Police Brutality Thread

[dalpat077]

I wonder if tallying the whole white vs black everything in statistics is creating a part of the problem here.

I think it is part of the problem (although not just here on the forums i.e. not sure if you were speaking about the forums or generally).

It depends though. On the one hand: these statistics could be useful in pinpointing other issues. On the other hand: they're very handy for groups of people or organizations or media outlets or politicians to push a narrative of their choosing. The irony in the statistics cited here though are that in desperately trying to prove that law enforcement in America is offing black people in record numbers vs. any other race or ethnicity: they're shooting themselves in the foot and proving the total opposite.

I dunno how many years ago the change happened with describing words here happened but aboriginal or white etc aren't used often or at all in general news, caucasian or dark skin is when describing perps or suspects.


Is it really necessary to even comment on the race of a cop or criminal anyway?

As I've noted before on this thread: it's literally against the law for any news outlet to mention race and it's been that way for many many years. It definitely does make a difference to public perception. I will admit that for the more jaded and conditioned of us (white people): the default assumption is that when a crime is reported on it's a black man or black men involved. That, I'm afraid to say, is conditioning that has its roots in South Africa's past. And it's not something that a person just switches off magically one day in spite of their best efforts. But then as also stated: given the numbers i.e. vast black majority that is usually the case. It just is what it is and based on sheer numbers and nothing more. But then again as also stated: that's why things are simpler here and the issues that America faces are far more complex it would seem. And are only bound to get worse I'm afraid (but that's another entire topic).

The only issue that I find, personally, with not mentioning race is when a crime is reported and Joe Public are told to be on the lookout for a certain suspect or group of suspects. It's a bit tricky really. Point being: where is the line between pure detail and identification of suspects and crossing the race line? That said: we get by just fine as it turns out.

Trial for Jackson County deputy accused of planting evidence begins Monday

Zach Wester, the former Jackson County Deputy fired for planting evidence during traffic stops will face a jury starting Monday, May 10.

www.wtxl.com

Doesn't involve lethal force but definitely a case of police misconduct

Yeah. Nice. See. Now on the other hand: it's because of cunts like this that one can understand why somebody would rather take their chances and make a run for it. So if there's truth to this, he is given a fair trial, and is found guilty of these charges: then he needs to have the book thrown at him and then some.

Then again and course I'd make the argument: how prolific is this behavior? I have no idea. Just saying.

I will say this also though: there are some laws there that don't make sense to me. One of them is this business of probable cause. Or, as an officer in one of the videos that I posted a while back here went to great length to explain to some little idiot, not being able to search a vehicle, without a warrant, unless there is an item of interest (narcotics being an obvious one) that is clearly visible or "in plain sight" (I think that's the correct terminology). Seems to me it must be a fuck frustrating job on this score. The impression that I'm under is that even if an officer KNOWS (somehow) that a vehicle is stuffed to the brim with narcotics (for example): without a warrant and unless "in plain sight" they have no option but to let the dude or dudes go. I'm not saying that's the case here. But I can easily understand the temptation to plant evidence when you know for as sure as fuck that there's a boatload of shit in the vehicle but there's nothing that you can do about it.

But there is a caveat in the above. And I'm going to start a thread on this today i.e. been meaning to do this for a while now but it struck me head on last night and for the final time and pretty much pushed me over the edge. Essentially and if foreigners, like me, are honest with themselves: their perception of America, American law enforcement and judicial system, and a few other things, have been largely influenced by Hollywood and the entertainment industry. Some may laugh at me if you like. I don't really care. That's the truth. Right from the old Western movies (John Wayne & Co.) to the World Wars to the present day. And seems to me that the whole bunch of them are now ALSO towing the racial line and being used as yet another propaganda outlet. And it's so insidious it's just not funny anymore. And I've noticed over the years, but more particularly over this past year, that there are very few people that will not take this mindless, far fetched garbage, as gospel. Anyway, Should be an interesting thread!

There is something really dissonant about this thread compared to everywhere else in Bluelight where the police are maligned as the enemy, as corrupt, as ‘just out to get’ people, as enforcers for an evil capitalism, as goon and thugs. It seems they are, except in the context of shooting black people (in the back or anywhere else, on the run or otherwise, actually armed or not) where they have somehow become stoic and possibly defenders of civilisation.

I suppose no surprise coming from me that I don't see what you're seeing. Not on this thread anyway. Actually the total opposite is what I see. Well let me rephrase: it's the total opposite that I've been trying to prove in my posts anyway. Believe it or not (and for once in my miserable life): I've been trying to restrict my opinions and input based on the actual events. This as opposed to taking race, priors, and everything or anything else into consideration. But fair enough: widening the scope of this thread, as has been done numerous times, has highlighted some very interesting little nuggets and that are worthy of debate.

That said: there's one or two around here, on this thread, that seem to flip-flop depending on the direction of the prevailing wind on a given day. I've stopped addressing those posts.

If I had the time I’d drill down to individual inconsistencies in the way people post in CEPS vs in the drug forums, but I have only a little amount of drug fuelled energy left, so I’ll leave it at the differences in vibe.

Well I wish you did have the time. For sure that'd be a notable and worthwhile endeavor. You could, however, end up with some shocking surprises and shit that'll make your head spin!

But I'll just say that my message is consistent across the board in regards to mercenaries hired by the State to generate income and keep you docile and afraid like the good consumer you are... and that is...

'f 12'

You know I like you! So I'll keep my trap shut for now!

Embarrassing as this may turn out to be for me though: I have absolutely no idea what "f 12" means!

 

[Jabberwocky]

@deficiT @dalpat077 (and anyone else who wants to take exception to my comment. Maybe I’ve overstated the differences. Like I said I was going off the vibes. I can see plenty of people in this thread are anti-police (or at least anti the criminal, thuggish, brutish ones). Normally I like the data rather than the feels. I don’t know what’s wrong with me today.

 

[deficiT]

You know I like you! So I'll keep my trap shut for now!

Embarrassing as this may turn out to be for me though: I have absolutely no idea wha "f 12" means!

It's the polite way of saying I don't appreciate the presence of law enforcement. I'll be friendly to them when I have to, but they are definitely not my friends and if they had their way I would be in prison right now. Sure, they didn't write the bullshit laws, but they chose to get up every day and get paid to violently enforce the broken decrees of an unjust system... The instances of police "saving" people or "protecting" people are few and far between, their job is to enforce the whims of the State and the capitalist class. Non-thinking brutes and authoritarian goose steppers imo, yeah I've met some ones that aren't total pieces of shit, but it's still in my best interest to avoid them at all costs, as it is for many people on this site.

 

[dalpat077]

@deficiT @dalpat077 (and anyone else who wants to take exception to my comment. Maybe I’ve overstated the differences. Like I said I was going off the vibes. I can see plenty of people in this thread are anti-police (or at least anti the criminal, thuggish, brutish ones). Normally I like the data rather than the feels. I don’t know what’s wrong with me today.

Hey. I don't take exception to anything you post. You should know that by now. Your posts have always been enlightening to me and have often given me reason to pause and think.

It's the polite way of saying I don't appreciate the presence of law enforcement. I'll be friendly to them when I have to, but they are definitely not my friends and if they had their way I would be in prison right now. Sure, they didn't write the bullshit laws, but they chose to get up every day and get paid to violently enforce the broken decrees of an unjust system... The instances of police "saving" people or "protecting" people are few and far between, their job is to enforce the whims of the State and the capitalist class. Non-thinking brutes and authoritarian goose steppers imo, yeah I've met some ones that aren't total pieces of shit, but it's still in my best interest to avoid them at all costs, as it is for many people on this site.

All that summarized by "f 12"? I'm impressed!

 

[aemetha]

Ruling paves way for longer sentence in George Floyd's death

MINNEAPOLIS (AP) — A Minnesota judge has ruled that there were aggravating factors in the death of George Floyd , paving the way for the possibility of a longer sentence for <a href="https://apnews...

apnews.com

 

[Zephyn]

It's the polite way of saying I don't appreciate the presence of law enforcement. I'll be friendly to them when I have to, but they are definitely not my friends and if they had their way I would be in prison right now. Sure, they didn't write the bullshit laws, but they chose to get up every day and get paid to violently enforce the broken decrees of an unjust system... The instances of police "saving" people or "protecting" people are few and far between, their job is to enforce the whims of the State and the capitalist class. Non-thinking brutes and authoritarian goose steppers imo, yeah I've met some ones that aren't total pieces of shit, but it's still in my best interest to avoid them at all costs, as it is for many people on this site.

Well said, however I am glad I don't have to personally volunteer to go round up rapists, pedophiles, and murderers.

Also people who don't want to own a gun are probably glad that theives have some intimidation factor, though personally that's not any good method of protection

 

[Nurse Ratched]

The other 3 cops from Minnesota have had their State trials moved out to March of 2022. That's so the Feds can indict all 4 on Civil Rights Violations.

Apparently all 4 will be tried in the Fall in Federal Court. With Chauvin being sentenced on June 22nd, with an aggravated sentence tacked on , then heading to Federal Court in the Fall, he might be looking at some serious time.

Not sure who gets jurisdiction for Chauvins incarceration. I guess he would be transferred to Federal Prison if he is convicted in the Fall. Then back to Minnesota to serve his State time. Between the two he might serve more time than I originally thought he would.

I forgot about the Auhmed Arburey (sp) case coming up. It also has significant racial components and could very well end up in Federal Court as well.

Police brutality has been going on since the 50's, and before, and the Feds are just now getting around to prosecuting for Civil Rights Violations. Better late than never I guess but too bad it took George Floyd to open their bureaucratic eyes.

 

[LordOfThisWorld]

Soon the criminals will be in charge, locking cops up who were doing there job and following procedure is not a good thing.

 

[alasdairm]

^ hyperbolic nonsense.

chauvin was not doing his job - he was convicted of murdering a citizen.

he was not following procedure. at his trial, the chief of police of minnesota (medaria arradondo) testified at trial that chauvin did not follow proper procedures.

alasdair

 

[MydriHaze]

Soon the criminals will be in charge, locking cops up who were doing there job and following procedure is not a good thing.

No, now the criminals are in charge, locking or killing people who trying to cope and doing their life, following the mouvement, is that a good thing?

 

[dalpat077]

And I cannot even begin to describe to you just how much my state of mental health has improved since this thread lost traction!

But oh well. We're back again!

Doesn't mean I've not been keeping track of things of course. Obviously that includes watching the latest offerings from that police channel! Why just recently: a new one (link below) (the comments are the more amusing by far). Well: not a new one i.e. newly released I should say.

One thing I've also found and that may debunk some of which has been posted here. I use the word "may" for the simple reason that it comes from the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention (OJJDP). This being said: you are able to select age when producing a table of statistics. I'm unsure if by selecting "All ages" that's actually inclusive of all or if the figures are, somehow, applicable only to said office (OJJDP). In other words: by selecting "Adult" is that comprehensive or does that mean juveniles who were already in the system and became adults? Maybe somebody can enlighten me.

I tried to correlate these figures to other sources. Closest I've come is to the FBI's website. And whoever the fuck is running that needs to come down to earth and get a grip on reality i.e. it's the most convoluted and complicated website I've come across for statistical purposes.

And just in case ya'll don't know: as of the beginning of this year your crime statistics are now being collected by some or the other new methodology and process and the old way of doing things is being phased out. It means it's going to take a while for the new statistics to become meaningful while at the same time skewing the former. I had a link to this on another device but I cannot find it right now (the link I mean). I'm not making this up though I assure you.

Anyway. Statistics. From the OJJDP anyway. But here we go (for 2019 and before) (bearing in mind that said statistics were published on 16 November 2020 so they obviously run behind by a fair margin due having to wait for data and collate the same). And these are arrests i.e. it's unclear if just arrests or arrests that resulted ina conviction. Also be sure to read the footnotes for changes made to categorization etc.

Arrests by offense, age, and race

www.ojjdp.gov

Moving on. Same shit. Mr. Trayford Pellerin on the night of 21 August 2020. Video released 12 May 2021.

 

[mal3volent]

Soon the criminals will be in charge, locking cops up who were doing there job and following procedure is not a good thing.

Criminals are already in charge.

 

[alasdairm]

And I cannot even begin to describe to you just how much my state of mental health has improved since this thread lost traction!

But oh well. We're back again!

you're under no obligation to participate. you know that right?

Moving on. Same shit. Mr. Trayford Pellerin on the night of 21 August 2020. Video released 12 May 2021.

posted without comment? what's your opinion of those events and pellerin's death?

alasdair

 

[dalpat077]

you're under no obligation to participate. you know that right?

Very true. But you know me better than that! Cannot help myself!

And besides: for better or for worse this thread has most definitely been educational and given me time to reflect on the original issue. So all good.

posted without comment? what's your opinion of those events and pellerin's death?

alasdair

Comment same as usual I'm afraid. Had the dude complied from the get go: we'd not be having this conversation.

And I have to admit: as priceless as some of the comments are on YouTube there are some valid points made. As somebody mentioned: he was given far more opportunities than most to take it down a notch but he chose not to. He was carrying a knife and, therefore, and from what I gather anyway, law enforcement could not run the risk of his entering the store and possibly taking a hostage or two or harming somebody in the store. Leaving it to the K-9 maybe? Speaking for myself (and this obviously personal): I'd put myself at risk before the dog (so this probably doesn't count but just saying) (and obviously I'd not do well in the K-9 unit).

Perplexing though: what would have happened if, as a result of his actions, and the first officer not using lethal force initially, he caused a major pileup on the freeway and that resulted in a few people being killed as a result? Callous as it may sound: I think the officer was in the wrong in even allowing it to escalate at all. I've not watched the video again (today) but I recall them both crossing the freeway twice (from one side, to the other, and then back again) and sounded to me like one of the big trucks even jammed on brakes. Another scenario: a civilian wipes out either the officer or our person of interest. Most people I know wouldn't deal with that too well in spite of it not being their fault and out of their control.

And it's an interesting one from two other perspectives. The failure of the tazer? Why? Malfunction? Or not charged (or maintained)? Had it worked: problem solved with no loss of life. And the similarity (in appearance) to a service weapon as well as being carried on the same side so far as I can tell (this in reference to the other incident with the female officer and the yellow tazer) (this being a simple observation though and nothing else).

I have not looked up anything on this incident though but should i.e. could be interesting.

Unfortunately it comes back to the same thing for me though. Had the dude just complied: nothing would have happened. Well: nothing other than him being taken into custody is my guess i.e. this particular chap didn't carry on the way he did for no reason or out of fear that's for sure.

 

[alasdairm]

sure, that is one way of looking at it.

another is that he was committing no crime - yes, he had a knife but at no point did he advance towards police or show any intent to use it on police or anybody else. during the entire episode, he was retreating from officers. he was instructed to not enter the store and, when he failed to comply, 5 police officers shot him 11 times.

do you believe their action was the only course of action? do you believe that their action was proportionate to the threat?

alasdair

 

[dalpat077]

another is that he was committing no crime - yes, he had a knife but at no point did he advance towards police or show any intent to use it on police or anybody else. during the entire episode, he was retreating from officers. he was instructed to not enter the store and, when he failed to comply, 5 police officers shot him 11 times.

Putting my steadfast conviction (had he, like all the rest, just complied) aside: then you're right on all technically speaking. And unfortunately I have to remove the K-9 unit out of this because if somebody knifed that dog I shoot the guy anyway. So having said all of that: one question that does always come to mind (and particularly in an incident such as this) is that if it's not possible to shoot these dudes without killing them i.e. effectively immobilizing them? But then I don't know if this is feasible i.e. I do know for sure that firing a pistol with great accuracy from any distance isn't as easy as some people think (or have been led to believe thanks to Hollywood). So this idea is possibly flawed i.e. it's expecting for every officer to be a skilled marksman. And even if that be the case: pressure of the situation. lighting conditions, you get the picture. Multiple officers shooting? Who makes the call or when? If they all decided to wait for the other: the dude could have been in the store already and whatever may have transpired from there.

As I said: my crass sense of humor aside this is an interesting one (albeit that I didn't perceive it that way at first).

do you believe their action was the only course of action? do you believe that their action was proportionate to the threat?

I think I've partly addressed this above. Could one of them maybe have caught up with him and wrestled the knife away? I don't know what the training manual says. But I'm betting it goes something along the lines of him having a deadly weapon and that warrants lethal force (this at bare minimum i.e. this aside from failing to comply initially). And frankly (personally speaking): if I have such a mandate I'm not going to put myself in harm's way for somebody who a) has such a bad attitude, b) has been given more than his fair share of opportunities to comply, and c) could very well have endangered others. And I'm pretty sure that law enforcement has to make certain assumptions and judgments. And as much as it's unpalatable to bring this type of thing up here: what if this dude was as high as a kite on something and (arguably) not responsible for his actions or not acting like he otherwise would have? I know for sure the one thing I'd be asking myself is why is this dude so intent on running anyway? There must be a reason.

And I must admit: I tend (rightly or wrongly so) to try and fathom what else could possibly have transpired in these situations had the officers not acted the way they did. In this instance: the most likely outcome, to me, would have been this dude actually getting into the store and taking a hostage. That leaves the door open to a few possibilities. He takes a hostage but after a time he is talked down and taken into custody. He takes a hostage, kills the hostage, and then gets shot. If it be the latter: then Joe Public would have a field day with law enforcement. Possible other scenarios: he escapes out of the back door and gets away. But what if at some point in the next few hours he uses that knife on somebody else for whatever reason? We could probably analyze the possible outcomes until the cows come home. But from where I sit: law enforcement will get the short straw in just about every possible scenario. It seems to really be just how short said straw is.


The major problem with seeing these things though is that we see them after the fact. And this stuff all escalates pretty quickly. This unlike the George Floyd incident that dragged out before our eyes. See what I'm saying? Watch that video ten times and you'll see what I'm getting at. First time around: seems as though everything happened in a flash. But by the tenth time you've watched it: you'll tend to see things in a different light and pick up on pauses maybe (where alternate decisions and actions could have contemplated).

 

[alasdairm]

^ thanks.

for what it's worth, methamphetamine was detected in his body.

alasdair

 

[dalpat077]

^ thanks.

for what it's worth, methamphetamine was detected in his body.

alasdair

Did I happen to mention that I enjoy debating and discussing things with you and people like you (even although we don’t as a rule agree on certain things) (this in reference to not being able to help myself)! Emphasis on the words debating and discussing (as opposed to some of the outbursts that occur from time to time on threads such as this) (I suppose I could include myself in that though from time to time).

Another thought for fun and before my iPad goes flat:

Something else interesting that I was thinking about on this one. I don’t know about there. But I can tell you that if it were here: anybody and everybody in that store would have been poking their heads out of the door to see what the hell was going on. Imagine a shot going astray and offing a bystander? Or would law enforcement not then have fired? I cannot help but wonder if, in this case, it did indeed go on too long.

Not easy stuff this.

Probably the reason I try to keep it simple and contain myself to the actual events as opposed to a person’s past record or race or whatever else (race only coming into it to defend the position that overall totals don’t support the narrative that black people are being specifically targeted and offed in record numbers compared to the total populous). These other “what if” or “what would happened if” theories and hypotheses of mine could easily do my head in!

 

[dalpat077]

Then again (see: this is what happens when certain threads get some life breathed back into them)!

Usually takes me five cigarettes and two walks around the garden to gather my thoughts. And it’s night here!

In just thinking about those crime stats. that I posted earlier and taking them at face value (in the absence of receiving additional or relevant input as to their overall validity or applicability) then here’s something interesting maybe:

According to those figures for 2019: black people are not, overall, disproportionately committing crimes. But the general consensus is that the majority of inmates are black. Now there’s something to think about. They may not, according to me and certain statistics, be being shot disproportionately as the narrative goes. But could very well be that this is clear evidence that something else is going on e.g. more likely to be arrested, convicted, and incarcerated. An argument that has been made here already by others. Interesting. Sorry. These things take time to sink in!

As noted: unclear if those are arrests and that resulted in convictions or simply arrests and that did not result in convictions or were merely incident reports.

I think this a good time for me to call it a night and sleep!

 

[LordOfThisWorld]

^ hyperbolic nonsense.

chauvin was not doing his job - he was convicted of murdering a citizen.

he was not following procedure. at his trial, the chief of police of minnesota (medaria arradondo) testified at trial that chauvin did not follow proper procedures.

alasdair

That’s not what his lawyer said if you watched the trial.