Police Brutality Thread

[Burnt Offerings]

Well I have witnessed people change in seriously unexpected ways and achieve things they would have been previously deemed incapable of.

George might've cleaned up and discovered a latent talent that could have impacted positively, locally , even globally, who knows.

You're denying the possibility of growth and change.

I agree. Drawing attention to larger issues and hopefully initiating some positive change are the only good things associated with Floyd's death. His death was a murder and I condemn it (which should be the easiest call on earth to make sense in was a crime in which we have granular detail of the events surrounding Floyd's death, but it was the same situation in Eric Garner's killing, with over a year passing by before any administrative action was taken!), and it would be better if he was still around. The dehumanization that results from equivocating regarding shit like this (not to say that that's anyone's intent, but I think that's ultimately the effect) is no bueno.

Like David Simon said in that movie "The House I Live In", once you start getting that ball rolling, of deciding that it would be better if such-and-such people are dead or persecuted...may not start with you but it'll get around to you over a long enough timeline. The war on drugs is the classic example of this. All of the constitutional violations (4th amendment and otherwise), all the ways the federal government was empowered to conduct themselves in a heinous way against communities of color during the 80s, 90s and 2000s, all of that shit is coming home to roost. The only outcomes I see is to double down on the bullshit, to say "you can literally murder someone in public in broad daylight and not only won't I do anything, I'll make excuses for it or somehow say that it's really all for the best!", or to lead with your condemnation and hold out hope that some positive change might come from this terrible crime.

 

[LordOfThisWorld]

indeed. so you'll join me in publicly condemning the trump supporters who rioted on january 6th and attacked the nation's capitol, along with president trump who encouraged them to do so?

alasdair

Yes I condemn the Capitol Riots, but no Trump did not encourage them, that's all a lie and words twisted more anti Trump Propaganda.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

You're denying the possibility of growth and change.

No, I'm playing the odds.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

As I've clearly demonstrated, black communities are more heavily policed, resulting in black people being charged and convicted of more crimes relative to the total crimes committed

You didn't even begin to back this up with any actual data.

Black communities are more heavily policed, yes, but that doesn't imply that they are heavily policed because they are black.

You mentioned that the majority of incarcerations are a result of drug crimes and presented a survey (which is not the same as data) that indicated Black and white people equally consume and sell drugs.

What you didn't respond to was my questions about what type of drugs they are and quantities, etc.

Furthermore, we're not talking about incarceration rates... and we're not talking about drug-related crimes. We're talking about police brutality.

According to statistics, young Black men are more likely to commit violent crimes. You haven't presented any data (or surveys) to counter these stats.

...

Let me ask you this.

1. Do you agree that (on an encounter to encounter basis) white people are MORE likely to be shot by police?

2. Do you agree that Black people commit more murders?
2A. If your answer is no, are Black people frequently being falsely accused of murders that are committed by white people? Or are there a substantial number of unaccounted for murders committed by white people?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

It should be treated as a big deal anytime life is taken, in my mind. Often it isnt when cops are the ones doing it, and that's not ok.

So, if George Floyd had been killed by another thug it would have been more of a big deal? The complete opposite of the second sentence I quoted is true, assuming the victim is Black.

 

[aemetha]

You didn't even begin to back this up with any actual data.

I did, you just dismissed it because it wasn't sourced from the accused party. Here's some more.

Comparing Black and White Drug Offenders: Implications for Racial Disparities in Criminal Justice and Reentry Policy and Programming

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@aemetha

Okay, so that's all drugs again. You didn't respond (again) to my other questions.

I don't have time to read the entire study. If you're going to post data, please quote the relevant section of what you are citing rather than just dumping the link.

you just dismissed it because it wasn't sourced from the accused party.

What?
You posted a survey.

 

[Coffeeshroom]

All i can add is that no one has the right to dictate your worthyness or how much you contribute to society to if you are worthy of being alive. What happened was wrong, no matter what way you wanna look at it. I personally think that was out right murder as he already had a personal vendetta against Floyd. Or that is my conclusion.

 

[aemetha]

Okay, so that's all drugs again. You didn't respond (again) to my other questions.

You said that blacks commit more crimes. Drug crimes are crimes. They are the largest statistical category of crimes. Increased crime rates are used to justify heavier policing of predominantly black communities. This results in a higher capture rate of crime committed in said communities, resulting in a higher crime rate reported. Violent crime is also caught up in that, but it's neither here nor there. I was refuting the specific comment you made that blacks commit more crimes. You do not have evidence to support that statement, what you have evidence to support is the corrected statement I provided.

What?
You posted a survey

Survey's are a form of data collection. Survey results are a form of data. Unless you want to argue the point with every research professor I ever had.

I don't have time to read the entire study. If you're going to post data, please quote the relevant section of what you are citing rather than just dumping the link.

Okay, well, since the entire paper addresses the point that we're discussing here, I would suggest the relevant section is the bit that begins after the section labelled abstract, and ends at the bit labelled references (unless you want to check them). Seriously man, it's not a long paper and it really does address the whole thing. If you're going to argue the methodology and veracity of the paper you need to read the whole thing.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@Coffeeshroom

Everybody has the right to state their opinion.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

You said that blacks commit more crimes.

I've pretty consistently said violent crimes. I'm sure at some point you can quote me abbreviating this to crimes, but I've been talking mostly about homicides.

Let me ask you this.

1. Do you agree that (on an encounter to encounter basis) white people are MORE likely to be shot by police?

2. Do you agree that Black people commit more murders?
2A. If your answer is no, are Black people frequently being falsely accused of murders that are committed by white people? Or are there a substantial number of unaccounted for murders committed by white people?

since the entire paper addresses the point that we're discussing here

It doesn't. It entirely relates to drugs, which is not at all what I've been talking about.

I was refuting the specific comment you made that blacks commit more crimes. You do not have evidence to support that statement, what you have evidence to support is the corrected statement I provided.

I do have evidence and I have presented it. You are choosing to ignore most of what I'm saying and focus on drugs because that is the only way to support your argument.

Black people do commit more crimes. If they commit an equal number of drug-related crimes (which is your position) and they commit more violent crimes, then - overall - they clearly commit more crimes.

Survey's are a form of data collection. Survey results are a form of data. Unless you want to argue the point with every research professor I ever had.

I think you know what I mean, but I will rephrase it anyway.

Surveys are not interchangeable with federal data. They rely on sample populations and they rely on people honestly answering questions.

There is good data and bad data.

But, as I said, it's irrelevant if Black and white people commit the same number of drug related crimes. They do not commit the same amount of crime, which is the statement you are responding to... even though I have pretty consistently said violent crime and have clearly been focusing on homicides throughout the thread.

This isn't about incarceration rates. This is about whether or not Black people are being shot because of the colour of their skin. It seems to me that is not the case and they are, instead, being shot because they are more likely (for whatever reason) to commit violent crimes.

Seriously man, it's not a long paper and it really does address the whole thing. If you're going to argue the methodology and veracity of the paper you need to read the whole thing.

I've already spent way too much time discussing this and I simply do not have the motivation to read every single study people dump into discussions on BL. It is up to you, like it or not, to do the legwork.

I would be more motivated to read it if it wasn't entirely about drugs.

 

[aemetha]

I've already spent way too much time discussing this and I simply do not have the motivation to read every single study people dump into discussions on BL. It is up to you, like it or not, to do the legwork.

You made the claim. The onus is on you to prove it. You haven't.

The only thing I disagree with is the race part. I've already clearly demonstrated that Black people aren't being shot disproportionately to the amount of crimes they commit.

This claim is false because it is based on biased law enforcement statistics, as I've demonstrated in argument supported by evidence in the form of the scientific study you won't read.

Surveys are not interchangeable with federal data. They rely on sample populations and they rely on people honestly answering questions.

There is good data and bad data.

Okay, so your argument is that anonymous survey data which minimises the risk of bias is bad data, yet federal statistics based on information submitted by the law enforcement agencies, about the practices of those same law enforcement agencies, maximising the risk of bias is good data? Sorry, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

Let me ask you this.

1. Do you agree that (on an encounter to encounter basis) white people are MORE likely to be shot by police?

2. Do you agree that Black people commit more murders?
2A. If your answer is no, are Black people frequently being falsely accused of murders that are committed by white people? Or are there a substantial number of unaccounted for murders committed by white people?

I'm sorry, but this is just whataboutism. I refuted a single statement you made. That's what it's about. Just that.

I've pretty consistently said violent crimes. I'm sure at some point you can quote me abbreviating this to crimes, but I've been talking mostly about homicides.

Then we're agreed that you have no issues with the correction to your initial statement I made. Glad we could reach an accommodation on the issue .

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

You guys are really going to have this argument again? :D
Looks almost identical to me.

Try to recall the conclusions back then...

You said that blacks commit more crimes. Drug crimes are crimes. They are the largest statistical category of crimes. Increased crime rates are used to justify heavier policing of predominantly black communities. This results in a higher capture rate of crime committed in said communities, resulting in a higher crime rate reported.

Man, I really think you're hurting your argument here, I pulled up a quick study https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/revcoa18.pdf literally my first google result.
If you look at the first page, for arrests and convictions (yes I understand that this is what you're saying), but they say that black people get convicted 3.5 times more (relatively speaking). Of course a whole bunch of factors influence the conviction rate and whatnot, but not to a degree of 250%, that's just willingly ignoring things. To me this is classic cultural leftism, from academic high horses talking around everything, and that is exactly why the left never gets any respect by conservatives. And I don't say it's particularly the black communities fault, just decades of things going really wrong from all sides.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

You made the claim. The onus is on you to prove it. You haven't.

Yes, I have.

This claim is false because it is based on biased law enforcement statistics, as I've demonstrated in argument supported by evidence in the form of the scientific study you won't read.

Link dumping is the internet equivalent of throwing books at people.

...

At the end of the day, you refuse to answer my questions but I'm supposed to read entire studies that you link because you couldn't be bothered paraphrasing?

I've done you the courtesy - up until now - of responding to everything you say. If this isn't a two-way street, I'm not interested in having this discussion with you.

You're avoiding my questions.
You're not being honest.

I don't have time for this.

 

[Bella Figura]

Can someone kneel on this thread's neck for 9mins please?

 

[aemetha]

Man, I really think you're hurting your argument here, I pulled up a quick study https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/revcoa18.pdf literally my first google result.

I'm not really claiming that the entire discrepancy in arrests is explainable for this reason. What I am saying is we don't have the data to say the blacks commit more crimes than whites. We have data that shows blacks are arrested and convicted more than whites. We also have data that shows that blacks are more heavily policed than whites. We also have data that shows in the area of one of the greatest discrepancies blacks and whites admit to committing crimes at similar rates, but blacks are for more often arrested and convicted of those crimes.

My issue is more that we shouldn't say things, particularly in racially charged subjects, that we don't know to be true. We know that blacks are arrested and convicted more. We don't know that they commit more crimes.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Clearly they commit more homicides, but you won't even admit that.

Nobody really "knows" anything.

 

[aemetha]

You're not being honest.

Don't insult me. I have been nothing but honest with you throughout the entire conversation.

Clearly they commit more homicides, but you won't even admit that.

Here's the problem. Your research begins with your conclusion. I don't know how many homicides they commit. I don't know how many homicides white people commit. At least, and usually more, than a third of the homicides committed in the US go unresolved. I know statistics. I'm just saying, be careful what you say - if you say black people commit more crimes and go investigating that as a research question, first you'll get thrown off any academic campus because your premise is racist. Secondly, you piss a lot of people off for no reason. If you instead say black people are arrested and convicted of more crimes you'll get funding and support for investigating why.

Words matter. The questions you ask matter.

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

I'm just saying, be careful what you say - if you say black people commit more crimes and go investigating that as a research question, first you'll get thrown off any academic campus because your premise is racist.

You won't in my country, that is a legit research question. Of course you can go investigate that with the necessary nuances and everything.

I really hate this, the true death of the left, be real I say, don't tiptoe around everything, it's so counter productive.

Look at the study I gave you, for violent crimes that don't include 'other assault', black people are on average 4.5x more likely to be convicted for them! 4.5x, you can start bringing up all external factors you want, this is a crazy amount. Of course some factors like systemic racism and racial profiling have some effect, but not that large, this is extremely obvious to everyone except some. Now what are the real problems? Police brutality and unhealthy environments leading to terrible policy-civilian relationships, social status (where race can also come in), probably some cultural factors (gangs?), so many things... Many people in this thread have brought up excellent points regarding this.

But how can anyone solve a problem when this isn't even recognized?

 

[aemetha]

@birdup.snaildown I am sorry if I offended you in this discussion. It was not my intention to do that. My intention is to argue the subject forcefully. I don't see much point in labouring the issue. I will bow out with this final thought (which you're welcome to respond to or not as you choose). Earlier in the thread you argued passionately in defense of Chauvin, saying there was sufficient reasonable doubt. My point with the drug crime discrepancies is to introduce the same reasonable doubt to the metaphorical trial of black people. As I say, I don't know if they do or do not commit more crimes. I do think there's enough reasonable doubt to not label them as such.