Post cycle therapy

[ongos]

as I'm getting ready for my PCT, I'm reading different procedures. I was going to take both Clomid and Nolvadex, but I read that both are interchangeable, meaning they both work similarly and I could use either one, right? I read Clomid will give you emotional mood swings. I'd avoid it if Clomid is not mandatory. Should I avoid Clomid and stick with just Nolva?

My cycle went like this:

First Month (HGH 4 IUs daily)

Second Month (HGH 5 IUs daily)

Third Month (HGH 5 IUs daily, Test Enanthate 500mg weekly, Anavar 50mg daily for first 3 weeks then on the 4th week I stepped it up to 100mg daily, Anastrazole 0.75 daily ever since the day I started my AAS cycle).

Fourth Month (HGH 7 IUs daily, Test Enanthate 500mg weekly, Anavar 100mg daily, Anastrozole 0.75 daily).

Anastrozole is for on cycle therapy (OCT). My AAS cycle is an 8 week cycle, my HGH cycle is for 6 months. I was going for a 10 week cycle of AAS but 500mg of Test Enanthate went to waste and the vial does not seem to have enough for a 9 week cycle either, thus, I'll keep it short to an 8 week cycle. Next time I should have gotten 3 vials. I know 2 vials was good for 10 weeks at 500mg weekly, but in case of an accidental waste I should have some extra, plus it's not all that accurate meaning you can't get all the stuff out of the vial to get the accurate measurements therefore I am stuck with just an 8 week supply. Oh well.

Fifth month - HGH 7 IUS daily

Sixth month - HGH 7 IUS daily

A summary of my cycle looks like this:

First 2 months - HGH only

Month 3 and 4 - HGH and AAS

Last 2 months - HGH only

Next week will be my last (8th week) shot of Test Enanthate and Anavar daily. I decided to do the Anavar for 8 weeks. I inject my Test Enanthate every Wednesday. So when do I start my PCT? The next day (Thursday)? I'm reading that with long esthers like Testosterone Enanthate, I should wait 3 days after my last shot (or is it 1 week, to prevent losing the effects of the Test Enanthate)? Is this about right? Do I stop my on cycle therapy (anastrozole) when I start my post cycle therapy?

My cycle might be unorthodox but any help or advice I could use is appreciated. I'll consider the best "bro science" that makes sense to me.

Someone told me about HCG but I'll pass on that considering that my cycle was not even heavy or oppressive (my testes never shrunk).

So for my PCT, is 20mg daily for 1 month of Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) good enough? If I have to add Clomid as well, what's the dosage should be and for how long (about a month)? Do I take one drug in the morning then the other at night?

 

[islander20]

Clomid is usually ran 50/50/25/25, I'm going to run an OTC anti estrogen/cortisol controller(erase) at 0/0/3/2/1 to help minimize rebound estrogen

Also that's a long time to be running an oral, hope you had some liver supports.

 

[ongos]

50 for 2 weeks, then 25 for 2 weeks? Is that what you meant by 50/50/25/25? Is OTC meaning over the counter? Or what is this?

Well I may cut the oral this week (7th week) instead of going for 8 weeks. I was told 8 weeks is ok, but 6 was supposed to be "standard" I guess. My liver support was that I got my Hep B immunizations last year (this is supposed to be good for 10 years or lifetime?). It's supposed to keep the liver healthy. I do use Milk Thistle dietary supplement (1000mg daily, twice). It's supposed to be for liver support. Anyway, isn't Anavar used for alcoholic hepatitis as well (someone mentioned it to me on this forum), so how can this be bad for the liver?

Is Clomid your sole PCT drug?

I read that there's really no "synergy" between using Nolva with Clomid. But Nolva with Aromasin seem better off.

Clomid is usually ran 50/50/25/25, I'm going to run an OTC anti estrogen/cortisol controller(erase) at 0/0/3/2/1 to help minimize rebound estrogen

Also that's a long time to be running an oral, hope you had some liver supports.

 

[-Guido-]

Use Nolva and Clomid. There is no synergy, but Nolva will prevent gyno and Clomid will jumpstart natural Test production.

 

[islander20]

I'd skip the nolva, it's a bit hepatotoxic...wouldn't it be better to wait and see if he will develop Gyno indicators first(sensitive nipples/pain in the nipple)? Then take it obviously...

 

[-Guido-]

I'd skip the nolva, it's a bit hepatotoxic...wouldn't it be better to wait and see if he will develop Gyno indicators first(sensitive nipples/pain in the nipple)? Then take it obviously...

Really? I did not know that...

The problem with waiting is that once it develops, it's there. Starting Nolva will hinder further breast tissue growth but he will be more prone to gyno during his next cycle and will have to run Letrozole to have a chance at getting rid of it which will fuck up his lipid profile and make him depressed and moody.

 

[ongos]

How could I develop gyno when I was using on cycle therapy (Anastrozole aka Arimidex) at 0.75 mg daily. The required dose can be from 0.50 to 1 mg. I kept it in the middle at 0.75 due to because I was not on a heavy long cycle. I never showed symptoms of gyno or gonadism. What's the dosages and length of taking these drugs? I read 4 weeks is sufficient considering I was on a short 8 week cycle that was not too oppressive.

Are you saying no PCT till I see symptoms? I know with Anavar not many had to use PCT, but I was also on Test Enanthate. I was using on cycle therapy, is PCT needed?

I'd skip the nolva, it's a bit hepatotoxic...wouldn't it be better to wait and see if he will develop Gyno indicators first(sensitive nipples/pain in the nipple)? Then take it obviously...

 

[ongos]

Letrozole will make a person depressed and moody? I read Clomid does too.

Really? I did not know that...

The problem with waiting is that once it develops, it's there. Starting Nolva will hinder further breast tissue growth but he will be more prone to gyno during his next cycle and will have to run Letrozole to have a chance at getting rid of it which will fuck up his lipid profile and make him depressed and moody.

 

[islander20]

4 weeks should be enough for PCT, the Gyno will come from rebound estrogen levels. It's not a guarantee that you will get Gyno, some people are more prone to it. I'm going to run Ease during my PCT to deal with this and keep cortisol levels under control. How much research have you done on your cycle? You should have sorted out your PCT long before you started your cycle....spend the night on some good forums and educate yourself

 

[ongos]

oh I've done my research on PCT long enough, but bro scientists from various forums all have their own conclusions. LOL. I was certain about Nolva and Clomid (these are SERMS) but then came across an article that Clomid is interchangeable with Nolva meaning I can use either or, so why use both? But looks like I'm back to want to use both again since I was told that Clomid brings back the testicles into function and Nolva is for gyno issues. I never had problems with both since I used an on cycle therapy, aromatase inhibtor or AI called Anastrozole (aka Arimidex). But for prevention purposes I guess I'll use both Clomid and Nolva. Do I use one in the morning and one at night for 4 weeks daily?

Nolva - 20mg daily
Clomid - 50mg daily

Are these dosages too high considering that my cycle was not too oppressive (8 week cycle) look at my starting thread for how my cycle was.

Note: I'll be using research chemical versions, not pill. I hope it's just as potent and safe. I used research chemical version of Anastrozole for my on cycle therapy.

What is Ease? I think I may have some cortisol issue due to the fat goes straight to my stomach considering that I'm lean everywhere else on my body. Is Ma Huang (aka Ephedra) recommended?

4 weeks should be enough for PCT, the Gyno will come from rebound estrogen levels. It's not a guarantee that you will get Gyno, some people are more prone to it. I'm going to run Ease during my PCT to deal with this and keep cortisol levels under control. How much research have you done on your cycle? You should have sorted out your PCT long before you started your cycle....spend the night on some good forums and educate yourself

 

[-Guido-]

I was certain about Nolva and Clomid (these are SERMS) but then came across an article that Clomid is interchangeable with Nolva meaning I can use either or, so why use both? But looks like I'm back to want to use both again since I was told that Clomid brings back the testicles into function and Nolva is for gyno issues. I never had problems with both since I used an on cycle therapy, aromatase inhibtor or AI called Anastrozole (aka Arimidex). But for prevention purposes I guess I'll use both Clomid and Nolva. Do I use one in the morning and one at night for 4 weeks daily?

Nolva - 20mg daily
Clomid - 50mg daily

Yeah, that's what I had said earlier. Take it all in the morning at once.

Leave the Ephedra alone. Get your diet and routine in check. You don't need it. You only gained 3-4 pounds on your cycle. Your issue is diet and routine, not cortisol.

 

[Genetic Freak]

Standard rule is Nolvadex 20mg ed for 3 weeks commencing 14 days after your last Enanthate injection. Thats applicable to a 500mg PW cycle of Test. You can use clomid at 50mg ed for first 10 days to help restore LH & the HPTA but its not necessary. Arimidex is usually doses @ 0.5mg EOD on cycle .....

 

[ongos]

Why 14 days after my last Test Enanthate injection? Wouldn't waiting that long might give enough time for problems to show? I came across an article that says 3 days after my last injection. Clomid for 10 days only? Why is it not necessary though? Was it because I was on post cycle therapy using Arimidex? The EOD use of Arimidex I might consider for my next cycle. I ended up using it every day at 0.75 mg. It was research chemical version so it's not quite 100% pure.

Someone told me about Letrozole for PCT but I'm thinking it's great while ON CYCLE, NOT POST CYCLE. Agree? It's an AI not a SERM. SERM is for PCT, AI is for on cycle therapy. Correct? All I re-searched is that Letrozole has less side effects than Clomid. But I think for PCT I'm going for Nolva and Clomid.

Standard rule is Nolvadex 20mg ed for 3 weeks commencing 14 days after your last Enanthate injection. Thats applicable to a 500mg PW cycle of Test. You can use clomid at 50mg ed for first 10 days to help restore LH & the HPTA but its not necessary. Arimidex is usually doses @ 0.5mg EOD on cycle .....

 

[Genetic Freak]

Why 14 days after my last Test Enanthate injection? Wouldn't waiting that long might give enough time for problems to show? I came across an article that says 3 days after my last injection. Clomid for 10 days only? Why is it not necessary though? Was it because I was on post cycle therapy using Arimidex? The EOD use of Arimidex I might consider for my next cycle. I ended up using it every day at 0.75 mg. It was research chemical version so it's not quite 100% pure.

Someone told me about Letrozole for PCT but I'm thinking it's great while ON CYCLE, NOT POST CYCLE. Agree? It's an AI not a SERM. SERM is for PCT, AI is for on cycle therapy. Correct? All I re-searched is that Letrozole has less side effects than Clomid. But I think for PCT I'm going for Nolva and Clomid.

Your Testosterone is on the Enanthate ester IE: it half-lives @ 5.25 days, so by waiting up to 10 days before PCT you are allowing more testosterone to be free from your system...

The key to effective Letro use in PCT or lump removal is to use Nolva or Arimidex after Letro cycle to avoid rebound from estrogen inhibition IE: Estrogen/Test ratio goes out of whack + Estrogen rebounds back in stronger amounts until the axis stabalizes..............
Letro is a very harsh Aromatise inhibiter it can knock out Estrogen by up to 98%, Your body does need some Estrogen.... therefore you're best sticking with Nolvadex....

 

[-Guido-]

The EOD use of Arimidex I might consider for my next cycle.

Don't fuck around with EOD use. If 0.75mg is to much a day for you lower the dose instead of switching to EOD. EOD will only insure you hormone levels remain destabilized.

 

[Genetic Freak]

Don't fuck around with EOD use. If 0.75mg is to much a day for you lower the dose instead of switching to EOD. EOD will only insure you hormone levels remain destabilized.

From my understanding you are on 500mg Test E + 100mg/day Anavar, and will be for 2 months before discontinuing and then starting PCT...... Are you aware Anavar doesn't aromatise, and only lightly impacts on your HPTA, as a bonus it suppresses SHBG freeing up more plasma testosterone... You can almost get away without any PCT on just Anavar alone.....
The only thing that will aromatise might be the 500mg Test-E, if at all.... thats dependant on the individual, you might, you might not...

With regards your use of Arimidex... Adex tends to reduce estrone as opposed to estradiol, even at high doses >2mg estradiol will only be slightly suppressed. This can be considered the bad estrogen. Its what gives peripheral symptoms of estrogen build up like water retention, gyno etc. So if you are on a strong aromatizable cycle I would suggest the use of Aromasin to control estrogen. (which You're NOT) Basically the conversion to estrone and estradiol is mediated by the same pathway but the substrate is different, testosterone is converted to estradiol where as estrone is converted from androstenedione. Using Adex only really effects the latter.
Running proviron would probably be more ideal IMO ........
More aromatizing compounds would be best suited to using Aromasin but bear in mind some aromatization is good for gains. I wouldn't stress too much about estrogen unless it is a particular issue for you (bp, water retention, gyno, etc.)

You might get away with just Nolvadex @ 20mg/day for 3 weeks 14 days after discontinuing the Test-E...................

 

[ongos]

Yeah my concern was regarding my use of test enanthate. I know anavar is weak and does not aromatize. I showed no bad side effect symptoms at all. When you say some aromatization is good for gains, that means the gains appear massive, and this is due to water retention, plus muscles of course, etc? If I was using Dianabol instead of Anavar, I would have had 20 pounds of gains by now instead of 10. LOL. I wanted my gains to be quality not just to appear massive. By the way, my size "large" t-shirts looks like a "medium" now.

I might be using Anavar alone for cutting before summer. I read it is a fast acting steroid. For whatever reason I felt stronger 30 minutes after ingesting. Maybe it's placebo effect or maybe the "rage" to start lifting was a combination of all AAS/HGH drugs in my system. But next time I know to take Anavar as a pre-workout steroid.

I mentioned as well about my HGH use, not sure how much you know about it. But I was told a 6 month cycle is standard, then 6 months off it.

Before I start my PCT, how many days off must I be from the on cycle therapy drug (Arimidex)? You said 14 days after my last Test Enanthate shot. I've been using Arimidex daily at 0.75 mg. So after my last Test Enanthate shot, I should still stay on the Arimidex all through 14 days then start the post cycle therapy drugs, and only then I should stop taking the Arimidex?

From my understanding you are on 500mg Test E + 100mg/day Anavar, and will be for 2 months before discontinuing and then starting PCT...... Are you aware Anavar doesn't aromatise, and only lightly impacts on your HPTA, as a bonus it suppresses SHBG freeing up more plasma testosterone... You can almost get away without any PCT on just Anavar alone.....
The only thing that will aromatise might be the 500mg Test-E, if at all.... thats dependant on the individual, you might, you might not...

With regards your use of Arimidex... Adex tends to reduce estrone as opposed to estradiol, even at high doses >2mg estradiol will only be slightly suppressed. This can be considered the bad estrogen. Its what gives peripheral symptoms of estrogen build up like water retention, gyno etc. So if you are on a strong aromatizable cycle I would suggest the use of Aromasin to control estrogen. (which You're NOT) Basically the conversion to estrone and estradiol is mediated by the same pathway but the substrate is different, testosterone is converted to estradiol where as estrone is converted from androstenedione. Using Adex only really effects the latter.
Running proviron would probably be more ideal IMO ........
More aromatizing compounds would be best suited to using Aromasin but bear in mind some aromatization is good for gains. I wouldn't stress too much about estrogen unless it is a particular issue for you (bp, water retention, gyno, etc.)

You might get away with just Nolvadex @ 20mg/day for 3 weeks 14 days after discontinuing the Test-E...................

 

[-Guido-]

Anavar is not a "pre-workout" steroid.

You are new to steroids. Oral only cycles aren't for you and I don't condone there use due to being inefficient and being toxic to the liver.

You gained 4 pounds on your cycle.

Start rethinking what you are doing.