite frankly it shits me up the wall. As someone who practically manages my department, I try to set a good example to my staff (when I give a shit
), and I think that management should really stop these *extra* smoko breaks, but seeing as though almost everyone smokes no one has the nerve to say anything to anyone or actually do anything about it.
If I can have my cigarette's on my breaks without needing any extra time then I don't see why anyone else needs them, I don't really care how many you smoke a day, why on earth should others have to suffer from your lack of work because you're feeding a habit, it's selfish!
I'm a smoker that works 9 hrs a day, and I pretty much stick with the breaks that are given to me which are a
15 minute tea break which I get around about 2 - 3 hrs after I start my shift, a
1 hour lunch break which I usually take within 2 - 3 hrs after my first tea break, and another
15 minute tea break which I usually take within 1.5 - 2 hours after I've had my lunch break.
Sometimes I may work a 10 hr day, and if it's really quiet I may duck out for 5 mins, but most of the time I'll only have a 45 minute lunch so I can legitimately have another 15 minute break.
Some of the staff and managers at my work are just constantly out for smoko's all the time, and quite frankly it shits me up the wall. As someone who practically manages my department, I try to set a good example to my staff (when I give a shit
), and I think that management should really stop these *extra* smoko breaks, but seeing as though almost everyone smokes no one has the nerve to say anything to anyone or actually do anything about it.If I can have my cigarette's on my breaks without needing any extra time then I don't see why anyone else needs them, I don't really care how many you smoke a day, why on earth should others have to suffer from your lack of work because you're feeding a habit, it's selfish!
Bluelight new posta here...Hello.
I think this situation smacks of racisim.
The man has said he will make up time for loss of productivity, so whats the problem?
So he can not help his clients for ten minutes, what if he had to go to the toilet, are bosses going to say no you cant you must do your job instead.
Most companies will give people time off for smoking, picking up children from school etc.
It wasnt so long ago that if you didnt practice your religion you were a sinner . Hence the change in working laws by unions to allow for sundays off.
Its obvious that the religion of the 21 century is production for the corporation.
I am not religious and I have made many carrer choices to walk away from big corporate jobs and government jobs that i did not agree with policies or the fact that they would not give me time of to teach.
I am lucky that I have been able to do this and still find work.
But in this day an age its individual belief that one can only really hold on to.
Maybe the guy should go to Amnesty and put his case forward, Im sure that would embarress the company enough to take on a more humanitarian point of view.
cheers
I think this situation smacks of racisim.
The man has said he will make up time for loss of productivity, so whats the problem?
So he can not help his clients for ten minutes, what if he had to go to the toilet, are bosses going to say no you cant you must do your job instead.
Most companies will give people time off for smoking, picking up children from school etc.
It wasnt so long ago that if you didnt practice your religion you were a sinner . Hence the change in working laws by unions to allow for sundays off.
Its obvious that the religion of the 21 century is production for the corporation.
I am not religious and I have made many carrer choices to walk away from big corporate jobs and government jobs that i did not agree with policies or the fact that they would not give me time of to teach.
I am lucky that I have been able to do this and still find work.
But in this day an age its individual belief that one can only really hold on to.
Maybe the guy should go to Amnesty and put his case forward, Im sure that would embarress the company enough to take on a more humanitarian point of view.
cheers
*chaoscat*
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2000
- Messages
- 957
Hmm.
Ive never had to work under strict conditions. I must be lucky.
Maybe we should be asking ourselves something about the working conditions people have to endure in this country.
No i aint part of the union..theyve f**ked me over to.
Ive never had to work under strict conditions. I must be lucky.
Maybe we should be asking ourselves something about the working conditions people have to endure in this country.
No i aint part of the union..theyve f**ked me over to.
Aside from the arguement of whether or not this man's religious beliefs should be accomodated or not, I think the unfortunate result of this case will be that in future, employers will simply not hire people they suspect of being of muslim faith as they will be seen as more trouble than they are worth.
anfalicious
Bluelighter
Why is it racist? This guy is saying "I need 20 minutes of to do *something*". Why should it matter what that something is?
Having said that, I think he should get the time off, I'm a big believer in the motto of happy workers are productive workers. I don't know the full situation (eg. what he does etc.) but surely there can be a way that his duties can be covered, if not, what do they do when he's on his lunch break? I'd say he should also be more accomodating, for example, he should be willing to pray at a time that is more agreeable to the company, but his religion wont let him.
It brings me to an idea, should he really get consideration for this? Would I get consideration if I really believed that I needed to sit in the sun for 20 minutes every afternoon? In life, sacrafices have to be made, ask the thousands upon thousands of women who are giving up having a family because it would get in the way of their career. At the end of the day, if we pander to everyones wants and desires, no one will be working...
I think a balance needs to be found, and each case needs to be considered on it's own merit. I do think that workplaces are starting to get a little too politically correct tho (re that jewish woman above).
You can't be christian and jewish, maybe people will have to start making a decision as to whether they are religious, or career orientated.
Having said that, I think he should get the time off, I'm a big believer in the motto of happy workers are productive workers. I don't know the full situation (eg. what he does etc.) but surely there can be a way that his duties can be covered, if not, what do they do when he's on his lunch break? I'd say he should also be more accomodating, for example, he should be willing to pray at a time that is more agreeable to the company, but his religion wont let him.
It brings me to an idea, should he really get consideration for this? Would I get consideration if I really believed that I needed to sit in the sun for 20 minutes every afternoon? In life, sacrafices have to be made, ask the thousands upon thousands of women who are giving up having a family because it would get in the way of their career. At the end of the day, if we pander to everyones wants and desires, no one will be working...
I think a balance needs to be found, and each case needs to be considered on it's own merit. I do think that workplaces are starting to get a little too politically correct tho (re that jewish woman above).
You can't be christian and jewish, maybe people will have to start making a decision as to whether they are religious, or career orientated.
For fuck's sake people, step outside yourselves and look at things objectively! While it is purely an assumption that this man is indeed a pious muslim, please understand that to one, the need to pray is as essential as the need to breathe! Just because you are aethist, agnostic, satanist and religion is just not that high up in your books does not mean everyone else should feel the same way. It is not as if the man is asking the company to stop operations for 20 minutes a day; he is merely asking for 20 minutes for him and him alone to pray.
Granted people do abuse these privileges, as per the example of the Jewish woman. All this means is that each individual needs to be considered on a case by case basis. That is what the Human Resources Manager is there for. Why should the company fear repercussions for firing the Jewish woman if it is so obvious that she is abusing the system or making up new practices that she never had to follow before?
I have Muslim friends who are flexible with their praying schedules, some drink, some even consume pork. Some of them are simply 'modern muslims' and do not stringently follow the commandments of their religion. Others do so because they realise that in seeking a new life in "white man's land", there are some sacrifices they have to make and seek Allah's forgiveness for their infringements. Yes, Mr El-Masri could have done the same. The question is why do they have to in the first place? Why is it that everyone else must suffer as much as or more than YOU do? How would you feel if you were working in a Muslim country and they FORCED you to pray 20 minutes everyday or risk losing your livelihood?
As with the analogy of smokers, the main concern should be results. It should not matter if Employee A takes a 10minute smoke break every hour while everyone else does not, so long as he produces as much results as everyone else.
Granted people do abuse these privileges, as per the example of the Jewish woman. All this means is that each individual needs to be considered on a case by case basis. That is what the Human Resources Manager is there for. Why should the company fear repercussions for firing the Jewish woman if it is so obvious that she is abusing the system or making up new practices that she never had to follow before?
I have Muslim friends who are flexible with their praying schedules, some drink, some even consume pork. Some of them are simply 'modern muslims' and do not stringently follow the commandments of their religion. Others do so because they realise that in seeking a new life in "white man's land", there are some sacrifices they have to make and seek Allah's forgiveness for their infringements. Yes, Mr El-Masri could have done the same. The question is why do they have to in the first place? Why is it that everyone else must suffer as much as or more than YOU do? How would you feel if you were working in a Muslim country and they FORCED you to pray 20 minutes everyday or risk losing your livelihood?
As with the analogy of smokers, the main concern should be results. It should not matter if Employee A takes a 10minute smoke break every hour while everyone else does not, so long as he produces as much results as everyone else.
Hehe
I reckon it would be ok if you were forced to take 20 min off work to get into your own head. No one would know if you were praying or not. still I reckon there is technology working on it tho (getting into your head that is)
I reckon it would be ok if you were forced to take 20 min off work to get into your own head. No one would know if you were praying or not. still I reckon there is technology working on it tho (getting into your head that is)