Possible permanent damage after one-time meth/piperazines combo

Pwninator

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Apr 15, 2006
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Santa Cruz CA
Hey what's up everyone. I'd like to post about an issue that still concerns me, mainly because I have no idea by what mechanism it could have happened, so far the doctors I've brought it up to haven't had any ideas about it. I believe that a combination of two pills I ingested one night at a rave just a little over two years ago caused some lasting effects on my body, which are still noticeable to this day.

Here's a little write-up of the experience I had jotted down in some notes quite a while ago:

Now to tell about the night when the shit went down. I was just beginning to make new connections to purchase drugs at my university, and one of them had some pills to sell. We
were going to a rave downtown and I was excited about it, ‘coz it was the first event of its kind I had ever been to and I had been fascinated with the rave scene for a while. I had already tried a dose of molly at a party, but for some reason it didn’t hit me that hard and I was underwhelmed by that experience. But I experienced no ill effects on my health whatsoever afterwards. There was no comedown to speak of, and I had DEFINITELY felt it, it just wasn’t enough of a dose.

So this guy with the pills, let's call him Mike. He had two batches of pills, both picked up from Southern California. One was Blue Z's, the other was Orange Mercedes. I made
the impulsive decision to purchase one of each for the rave, as he told me he had done this combo before and had an enjoyable time. He even described psychedelic-like effects from
one of these pills - the Orange Mercedes one. Knowing that I would be too socially inhibited if I wasn't on "something" at this rave, I bought the pills hoping that they would allow me to lose all my fears and enjoy myself there. We hopped on a bus and headed downtown. Mike accompanied us and planned on also popping one of each pill. I popped the Blue Z on the way there. Info on pillreports indicates that this pill contained primarily methamphetamine and little or no MDMA at all. We arrived at the rave and it turned out it wasn’t all it was cracked up to be – it was mainly a bunch of fucking high school kids! About 45 min after consuming the Blue Z I popped the Orange Mercedes pill, the one that I believe really fucked me. Now, this one was indicated by pillreports to be a definite piperazine, and it was tested by someone with a test kit. Probably BZP and TFMPP.

I remember when I first started coming up – we were talking about leaving the rave ‘coz it was pretty lame honestly. The music wasn’t blowing me away by any means, and all of us were getting a bad vibe from it. We went outside to have a cig, and I was starting to feel pretty good at the time. Smoking the cig kicked it into overdrive – I felt fucking amazing. We went back in to the rave, preparing to leave, and all of a sudden I was smacked by an intense wave of nausea. I went to the bathroom, ready to puke, but it never came. The wave passed and I felt fine again. We left for the bus station and I felt relaxed and energized at the same time, my social inhibitions were gone and I was chatting up a storm with Mike, opening up to him about myself and my life. Sitting in front of the bus waiting to get on it, the warm air emanating from a vent on the side felt sooo good, I still remember.

We were on the bus heading back to campus, and then out of the blue another wave smacked me in the face. An uprising of fear and anxiety, not wanting to puke my guts out on the bus and become the center of attention, I signaled to my friends that we needed to get of the bus ASAP. We got off at the next stop, I was leaning over a bush ready once again to empty the contents of my stomach and then the wave passed by. My friends are rather irritated ‘coz we’re all outside in the cold, me with no jacket, without another bus coming for a while. I feel terrible about doing this to all of us, but what choice do we have now? So we started walking. I actually felt ok when we were walking, as long as we were moving I was all right, it seemed. But then a wave would hit me every now and then and I would have to stop and wait for the feeling to pass, I would feel tweaked out and sick to my stomach. We were walking through a residential neighborhood after midnight and Mike and I stopped to get some water from someone’s water spigot ‘coz we were both so fucking thirsty! We must have walked for an hour and a half or so, making our way towards campus. We made it to a 7-11 and stopped to buy some orange juice there. I thought I would feel relief being inside someplace warm, but a wave hit me while I was inside and this was the worst one yet. I felt like I was going to die, straight up. I thought I was going to collapse right there, and I thought of everything in my life that I had experienced, everything I was going to leave behind forever as I entered the Great Oblivion. I felt so sick and dizzy, my thoughts were scattered and dominated with anxiety and I truly thought a heart-attack was imminent or something. And then I went back outside, hoping that the cool air would provide some relief, and felt better once again.

Well, we finally caught a bus back to campus and we went to chill in someone’s room and smoke some hookah, which I had no desire to participate in. I was still feeling rather sick and not in that much of a mood to converse with the others. I slowly began to feel better (This was around 2 in the morning), and felt very relieved that the “waves” had subsided. I became very talkative and uninhibited again, chatting it up with someone that I previously hadn’t really opened up to much at all. I felt much more relaxed and at ease, but I was pissing like a fucking race horse! Like every 20 min, run to the bathroom and drain my body of all its precious fluids… At 4:30 in the morning, my friends were retiring for the night, and I was still wide awake. I tried to get my friend to stay awake and talk with me but he was exhausted. I walked back to my room, and lay in my bed wide awake ‘til morning. I’m guessing that the reason why I began to feel better throughout the early hours of the morning was that the piperazine pill was wearing off and I was left with the meth active in my system, since I now know that methamphetamine can last at least 12 hours or so when consumed orally.

The comedown was terrible. Most of the next day, my heart was STILL beating fast and hard and my pupils were still huge. I felt like utter shit. Drained of energy, no motivation, no appetite. I went to sleep around 6:30 or 7 that day and thankfully was able to sleep a loooong time that night. The next day, my heart was still beating a little fast! The next few days I began to slowly feel better and regain my appetite, but I would say I was feeling out of sorts for at least a week after the experience. I remember at the time I was worried about a slight numbness throughout this body and I couldn’t be sure if it was all in my head or not but it seemed to gradually subside after the experience. But one thing did NOT subside: problems with a loss of sensation in my extremities and my hands and feet becoming cold very easily. This is the problem that’s still with me now.

It’s a feeling of numbness in my hands and feet that becomes more pronounced the more cold they become. I’m more vulnerable to cold weather than I used to be, and my socks will become soaked with sweat and my fingertips will also become very moist when they get cold. Caffeine and cigarettes both aggravate this, which I never used to notice at all. Now, sometimes I’ll smoke a stoge and my hands will become freezing cold and numb, which makes sense ‘coz they’re both vasoconstrictors which indicates that it may be something to do with my circulation. That’s more reassuring to me than thinking that maybe there’s some neurological damage caused by my brain being over-stimulated that night or something… I first noticed something was wrong when I was playing guitar

I never finished writing that, that's why it ends abruptly. So pretty much, what I still notice is there does seem to be a little less sensation in my hands than there should be, but the thing is, when they're cold it's aggravated, so when they're not cold it's hard to tell if it's all in my mind or not. And part of the problem is that they become cold easily. The reason why I am fairly convinced that this incident caused this is that I definitely noticed something was wrong shortly after the incident, and also some sexual issues. The diminished sensation is also noticable in my penis, and sometimes obtaining and maintaining erections isn't easy. I never used to have a problem with this at all. My body's anxiety response is somewhat extreme and I was recently put on some medications for anxiety. The anxiety aggravates this condition and anxiolytics noticably relieve the cold-hands thing. For some reason consuming alcohol can aggravate the condition for days after drinking, causing more numbness and cold feelings.

One thing that aggravated it worse than anything else was LSD. Several times on while on acid I actually had the sensation that someone was squeezing their hand around my wrist constricting all the blood flow to my hands, they felt so cold and it was quite an uncomfortable feeling while tripping. LSD has vasoconstrictive effects so this is unsurprising. Consuming a small amount of cocaine also caused a similar, less severe reaction. This is one reason why I'm aversive to stimulants, but I always have been because of a heart condition called WPW I have. My body can tolerate pure MDMA pretty well since it's not a powerful stimulant.

Connecting all the dots together, I believe that whatever changes to my body may have taken place after that experience with the pills may have resulted in a heightened reaction to the vasoconstrictive effects of drugs and natural bodily functions (mainly the fight-or-flight anxiety response) and possibly some minor circulatory or neurological damage. It's certainly not severe, but it is quite bothersome some times. In conclusion, I advise everyone to thoroughly research the pills you plan to ingest before taking them, so you have a good idea of what they contain and that way you can avoid taking a terrible combination of drugs like the one I had that night. I mean shit man, two highly stimulating drugs taken together? That's about the worst possible combination of drugs I could have put into my body. I am lucky I didn't end up in the hospital that night.

Self-acceptance is tough, it really is. Accepting myself for the way that I am, coming to terms with the fact that there's no going back and changing what I did to myself. And I mean, it could be quite worse (like the permanent damage a guy named Unlucky described on this forum which he had from a combo of stimulants he took one night) but I still dwell on it. It discourages me from practicing guitar sometimes, because it's hard to play when my hands are cold. And so many things aggravate it, like smoking weed, caffeine, cigarettes... Not that I should be smoking anyway, heh.

Oh, and let me throw one more thing out there I forgot to add. I'm currently in outpatient treatment for opiate addiction. My usage culminated in trying out the needle (shooting dilaudid) and I ended up having a nervous breakdown, feeling severely depressed and having to leave school shortly after the winter quarter started this year.
 
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Dude i couldn't read through everything but i think there may be a possibility. Something similar happened to me to around 2 years ago. This is the only rave i had taken a cocktail of pills at, it's usually always the same pill. I ended up taking 3 pills, 1 methamphetamine pipe combo, 1 piperzine mdma combo, and 1 strong mdma pill. I had an enjoyable first half of the night, the second night was pure hell with every bad side effect you can imagine. Basically i thought i was going to die, but i rode it out. It seems ever since that night my anxiety levels have permanently increased, i know there are other factors involved but i think this is a big one. My mood is always worse, which could have been from the other mdma experiences but it seems that night really messed me up. A lot of the problems had cleared up but i was dealing with depersonalization and derealization for a long while. Something about me not able to understand my surrounding at times, even if it is at home or a class room. I will get this sudden bout of feeling like impending doom all around, and just looking things in an odd manner. I can't explain it but it happens randomly and to this day once in a while it will happen but was much worse then. I would like to hear responses as i can't type more atm, but the pipe meth combo seems to be able to leave some nasty side effects that seem to stay for ages.
 
In response to F1n1shed:

Yeah, I believe that those two substances, methamphetamine and BZP (or whatever common recreational piperazines are found in pills) synergize in a truly nasty way and become more dangerous to the body than either of the two consumed alone. I don't think this experience worsened my anxiety, I've always been afflicted with anxiety and just as of more recently I've taken steps to get it under control. I'm taking an SSRI (Lexapro) now, and also Lyrica, four 100 mg capsules a day. It has helped put a damper on the anxiety to some extent. The most bothersome anxiety-related symptom for me is frequent urination. Social anxiety is the main issue for me, and it's part of why I was so drawn to opiates. Not only did they bring upon me such a serene state of peace and tranquility, they allowed all the defensive barriers my mind erects to collapse and allow me to converse with people so easily. In essence they enabled me to become the person I wanted to be, I felt like I could truly be "myself" while on opiates.

I would like to hear from anyone that has consumed a meth + piperazine combo, to hear if they had any lasing aftereffects from the experience.
 
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Sorry to hear you have had such a long recovery.

A strong word of advice....STOP using all psychedelic drugs!
At least for another two years, bro.

I know this simple advice seems a little too late....BUT many former MDMA users describe anxiety, depression, and anehdonia that last for one to two years. I'm four months into recovery and have spent a lot of time researching the recovery process.

Mdma is toxic, especially if you used it often, BUT the brain can make a significant recovery from it.....IF you let it alone.
Continuing to do drugs like more E or LSD is a BAD idea....it is the reason you have not come back to Earth yet.

Yes, the pipe may have been what really fucked you up....but in animal trials it has been shown that combing METH with MDMA is highly toxic. The meth may have been the culprit. You will never really know. For me, i suspect taking 4 benedryl 2 days after my roll. Of course I rolled two weekends in a row, but I really think the benedryl was the straw on the fucking camel's back!

And your hands getting sweaty and numb.....I had the same thing one night on mushrooms....really bad trip, thought I might die. My hands and feet were very cold and very numb. Not fun, but it passed.

Mushrooms, LSD, and MDMA are all serotonin agents, sir. Lay off of the them for a LONG time. If you dont, you will set yourself back BIG time.

Also, understand that some people really ARE more sensitive to serotonin issues than others.
How long did you do Mdma before this happened to you?
My guess is that you had already knocked down a few branches of the serotonin network in your brain. You were set up for trouble.
Then, during your CRUCIAL recovery period....you do LSD?

Not a great plan, sir.
The brain has a remarkable plasticity to it, but there are limits.

Allow your brain to heal.
If you can't abstain from everything, stick to the opiates and moderate alcohol use. Those seem to be fine for most people recovering from serotonergic damage.
Weed can be a problem for many, however. SSRI anti-depressants will NOT help in the long run...they may worsen the problem and slow down the healing process. It is a way of escaping the inevitable.

I have had a major problem feeling my dick too, buddy. And the bottoms of my feet have been a little numb, but after four months of exercise and taking fish oil...my brain is well on the way to recovery.

I also recommend tumeric, vitamins, and ibuprofen.
Want a miracle drug? It's called piracetam. It's cheap and you don't need a prescription. It makes the cell membranes in your brain and intestines more permeable. It brings great relief to the anxiety and sense of numbness, especially below the belt. But don't overuse it.
I take tiny doses, like a quarter of a pill twice a day.
After two or three days I feel amazing. After two to three weeks I stop taking it, because it can become too stimulating. It causes its own unique brand of anxiety, but it gets the neurotransmitters flowing! Almost feel like rolling.....and this drug is VERY safe. Research it.

Remember, your brain can recover, but not if you keep abusing the serotonin pathways. This is a remarkably complex network of nerves designed primarily to facilitate digestion. 95% of your serotonin is in your gut, not your brain.
What you are feeling is the re-wiring of the brain by the intestines.

There is a lot of research suggesting some parts of the brain recover well, while others (frontal lobes and visual cortex, for example) do NOT. However, most ex MDMA abusers do describe themselves as being recovered if they abstain for one to two years.

Some say it takes longer, but most make it back to reality in that time frame. The key, is to lay off the psychedelics.

As hard as it is to hear, two years is hardly permanent. Believe me, I thought it was 'permanent' many times in the last four months. Now I know that was wrong.

Some damage will be permanent, but the brain will learn to deal with it. Eventually you will feel that the truly permanent changes are easier to tolerate. But the more you flog your brain, the more 'permanent' damage will be inflicted...and the longer the adaptation will take.

Get the fish oil and piracetam. And exercise. Daily.
It's the only way to speed up the long process ahead of you.

Keep your chin up.
Good luck, buddy.
 
Yes i totally agree with the first bad comedown. I am a huge stoner, and during the time where i was rolling every 2 months or so i would still be smoking a ton of weed in between. This would bring out anxiety attacks at random times, and i believe slowed my recovery process by a ton. My last roll was 2 + months ago and i have decided that i am no longer going to drop MDMA, or if i do it'll be like once a year. The most important factor is staying off MDMA, you can take supplements to aid recovery but trust me it takes such a long time for them to make noticeable change. You must, must stay off MDMA as dropping any dose will restart the process. I have always known that MDMA was a damaging drug, but now i know the process by which it is so damaging. This stuff cleaves your serotonin axon terminals and they usually do not come back, if they do it takes ages for them to re route. When and if they finally do re route they form in the wrong areas sometimes and they re grow abnormally. The axon terminal is such an important part of the cell, it is where the transporters carry down the neurotransmitters and a dendrite of another cell will catch them with the receptors. Just don't give up i'm here with you dude, it seems we had pretty close incidents happen at around the same time. I have noticed some recovery, but the best advice i can give is stay off MDMA. I still use a lot of other drugs which haven't seemed to give me problems, opiates in moderation are great imo they are non toxic just don't become addicted.
 
In response to First Bad Comedown:

I really appreciate your advice. But let me explain my usage a little more, as I don't have a long history of MDMA or psychedelic usage. Before this incident, which happened in the month of January two years ago, I had only taken MDMA once and it was about a 100 mg dose. I felt it somewhat but it wasn't very strong. I had never taken ANY pills (yes, those were the first E pills I took in my life, talk about a terrible introduction to pills), and the only psychedelic I had used was mushrooms, once. I have no idea if the possible damage that took place was serotonergic, I don't know how much serotonin is involved in sensation and controlling blood flow to extremities.

Ever since the experience, I haven't taken any more E pills. I've taken MDMA in pure molly form three times, and all three were positive experiences and I didn't experience depressive comedowns afterwards. I've taken LSD three times as well since, and the first two were great trips, the third and most recent one was almost a disaster, until I took some hydrocodone to relax myself. After that it was managable. For the past couple years or so I've smoked weed pretty much daily, and I believe it that the daily usage has been detrimental to me. It worsens my anxiety, makes me feel more socially "distant" and puts my head in a fog and diminishes my cognitive abilities and motivation. However due to my addictive personality it's so easy for me to fall into smoking daily if I have a sufficient supply or others around me are smoking - which at school they usually are.

I have no desire to touch psychedelics until I can get my life more in order, so I can have as anxiety-free of a trip as possible. I may touch MDMA in the future, but I can't use it while I'm on an SSRI so it won't be for a while. I must say, I think the Lexapro is actually helping a lot. I've been in a really positive mood lately, and I just upped the dose from 10 to 20 mg a day about two weeks ago. It helps with the problem of premature ejaculation I've had which has made my orgasms a lot better, but makes it more difficult to become aroused. I have noticed increased feelings of motivation and empathy towards others as well. I actually believe that part of my depression and anxiety may have been related to a serotonin deficiency BUT I don't think that's the whole picture. I know that dopamine, norepinephrine, and endorphin (opiod-receptor related) levels all play a big role as well in regulating moods.

Opiods, due to my addiction to them I need to avoid. But they call me back every day. I loved them so much. I know I will have to live with these cravings for a long time to come. I am actually quite interested in piracetam, mainly due to the supposed nootropic properties it has - its ability to improve cognitive abilities. I have been lazy with exercise but I am going to motivate myself to pick it up again, my goal is to run twice every day.

In response to F1n1shed:

I am very happy to hear of the significant progress you've made in your own recovery! I hope you continue on that path to achieve even greater well-being. I have always used MDMA sparingly in the past so my serotonin levels would have time to replenish after each usage and due to the SSRI I'm on I don't expect to use it again for a long time.

I haven't used opiates in two months now, the longest I've been off them in a long time. I've smoked some weed, and about three weeks ago began to fall back into daily usage. For the past week however, since I ran out of my last sack, I've cut that out again. It really does contribute to my anxiety, that's why I strongly believe I need to keep my weed usage in check. It's not an easy thing to do though, if I have it around.
 
Pwninator,

Glad to hear back from you.

I can see that you are still wanting to get into specifics about what happened. I understand that all too well. I can join you in claiming to have relatively less drug experience than others.

First, allow me to say that I am sorry your problem arrived after such limited drug exposure. I have only consumed about 30 tabs, most in the last two years. So I consider myself a 'moderate' user that is paying a 'heavy' price. It looks as thought you have me beat on this one.

I thought I was taking 'normal' dose tabs. After the fact they turned out to be 250mg a piece! Which has become quite normal lately...the days of 100mg doses may be gone. So all users need to be aware of this danger. I took 2-3 tabs each night, six days apart. I thought I was 'moderate' enough, but after doing the math, I realize I was taking about 600mg each night, a hefty dose....and not enough spacing!

My tabs were pure, also. (sent for professional testing)

Please realize that you cannot truly know that you took 100mg the first time, or any subsequent time, unless you had a pharmacy grade scale with you.

That is an assumption that you might want to let go of.
If you didn't roll very hard, maybe it was a low dose. Maybe it wasn't pure. Regardless, pure MDMA is risky on its own. Combining it with another serotonin agent, like a piperazine, increases this risk....in ways we do not understand. For me, taking too much benedryl just a few days after my roll, seemed to be enough to throw me over that horrid line. If 4 benedryl 2 days after a roll can fuck me up this bad, then perhaps taking the pipe with your e is ALL it took.

Most likely, it was the combination that got you. Unless you are just highly susceptible to MDMA toxicity or you are forgetting something...

BUT, what happened to you on that day does not really explain why you find yourself here more than two years later.

So, why have you not recovered within two years, when truly 'heavy' users describe a 1-2 year recovery period??

You already know the answer, bro.
But just in case you need me to point it out...

"Ever since the experience, I haven't taken any more E pills. I've taken MDMA in pure molly form three times, and all three were positive experiences and I didn't experience depressive comedowns afterwards. I've taken LSD three times as well since, and the first two were great trips, the third and most recent one was almost a disaster"

Ok. First, molly is NOT a safe form of MDMA.
Pure MDMA comes in powder or tablet form, and it is risky either way! Yes, molly is less likely to be adulterated, but it does not qualify as a SAFE form of the drug.

Second, three times??

Whoah. There's your fucking problem, bro.
It sounds like you did not accept the fact that you were in major recovery. Peer pressure or something convinced you to keep rolling, even though you felt altered since the first experience.
Why?

Its a good thing that you didn't have complete meltdowns after these three rolls, but that does not mean you weren't set back. In fact, I am certain that you were. I am doing pretty well lately, but I KNOW that if I rolled anytime soon.....all of this progress I have made would be GONE. Regardless of how good the next roll felt.

LSD. Fun shit, isn't it?
And its not even a neuro-toxin like MDMA!
Does that mean it was safe? What do you think?

LSD is a powerful serotonin agent as well, and former acid users have been known to develop psychosis after its use. Acid does seem to be much safer in general, i.e. no deaths. BUT, there are studies showing long-term changes in visual perception in these people. For example, I have a friend who is seeing tracers long after her last acid trip. She sees them all day and night. Her father who is nearly 50, claims to STILL have tracers and ringing in his ears from his youthful LSD usage. However, he seems to tolerate this as part of life. It is documented that some LSD users have permanent color blindness, too! Remember, that visual cortex is extremely complex and vulnerable...I am willing to bet you still have visual distortions or snow or tracers. Right?

The third LSD trip was a disaster?
Of course it was. How many times do you think you can trip when you already feel altered?

I am not trying to sound judgmental. I know it doesn't change anything for you. In fact, you have my sympathy.
But please, open your eyes and see what is obvious to others:
Your continued use of these drugs has prevented you from making a meaningful recovery. Period.

Many former MDMA or psychedelic users have given up smoking pot willingly! That is an amazing fact, considering the group we are talking about. There is a good reason they do this....their brain is telling them to.

One of my worst panic attacks after the first two weeks was because I smoked a bowl. I literally felt like I was back on day one.

Weed increases serotonin in the brain, which is a cause of anxiety. It also activates digestion, which is the real cause of anxiety. Your intestines are in control here, not you.

There is no such thing as a serotonin deficiency!
Please, PLEASE stop the SSRI. Fuck your doctor....you are only interfering with the natural process. The fact that it makes you feel better is a clear indication that you have serotonergic damage. You have a type of structural damage, not a chemical imbalance. The brain is slowly drilling new holes - opening new receptors. It does NOT need you to plug up the existing deficit with false serotonin so you FEEL better. Let your brain make progress without interference.

The anxiety and detachment you have been feeling are a result of your intestines re-wiring themselves into your brain. This is a long, slow process. The SSRI is a short cut that is likely preventing 'up-regulation' of your serotonin receptors. In order for this up-regulation to occur, you must endure the dullness and suffering that is your life. No more rolling, tripping, or medicine from the doctors.

The SSRI side effects on your ability to feel desire may last MUCH longer than you think, bro. Listen to me - look up post SSRI sexual dysfunction. Look at some of the sad fuckers that feel NO sensation or desire for YEARS after they stop taking the medication! It is way fucked up. The preventing of ejaculation you are feeling may be nice now, but it is NOT normal. It is a sign of a modified system. You have already modified this system enough, IMO. High levels of oxytocin due to the SSRI allow this modification in ejaculation to happen. They notice it in animal studies, too. It can also lead to permanent problems with ejaculation! Your lack of 'desire' should be very alarming for you. It will get worse and when you stop it won't return for a long time. Quit the damn SSRI NOW, before its too fucking late. It will NOT help you in the long run. MANY others on BL give the same advice.

You want to cheat your way out?
Get the piracetam. It is awesome and won't fuck up your recovery. Exercise, and speed up your metabolism. This is like skipping days.

Opiates are awesome and easily tolerated, but very addictive. Withdrawal is not as bad as MDMA toxicity, but it still sucks. Watch the opiate use.

Occasional pot smoking is fine, if you can tolerate it. Consider it a good sign if you can, but it will interfere as well.
Beer is great. No complaints about beer.

Count down the months since your last LSD trip.
When you get to one year, realize that is only 12 months - not long in brain recovery time. In another two years, without further abuse, you should feel fine. Including your hands and feet.

Good luck.
Take care of yourself, better than you ever did before.
Now is the time.
 
First Bad Comedown:

Thanks a lot for another very thorough response. This is the first time I've ever posted about this issue on a forum and I'm glad to get some valuable input.

The first time I took MDMA, it was from a very verifiable source. Ok, I'll even further than that and say that it was actually from the person that synthesized it. That was about two months before the experience in which I took the two pills: the Blue Z pill that had meth and maybe some MDMA in it and the other one which was undoubledly a piperazine pill. It was since that hellish night that I've noticed the issues I've described. I believe you now that the damage may very well have been serotonergic. I read this:

Serotonin is found in platelets, the blood cells that clump together to close wounds, and it helps them do this important job. It also has complex roles in regulating blood flow to the brain, heart, and gastrointestinal tract. It regulates blood vessel elasticity and can act as either a vasodilator (causing vessels to expand) or a vasoconstrictor (causing vessels to narrow), depending on where and when it is released.

Because of its complex action in controlling blood flow and blood pressure, serotonin abnormalities are also thought to have a role in a number of other cardiovascular conditions, including some forms of hypertension (high blood pressure). These include peripheral vascular diseases, which are circulatory problems involving the blood vessels in the extremities, the hands and feet, and sometimes the lower legs as well. One of these, Raynaud's disease, is characterized by numbness, discoloration, and pain in the fingers or toes on exposure to cold. Although it is called a disease, it usually does not require treatment, though it can sometimes interfere with activities. Serotonin appears to be involved in some forms of hypertension (high blood pressure). Ketanserin, a serotonin-active drug that acts to lower serotonin availability, has been used to lower blood pressure.

I don't have BAD circulation issues now (like Raynaud's), but it aggravates that existing slight numbness that always seems to be there. I believe you that taking serotonergic drugs since the incident may have set back my recovery and I will avoid them for a long time to come.

It is interesting that you said that you predicted I would have some visual distortions from my LSD use. I sometimes notice very slight tracers, but it's something I usually have to look for to really notice it. The reason my third trip started to go very awry was because it was more potent than any acid I had ever had before and I wasn't fully prepared for the intensity of it. The vicodins dulled it down a lot. It didn't help that I was in a bad place in my life at the time.

I've taken an SSRI before in the past (Started July 2009 ended December 2009) and a couple weeks after discontinuing it, I entered a depressive phase. But I didn't get the bad withdrawal symptoms some have described such as the "brain zaps". I was VERY hesitant about trying it again but decided to, mainly because I was tired of having my anxiety control my life. Also, since I'm already up to a higher dose than I had taken the last time I was on it, I'm afraid coming off it this time will be even harder. I'm not exactly at a time now when I want to deal with that since there's already a lot of other shit going on. To be honest I'd really rather not be taking it but I'm kind of stuck with it for the time being and I've certainly been enjoying the positive moods I've had lately. I haven't been smoking weed very much at all and I've noticed before in the past that smoking daily really contributes to depression (and I've had other daily user friends say the same) so that is probably contributing to my improved mood as well. Edit: I forgot to add that the crushing of the sex drive is one of the most depressing things about being on the SSRI. The same thing happened the last time I was on it and that was part of why I discontinued it.

The biggest reason why I am bothered by these issues is I feel they hinder my musical instrument (mainly guitar and keyboard) playing ability. I feel dedicated to doing what I can to assist my brain in repairing any damage that may have taken place. I believe two of the most important things for me to do at this point are limit my weed consumption and keep up the exercise.
 
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Very good, sir.

I'm glad you see the reasoning behind my advice. It makes all the typing worth it for me!

You found a great description about bloodflow to the extremities. Good job. I remember the night of my bad mushroom trip. I took a large dose and had nothing in my intestines to slow it down. And boy....did I pay. My hands and feet were ice cold, dripping with sweat, and had pins and needles to the point of severe pain. That is how I knew your issue had to do with serotonin toxicity.

I'm glad your tracers are easily ignored. Many are not so lucky. By the way - it is hard to know if the dose you took was really that much stronger or if you were simply more sensitive that night. Compared to other drugs, LSD requires VERY small doses (50 micrograms) to work. Only 1 microgram may actually reach the brain! Very special molecule indeed...

I hope you continue the music! There is evidence that playing an instrument protects against certain types of age-related cognitive decline, i.e. neurological damage. No matter what, even if you suck at it, force your brain to make those notes happen. Don't worry about sounding like you used to - just force it. This will stimulate regions of the brain that are not activated any other way! If it is hard to do, consider that a sign that doing it anyway will cause progress to occur.

And the exercise? Get back to it. Get that blood pumping.
I have often felt that my exercise routine helps blood reach parts of my brain that would have taken WEEKS longer to achieve otherwise! I think I have saved myself a good 25% or more in recovery time. Think about those blood vessels in your legs. Every hour your heart is pumping is another hour they have more blood to work with. And if an 'hour' is too much, fine. Honestly, my work out is usually only 20 minutes. But I do it everyday. Set a realistic goal, and stick to it. The number one mistake most people make, and the reason that most do not exercise at ALL, is they set the damn bar too high! Just do what you can and sit down. Then repeat the next day. After ONE week, I guarantee
you won't have to force it any longer.

One more rant, then I'm done.
I know you don't want to hear this from me again, so I encourage you to look around bluelight. You will find MANY other recovered MDMA users say the same thing.

You are NOT 'stuck' with the SSRI. But I understand why you feel that way.
The SSRI is putting an external compound into your brain to plug up some of the receptors. This WILL slow down recovery.
You have made structural modifications to the brain and they cannot be fixed this way. In fact, your brain knows what it is doing even though it is torturing you. The only way to up-regulate new receptors is to live a dull and anxiety ridden life.

Oh wait....no its NOT. I've already suggested a cheat - remember?
The PIRACETAM. Get it. It makes your pre-existing serotonin more 'available'. It is using your natural production! And YES, it feels AWESOME when I take it. I don't just feel a little better, i feel amazing. I cry fucking tears of joy on that stuff. Then I shit better and I want to fuck. How much more plain can I be?

The piracetam is VERY affective and lots of us recommend it. It is the best way to get through recovery. I recommend taking small doses and cycling on and off it for 3-4 weeks at a time. When you are on it, you will feel even better than you do now with that SSRI crap. Your depression will evaporate and your dick will still work. It will work overtime, actually. My semen production is through the roof some days! I'm willing to bet your hands and feet will also feel better!

Trust me and everyone else here more than your doctor. The SSRI will only hurt you in the long run. I am also concerned that it will modify the healing process in permanent ways. I do not have this concern with the piracetam. I have cycled on and off it three times already, and each time I can feel I'm a little closer to 'normal'. This drug does not seem to slow down my recovery at all. It may be speeding it up! But it definitely makes me feel better!

Just think about your dick, man. If this were really helping you heal, it wouldn't shut that off.

I can only say it so many ways. In the end, it is your decision. I hope you make the right one.

Keep your chin up.
Good luck, bro.
 
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