Poker

[Petersko]

Slow rolls are rude, buddy.

Are you saying just in general, or in the situation I was in?

I ask because I've heard other people say that, too. I don't agree with that, I think playing a strong hand very slow and conservative to squeeze your opponent(s) dry is a good strategy that without a doubt takes much patience and skill. It's an essential part of a card game in the same way bluffing is. Do you think leading other players to think your hand is better than it actually is is wrong?

Oh, no... slow PLAYING is perfectly fine with me.

Slow rolls. Like...

"Well I got the king" then I toss out the 8 and said "Oh yeah, I also have the 8."

Especially rude if it's the second card that brings down the hammer.

 

[BA]

Gotcha.

 

[HobbyIsBowling]

One guy flips over Q/Q, the other actually had the nerve to grin and turns over A/10 thinking his 2 pairs are best. So I toss out my K, and say "Well I got the king" then I toss out the 8 and said "Oh yeah, I also have the 8." This whole hand actually took about 3 minutes to play out, but it was the fastest I'd ever seen anyone come -n- go like that. One hand, both people go out.

If I was the guy w/ the AT and I wasn't friends with you, I woulda reached over the table and knocked you out. It's happened before to people in previously friendly games for less than that. Trying to be like worm in rounders? Not really that cool man.

Not only is that rude and disrespectful as fuck, but it shows that you don't play cards for money very often. An Amarillo Slim(I'm pretty sure) quote: "You can sheer a sheep many times, but skin him only once". This isn't just another pleasant sounding rounders quote - it actually applies very directly to playing cards at any kind of local underground establishment (or playing with friends, for that matter). In that situation, I woulda just said "Yeah I got lucky as hell with that k 8, I tried to buy it early and just got lucky" and let them grit their teeth and wait for their next try at busting my stupid(they think) ass. That's how you play it, at least IMO.

Also, the description of your play was... well, unusual. Pre-flop you talk about how you "should have bet more" because you thought they had AQ/AK? Why bet more, just so they can come over the top and put you all in at a 2 to 1 disadvantage(or worse)? I just don't understand some of the comments you made throughout your narrative, particularly pre flop and right after the flop.

 

[TopRocka]

I just lost 95K which I earned playing 5/10 blinds on FullTiltPoker for the past 2 hours going all in.

I am done with poker forever.

No really.

 

[HobbyIsBowling]

I just lost 95K which I earned playing 5/10 blinds on FullTiltPoker for the past 2 hours going all in.

I am done with poker forever.

No really.

You're not like, serious... are you?

 

[TopRocka]

95K in chips, bud.

lol

 

[HobbyIsBowling]

lol, I was thinking you just lost $95,000. Now THAT would be a rough day!

 

[TopRocka]

I would not be posting on BL if I lost $95K via online poker.

The All Time MLB Draft may be renamed the TR memorial if that were the case.

 

[Petersko]

Also, the description of your play was... well, unusual.

I was thinking that myself. If you start with Kh and 8s, and you raise at a table of 11 - even in reasonable position - I don't know whether you're overly aggressive, or simply bad.

 

[BA]

Woah easy bud, Hobby Bowling is gettin all worked up!

9 times out of 10 I just throw the cards over and say 'cool' if I make a good play, but there was something about the smug smirk he shot at me when he flipped the A/10 as if to say "You should've known better". I guess it's hard to convey looks and mood over text on a computer monitor.

Sorry I didn't say what YOU would've said.

 

[PGTips]

A friend is hopelessly addicted to it. He's 6 weeks away from his university finals and instead of doing coursework has spent the whole of our 6 week Easter holiday playing poker. Every day goes online around 2pm and comes offline around 2am. He knows his shit though, its a bad day it he's only up $100. He's had days of being up over $1000, winning hands worth $800 sometimes! For a student thats a serious amount of money! For anyone, thats a serious amount of money in 1 day!

As a follow up from this post, my friend spent so much time playing online poker, he failed his 3rd year uni exams. Not just slightly, he didn't even get half way to the "Pass" boundary mark

Since he didn't do the coursework (playing poker) and he did so badly, they aren't going to give him even a kind of "You attended 3 years of university" certificate (not a degree, just something to show for 3 years)

Obviously you guys have got control of your playing way more than my friend does, but its still disconcerting when it happens to someone

 

[Petersko]

I play once every two weeks at most. I don't play online.

I love playing poker, but I have too many other things I need/want to do.

 

[faithfully dangerous]

i go through spurts of being obsessed with hold em. one of my friends is actually playing in the WSOP so naturally im getting into it again.

 

[alasdairm]

Originally posted by Petersko
If you start with Kh and 8s, and you raise at a table of 11 - even in reasonable position - I don't know whether you're overly aggressive, or simply bad.

that's an interesting comment - do you have very rigid rules about what you'll play? do you always stick to them?

i have personal guidelines about what i will and will not play but, once in a while, i'll mix it up a little and play something i would never ever play. if you're sitting with a JQ and the flop comes 568, big deal. if you played that 74 once in a while then the 568 flop is obviously a monster and nobody will imagine somebody stayed in with a 74.

alasdair

 

[Stasis]

The only time to raise with something like K8 offsuit is if you're in very late position with no early position callers, or when the number of players are down to two or three, and if you get re-raised, be very careful.

K8 is what you would call a "trap hand", because you can easily get trapped. Someone else may have a real hand like KQ or KJ, and if you happen to hit your King on the flop you may end up betting all or a lot of your stack thinking you have the best hand and end up getting outkicked.

 

[Stasis]

that's an interesting comment - do you have very rigid rules about what you'll play? do you always stick to them?

Here's a good excerpt from poker pro Rory Monahan which may help, long but worth it:

Here is a DANGEROUS MISTAKE that I'd say about 97%
of people make when playing Texas Holdem:

THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO PROPERLY PLAY IN FIRST
POSITION BEFORE THE FLOP.

This is the player immediately to the left of the
big blind. It's the first person to act as soon as
the cards are dealt.

This position is nicknamed "under the gun".

And with good reason, too.

Because this is THE the most DANGEROUS and COSTLY
position at the table.

Here's why:

1. When you're under the gun, you are FIRST to act
BEFORE the flop... and one of the first to act
AFTER the flop.

This means you DON'T EVEN GET A CHANCE to get a
read on the other players before you must make
your decisions about betting...

2. The other players can check-raise you, trap
you, and get a READ on YOU much more easily when
you're in this position at the table...

3. You are more likely to get bluffed, pushed
around, out drawn, and BEAT when you're in this
position.

Let's examine WHY this table position is so
terrible... and what proven strategies you can use
to play under the gun PROPERLY, so that you don't
lose any more money because of it.

Here's an example...

Let's say you're under the gun at an 8-man table.

You get your cards and look down at an A,10 off-
suit. You decide to limp in, and you call the big
blind (50).

The action goes around the table to the other
players. The man on the button (Drew) decides to
RAISE and make it 300 total to play.

You're not sure if this is a position raise, or if
he really does have a solid hand.

With all the chips already in the pot... plus the
50 you already put in from your own stack, you
decide to call with your A,10.

There's one other caller, and both the big blind
and small blind players fold.

The flop comes out:

A,3,6 - all different suits.

You've hit top pair. Congratulations.

What sucks is that you're FIRST to act, and you
know that Drew is probably going to raise you no
matter what you do...

But you don't have a read on Drew or the other
player. If Drew raises, you have to call, right? I
mean, you hit top pair in a raised pot.

So let's say you throw out a "feeler bet", just to
see where you're at.

Drew calls, and the other guy folds.

Hmmmm... so now you wonder if Drew is SLOW-PLAYING
a big hand or if he's just going to bluff at this.

The turn comes. It's an 8.

You check... and now Drew bets 1000.

What now?

You're "pot committed" and you still have top-pair,
so you decide to call.

Now the river comes, you check again, and Drew goes
all-in for 3000 more.

You've already got about 1500 in the pot. You're
getting over 2:1 on your money, and you're really
not sure if Drew's bluffing or not. So you call...

And sure enough, Drew throws over his Big Slick
(A,K), and rakes in the pot.

Ouch.

And the REASON you lost that big pot wasn't just
the cards... it was your POSITIONING.

If you're under the gun and you hit top pair on
the flop, you're just ASKING for trouble...

Because it's very difficult to get an accurate
read on your opponents when you're first to act.

I mean... let's just look at the many ways you can
LOSE your money when playing under the gun:

- If you call the blinds, but then the pot gets
raised before the flop and you fold. (You've lost
your blinds.)

- If you call the blinds (and maybe a pre-flop
raise) and the flop is no help to you. You check,
and there's a big bet by another player and you
are forced to fold.

- If you bet after the flop but get raised and are
forced to fold.

- If you have a good hand but someone else has a
MONSTER and slow-plays you. (It's much easier for
someone to slow-play you when you're first to act.)

- And more...

Now multiply all of these LOSSES by the number of
times you will be under the gun every single time
you play cards.

The result is a TON of lost chips...

But I do have good news:

IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY.

You don't have to lose money every time you're
first to act before the flop...

You just have to know EXACTLY WHICH HANDS TO PLAY
and HOW TO PLAY THEM.

Let's take a look...

In our example above, the biggest mistake made was
playing A,10 in the first place.

Since under the gun positioning is so dangerous,
you shouldn't play anything except PREMIUM HANDS.

The rule is this: TIGHTEN UP YOUR GAME.

Only play these exact hands:

AK, AQ, KQ, and pairs.

The only other hand you may want to play is suited
connectors, but that just depends on your style...
Personally, I don't like to play them here.

OK, now let's look at HOW to play the starting
hands. There are basically two groups:

Group 1: AA, KK, QQ, and AK.

Group 2: AQ, KQ, and all other pairs.

Got it?

Now stick with me here, because this is VERY
SIMPLE to understand and will save you a lot of
money at the Holdem table.

When you're under the gun, you should always CALL
THE BLINDS (LIMP-IN) when you get any hand in
Group 2.

That means if you get any pair between 2's and
Jacks... or AQ or KQ... you should CALL.

Period.

The goal is to hit something good on the flop. If
someone makes a reasonable raise before the flop,
you can feel comfortable calling it with one of
these hands.

I love playing small pocket pairs, because if you
spike your card on the flop (giving you a three of
a kind or a "set"), your opponents will usually
never see it coming.

Now let's talk about Group 1 hands. The monsters:

AA, KK, QQ, AK

The way you play these depends on whether the
table you're at is LOOSE or TIGHT.

Here's the rule:

If you're at a LOOSE table (where a lot of pre-
flop raises occur), you should LIMP-IN (call) with
your monster.

If you're at a TIGHT table (where not many pre-
flop raises occur), you should RAISE the pot
before the flop.

Here's why...

If the table is LOOSE, and you limp-in before the
flop, the pot will most likely get RAISED and the
action will come BACK to you.

This is good. It means more money in the pot for
your monster hand.

But if you make a big bet, there's a good chance
you will NOT get raised. Because you're first to
act and everyone will know you probably have a
good hand.

If you limp-in and the pot gets raised, you should
probably make a RE-RAISE. Always try to get as
much money in the pot whenever possible with your
monster hand...

But you DON'T want more than 1-2 callers, because
that would increase the odds of catching a bad
beat.

Now if the table is TIGHT, you want to make a
RAISE before the flop. You don't want a bunch of
players to all limp-in and see a cheap flop...

Instead, you want to narrow down the field to 1-2
players and get some money in the middle before
the flop. Period.

Playing first position before the flop is just
plain tricky...

You're first to act pre-flop, in early position
after the flop, you can't get as good of a read
on your opponents, and you're at risk to getting
slow-played.

So just remember, the next time you're under the
gun, follow these three simple rules:

1. Only play premium hands: pairs, AK, AQ, or KQ.

2. With AA, KK, QQ, and AK, you should RAISE at a
tight table and LIMP-IN at a loose table.

3. With the other starting hands you should just
LIMP-IN.

Play by these easy rules and you'll stop losing
money and start MAKING money from this very
dangerous position.

And you'll have a MAJOR ADVANTAGE over everyone
else at the table who DOESN'T know this strategy.

 

[Petersko]

If you start with Kh and 8s, and you raise at a table of 11 - even in reasonble position - I don't know whether you're overly aggressive, or simply bad.

that's an interesting comment - do you have very rigid rules about what you'll play? do you always stick to them?

I vary my play considerably, but at a table of 11 people, K/8 offsuit is not going to stand up. If you raise in good position, most people know they'll only have to call your single raise to see the flop. You're going to get at least one caller with a better starting hand, and probably more than one.

That kind of play is a guaranteed money loser if you do it often enough. You might get lucky occasionally, but you're still playing bad poker.

I'll occasionally play a bluff hand - heck, I bluff way more than my card-playing buddies realize - but I'll generally limp in, and then bluff a hit on the flop if circumstances warrant rather than bluffing a strong starting hand straight off. Bluffing hard from the start and raising hard all the way is an excellent way to lose a lot of money in a hurry.

 

[BA]

I've been playing free no-limit hold 'em at www.pokerroom.com lately.

Start with $1000 funny money to play limit games in low, med, or high level games or play no limit. Nice layout, no software to download even if you play for real money, you just have to register.

I'm up to $24,000 in one weekend. If only it were this way in real life.

 

[Albert Walker]

My worst beat came during a high FPP qualifier for WSOP on pokerstars last month. The top 6 players each win a seat. Over 800 people started and there was only like 18 left. I was in 4th place before this hand. My pocket cards were K7c. No one raised preflop. On the flop there were 2 clubs and ace of spades. One person bet (3rd place chip holder) a decent bet and I was the only caller. Since he didn't raise preflop I put him on an ace with a low kicker. I do not remember the turn because it was meaningless to us both. The river came the jack of clubs giving me a king high flush with both my pocket cards making the flush. The other guy came out with a fairly small bet and I thought he just had a pair of aces. Seeing how if I called all in and got a call I would be the chip leader. I called all in and he called. I was confident that I had this pot won. His pocket cards were A3c giving him the nut flush and knocking me out. I have thought about that hand many times since then and would do the same thing if I was ever in the same situation, seeing how it was definitely the best play. The odds of him beating me like that were less then a half of a percent. After playing in this tournament for 5+ hours I was quite upset.

He ended up winning a seat and I got a big smile when reading the pokerstars blogs seeing how he did not win any money.

 

[BA]

Are any of you guys on pokerroom.com? I know it's freeplay, but it's a fun way to practice.

Here are a couple screen caps I took this afternoon:

Before I put the screws to somebody: