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police

SillyAlien said:
ClubbinGuido, your argument is flawed and anger misplaced in that it is not the police who are "ruining a bunch of peoples lives over being high or having drugs", but the laws of the land. The job of the police is to uphold that law. If you don't agree with the message, shooting the messenger is not the solution.
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SillyAlien, cops are not messengers. They're the ones who decide to use violence (or the threat of violence, which is nearly as bad as actual violence when it leads to incarceration) to force people to comply with the law. Just as juries have the legal right and moral imperative to use the power of jury nullification to find people guilty of immoral crimes to be "not guilty", police officers have a moral imperative to use their power of selective enforcement to leave good people alone. Their role in society should still be to "protect and serve", not "enforce the law". They're just savage barbarians at this point, if they enforce the law without concern for the ethics implications of their violent (or violence-threatening) actions.

Just as the soldiers and police in Nazi Germany were war criminals for "upholding the law" and "just doing their job", most police officers are criminal thugs just as deserving of public contempt or termination of employment. They have no moral compass if they can live with themselves for upholding the ridiculous laws that have been passed in this country.
 
Coolio, the argument (or implication, at least) was that all cops are crap. My response was that the entire group should not be judged on the basis of misdeeds of a rogue few.

Your Nazi argument doesn't fly either. My suggestion was to take on the law, not the messenger. Guess what happened to the law in the case of Nazis? Gone.
They have no moral compass if they can live with themselves for upholding the ridiculous laws that have been passed in this country.
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Just because *you* cannot or are unwilling to change a law is not enough reason to lay the blame on the police, who are there simply to uphold it, by peaceful means most times, I might add. Have you had the chance to travel about and compare police practice in different cities, states and countries, or are you drawing conclusions from the narrow focus group of your own neighbourhood?
 
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SillyAlien said:
Coolio, the argument (or implication, at least) was that all cops are crap. My response was that the entire group should not be judged on the basis of misdeeds of a rogue few.

Your Nazi argument doesn't fly either. My suggestion was to take on the law, not the messenger. Guess what happened to the law in the case of Nazis? Gone.

Just because *you* cannot or are unwilling to change a law is not enough reason to lay the blame on the police, who are there simply to uphold it, by peaceful means most times, I might add. Have you had the chance to travel about and compare police practice in different cities, states and countries, or are you drawing conclusions from the narrow focus group of your own neighbourhood?
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How is it someone my/our fault that police do wrong? Im not taking responsibility for their actions, no way. I dont want this system, i dont want this law.
 
Anyone who enforces drug laws or writes speeding tickets is a criminal thug. That's what most cops spend most of their time doing, so....
 
Coolio said:
Anyone who enforces drug laws or writes speeding tickets is a criminal thug. That's what most cops spend most of their time doing, so....
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No, actually, anyone who breaks those laws is an alleged criminal until proven guilty. That's the law. Simply repeating that it is not will not make it so. Want it to disappear? Do something proactive to change it, don't just deny its existence.
 
Anyone who breaks an unjust law is a patriot and a hero, not a criminal. The criminals enforce those unjust laws.
 
http://db.state.ma.us/msp/select.asp - just one US state, Massachusetts. Look through the arrest statistics for the different sized cities. Almost all of them have more drug and DUI arrests than violent and property crime arrests combined.

http://www.trafficticketsecrets.com/speeding-ticket-facts.html

Over 100,000 speeding tickets (that's JUST speeding, not other victimless traffic violations) are issued every day in the United States. 1 out of every 6 drivers are issued speeding tickets each year.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0118/p09s01-coop.html

"Part of the answer must involve drug law enforcement - victimless offenses that aren't reported to the police or included as FBI Index Crimes. Instead of arresting suspects for burglaries and other serious reported crimes, cops today spend much of their energy going after illegal drugs. Their arrest rate for drug possession (especially marijuana) has shot up more than 500 times from what it was in 1965."

FIVE HUNDRED TIMES.

It's not easy to find statistics or reports that are specific enough to give an accurate picture of what US police spend their time on, but based on the quickest survey of statistics found on Google it's obvious that almost all of law enforcement's time is spent arresting and ticketing people for victimless crimes. Read that last article... the "clearance rate", or the rate at which police make arrests for reported violent/property crimes, has been dropping over time.


I don't know how things are in Europe, but here the police do very little to help protect citizens against violence and theft and are often unable to figure out who is committing the majority of these crimes. There's no money to be made for the police departments in solving real crimes. Victimless crimes are always associated with revenue generation (tickets) and property seizures (vehicles, houses and land, cash, guns) so these have become almost the only thing police spend their time investigating.
 
Coolio said:
Anyone who breaks an unjust law is a patriot and a hero, not a criminal. The criminals enforce those unjust laws.
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But who's to say a law is unjust? You...well obviously:\
How come you're so sure that YOU'RE right and THEY'RE wrong?
And what law(s) are you even talking about? Surely you can't think every signle law ever made is unjust.
 
I think every law that punishes people for victimless crimes is unjust. Whether it's drug possession, drug sales, DUI, minor in possession of alcohol, public intoxication, trespassing, curfew violation, anti-gang laws, graffiti, gambling, prostitution, evading taxes on moral grounds, going AWOL, protesting in public places, disobeying unreasonable orders from police, refusing to pay child support, or any of the other myriad crimes that make up the vast, vast majority of investigations, arrests, and prosecutions.

'Justice' is a subjective term, and of course I'm the one to say what's unjust because it's just my opinion. Care to explain why any of the victimless crimes I just listed should be illegal and why we should allow cops to fuck up the lives of the people guilty of committing them as well as fucking up the lives of their families?
 
I'm sorry, but I just don't see some of those as "victimless crimes". DUI for example can and has caused many many deaths in the past. Although I suppose I should ask you which substane you're talking about when you say "DUI", since there are (obviously) a wide range of substances one can be "under the influence" of.

What comes to my mind when I hear DUI is alcohol of course. However I realize you might be talking about some other substance.

I'm not saying cops are perfect, nor am I saying they should be above the law, but when a person breaks the law they should pay the consequenses. The cops may be "fucking up" that persons life because by breaking a law, they might have "fucked up" someone elses. Are you saying civilians have the right to fuck up people lives but not police officers just because they're police officers?
 
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Coolio said:
http://www.trafficticketsecrets.com/speeding-ticket-facts.html

Over 100,000 speeding tickets (that's JUST speeding, not other victimless traffic violations) are issued every day in the United States. 1 out of every 6 drivers are issued speeding tickets each year.
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the arithmetic on that site is laughably flawed. please tell me you don't read something like that and just believe it with no question?

hmmm. that website wouldn't, perhaps, stand to market its product more effectively by exaggerating ticket numbers and insurance raises would it? surely not...

:\

alasdair
 
to be able to think outside the box you have to be outside the box. nuff said.

What kinds of cultures have police? The idea of police is unfathomable to any truly egalitarian society.
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^
"Being" outside the box should be an occasional exercise, not a way of life. Thinking outside the box, on the other hand, could be as frequent as required. The former is in no way a prerequisite for the latter to take place.
 
no see i was wondering why you didnt get it, and thats the reason buuuuddy.
 
alasdairm I don't have the patience to dig through hundreds of pages of statistics to find the good stuff.

delta_9, DUI is a victimless crime. Nobody is hurt. Any crime where you're punished because your behavior "MIGHT" lead to increased chances of harming someone, but nobody was actually harmed, is a victimless crime. If you're 0.3% BAC, yet you make it home safely then who was the victim?

They already have laws against vehicular manslaughter or assault with a deadly weapon to cover the eventuality that you hurt someone while drunk. Why not stick to enforcing those, and leave people alone who take potentially deadly risks but don't cause any actual harm to any actual victims?

I'm saying civilians have the right to risk fucking up someone's life, just as a police officer does. Until that risk becomes a real instance of damage to someone's person or their property, then it's not a real crime and punishing people for it is inhumanly cruel and twisted.
 
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