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Philosophers of Today

How can you reasonably expect people to just "get past" that?

In a nutshell? Ayn Rand. You're wasting your time, man.

fine, then you don't understand how ppl get past 'poverty', whether speaking of individuals today or with respect to human development as a whole.

Am I to understand that you do? Many highly intelligent people devote significant proportions of their time on Earth to this very issue, and encounter considerable difficulty. [These are specialists, mind you, not armchair theorists.]
 
In a nutshell? Ayn Rand. You're wasting your time, man.

I would hope that when someone is exposed to enough information to sufficiently prove their viewpoint and the place they inherited that point of view entirely wrong/misinformed/morally repugnant, that he or she would then eventually change said viewpoint.

Even if they do not do it initially due to the nature of debate itself, bmxx will eventually be reduced to one of these two options:

1. Accept that his point of view is wrong

or

2. Take his philosophy to such a depth that he comes to the conclusion that the starvation, sickness, and eventual untimely death of a couple billion people is something they "deserve" (or however he would put it). At this point, nobody, ever, would be able to take him seriously in these matters, and his point of view would cease to be contagious, potentially preventing others from being affected by the sickness that is Ayn Rand's "philosophy."


Considering he does not understand the nature of extreme global poverty, and has even gone so far as to state a semi-denial of its existence in this thread, I think we can get to the root of the problem with his thinking and possibly change his mind. He's a very smart dude, based on all the help he has given me in various workout threads.
 
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In a nutshell? Ayn Rand. You're wasting your time, man.



Am I to understand that you do? Many highly intelligent people devote significant proportions of their time on Earth to this very issue, and encounter considerable difficulty. [These are specialists, mind you, not armchair theorists.]
i never claimed to have some solution to poverty; i simply do not see it as the problem that many do (plz don't twist that to imply i like poverty or am some asshole, tho i expect that will happen)

almost midnight / gg logout and hit the hay, may come elaborate more tomorrow (if 3,4 would actually care to hear what i have to say; PA, we're all very, very aware of how you see me, thnx. regardless of our differing ideologies, i find it hard to believe you think i'm just trolling. if you consider my pov sincere, then, frankly, you come across like an asshole and, for the billionth time, far too immature to be a moderator)

[quick-edit: there will always be worse-offs, and the proportion of people living in 'poverty' today is FAR less than it was 100 years ago; considering we've doubled the global population in, what, 3-4 decades, i think that's a mighty fine accomplishment. the gist of where i'm coming from is that things are far, far better than they were, and they're only getting better; others (QWE comes to mind) could elaborate on the idea(reality?) of the upcoming post-scarcity economy better than i.]
[[double-edit: poverty was put in quotations because it is an incredibly loaded word. you can have a home, food, television and phone in the US and still technically be in poverty. that said, it'll serve its purpose for this discussion i think]]
 
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i never claimed to have some solution to poverty; i simply do not see it as the problem that many do (plz don't twist that to imply i like poverty or am some asshole, tho i expect that will happen)

almost midnight / gg logout and hit the hay, may come elaborate more tomorrow (if 3,4 would actually care to hear what i have to say; PA, we're all very, very aware of how you see me, thnx. regardless of our differing ideologies, i find it hard to believe you think i'm just trolling. if you consider my pov sincere, then, frankly, you come across like an asshole and, for the billionth time, far too immature to be a moderator)

[quick-edit: there will always be worse-offs, and the proportion of people living in 'poverty' today is FAR less than it was 100 years ago; considering we've doubled the global population in, what, 3-4 decades, i think that's a mighty fine accomplishment. the gist of where i'm coming from is that things are far, far better than they were, and they're only getting better; others (QWE comes to mind) could elaborate on the idea(reality?) of the upcoming post-scarcity economy better than i.]
[[double-edit: poverty was put in quotations because it is an incredibly loaded word. you can have a home, food, television and phone in the US and still technically be in poverty. that said, it'll serve its purpose for this discussion i think]]



I'm about to get some sleep myself, but for the purposes of this discussion when I refer to the term "global poverty" I am not talking about poverty in the U.S. or Western Europe - I'm talking about poverty in India, much of South America, Haiti, Eastern Europe, Russia, China, Bangledesh, Pakistan, etc etc..
 
Relative poverty may very well always be with us, and is probably a function of the fact that individuals are grossly unequal in terms of what they bring to the table in terms of talents, abilities, advantages, and disadvantages.

Absolute poverty, on the other hand, is simply shameful. There is absolutely no reason in today's world that any person should be without access to the basic physical needs of survival. There is plenty to go around, ample infrastructure for distributing it, and above all, full global awareness of the extent of the problem. It nauseates me to hear anyone defend widespread deprivation as unavoidable, never mind ethical.
 
Many impoverished nations languish as they do mainly as a result of corruption and poor management. That is difficult to fix from the outside.
 
Relative poverty may very well always be with us, and is probably a function of the fact that individuals are grossly unequal in terms of what they bring to the table in terms of talents, abilities, advantages, and disadvantages.

Absolute poverty, on the other hand, is simply shameful. There is absolutely no reason in today's world that any person should be without access to the basic physical needs of survival. There is plenty to go around, ample infrastructure for distributing it, and above all, full global awareness of the extent of the problem. It nauseates me to hear anyone defend widespread deprivation as unavoidable, never mind ethical.


As is apparent in this thread, many people remain ignorant of both its extent and preventability. The mass-media doesn't exactly love to report on the real issues facing the world, and most Westerners are therefore unaware of starving children in Sudan who keep picking up tapeworms and dysentery over and over again because they lack clean water, they don't understand the concept of the slums in India and favelas of Brazil, or of any of the various acts of political violence against the poor and oppressed committed in various countries against the poor and underprivileged, either as a political act of suppression or simply as a result of "fuck it, I'm a rich soldier so I can rape or coerce women into sex and spread my hivs around, not like the government will even investigate, or the local media will have the balls to report it."

I do not believe bmxx to be either an idiot of any sort, or a sociopath. I believe that when confronted with the realities of this suffering experienced by those around the world, he will eventually be forced to reconcile his beliefs, if not right now, a month from now, or two years from now, but eventually this information will overpower the inclination to grasp on to the philosophies of the purely selfish, and the rationalizations they have convinced themselves and others of in order to justify their selfishness. I do not believe everybody who abides by these belief systems to be inherently selfish, but rather they have influenced by selfish individuals at a time when the influencee was most vulnerable to influence. This is largely reversible.


morpher001 said:
Many impoverished nations languish as they do mainly as a result of corruption and poor management. That is difficult to fix from the outside.


Many impoverished nations languish as they do mainly as a result of lack of resources. Many also possess resources and languish as a result of internal conflict, and many possess resources and languish as a result of extreme wealth disparity and an unwillingness to spend near insignificant amounts of funding to provide something as basic as clean water. All of these problems can be fixed from the outside, although social constructs we as a species have created make it seem more difficult than it actually is. Most solutions would require large scale collective action and a willingness by those with wealth to aid in the process. All that said, every day we are simply a mental state away from truly solving these issues. Crazy as that may sound.
 
Many impoverished nations languish as they do mainly as a result of lack of resources. Many also possess resources and languish as a result of internal conflict, and many possess resources and languish as a result of extreme wealth disparity and an unwillingness to spend near insignificant amounts of funding to provide something as basic as clean water. All of these problems can be fixed from the outside, although social constructs we as a species have created make it seem more difficult than it actually is. Most solutions would require large scale collective action and a willingness by those with wealth to aid in the process. All that said, every day we are simply a mental state away from truly solving these issues. Crazy as that may sound.

as you said - 'lack of resources', and 'internal conflict'. in today's world, the lack of local resources is EASILY overcome from a material stand-point, what holds back things like food/medicine to many areas is the local corruption/conflict/etc.
am unsure why/how that contradicts my prior sentiments. let's say you live in an area that just doesn't lend itself to local agricultural development (at least in the short-term) - then you could go somewhere else to solve the issue IF your state wasn't a mess that didn't allow this to happen in any practical manner (sudan, for example). THAT is not the fault of the poor in those areas- it is the fault of the warring factions that not only prevent the citizens from fixing their lot in life, but also prevent outside help. that type of scenario is NOT an issue of 'the lazy poor'(which is what your original quote of me on bottom of page3 was in reference to), but of a broken state. this is a different issue and a different paradigm than i was speaking of- i find it hard to believe that anyone who was giving my posts a fair read could have come to the conclusion that my point was "if only the sudanese could be more bootstrappy".
 
i find it hard to believe that anyone who was giving my posts a fair read could have come to the conclusion that my point was "if only the sudanese could be more bootstrappy".

It sure as fuck sounded like it. I don't believe you caught the term 'global poverty' the first time around. Global poverty usually refers to the Sudanese. American poverty isn't real poverty, however most would argue that the suffering of individuals who are in American or Western European poverty is still unacceptable, but it does not call for the same drastic action as actual global poverty. Debating whether or not to help the American poor is a discussion much more well suited to CE&P.



bmxx said:
as you said - 'lack of resources', and 'internal conflict'. in today's world, the lack of local resources is EASILY overcome from a material stand-point, what holds back things like food/medicine to many areas is the local corruption/conflict/etc.
am unsure why/how that contradicts my prior sentiments. let's say you live in an area that just doesn't lend itself to local agricultural development (at least in the short-term) - then you could go somewhere else to solve the issue IF your state wasn't a mess that didn't allow this to happen in any practical manner (sudan, for example). THAT is not the fault of the poor in those areas- it is the fault of the warring factions that not only prevent the citizens from fixing their lot in life, but also prevent outside help. that type of scenario is NOT an issue of 'the lazy poor'(which is what your original quote of me on bottom of page3 was in reference to), but of a broken state.


Well yes and no. Massive foreign aide would still save millions of lives in each and every one of these situations, and many of the tribes are warring due to the situation they face as far as poverty is concerned. Sides are in violent conflict for control over whatever few resources exist (think conflict diamonds) because the country lacks the infrastructure and centralized state power to determine property rights. If a foreign company owns a diamond mine, it's because they brought enough guns to keep it. Aide that leads to better infrastructure would ensure a state government powerful enough to allow individuals to own valuable property without having to worry about some dudes with an AK-47 taking it from you and enslaving your workers. The people with the AK-47's would likely stop trying to control these resources once they learn that the local military has both the firepower and inclination to stop them from squatting.

Obviously, this is extremely simplified, and factors like dictators and government corruption make action more difficult, but rest assured, there are no shortage of workarounds. The purpose was to illustrate that this type of violence is almost purely a result of extreme poverty. And there are plenty of impoverished nations that readily accept aide and foreign involvement, where money is literally the only thing standing in the way of a resolution to extreme suffering. Haiti is a prime example. As is India. One would imagine it would be exceedingly difficult to offer aide to much of the Middle East as a Westerner.

All that said, to bring it back to P&S territory, if we simply assumed that I am correct (for the purposes of this discussion), and that aide could end, or at the very least, drastically reduce global poverty, should we then do it? Or should people continue to hoard their wealth at the expense of the extremely impoverished, in the name of some egotist philosophy?
 
All that said, to bring it back to P&S territory, if we simply assumed that I am correct (for the purposes of this discussion), and that aide could end, or at the very least, drastically reduce global poverty, should we then do it? Or should people continue to hoard their wealth at the expense of the extremely impoverished, in the name of some egotist philosophy?
if someone with a fridge full of food can toss a sack of rice to someone who's starving (or, better yet, seeds/technique/etc to set them up), OF COURSE they should do it. i certainly would. should someone - whether an individual or a state - be able to use physical force to force someone's hand in this manner? no. this distinction is a very important one to me (and is also a point many misinterpret objectivist positions on; see earlier comments in the thread wherein people imply rand would not give water to a child dying of thirst. she would- the point is that the state has no right to establish itself as an intermediary in areas such as altruism)

and i want to make clear that this is an extreme scenario- the VAST majority of gov redistribution/altruism is not the gov acting as an efficient intermediary between 1st-world nations and impoverished sudanese. the manner the gov most commonly acts in these regards is to take a dollar, burn 80%+ on bureaucracy/itself, and allocate the remaining 20% in a manner far, far less respectable than rice to starving children.

you'll never catch me advocating for gov-sponsored redistribution, but you won't hear me complain about an efficient and clearly life-saving gov program of getting food/meds to people who're truly unable to survive w/o such intervention. sadly, that's such an infinitely small % of how the gov operates that it's practically irrelevant. if all the gov's programs of this nature did was things such as this, i wouldn't take issue; that is not reality tho.
 
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if someone with a fridge full of food can toss a sack of rice to someone who's starving (or, better yet, seeds/technique/etc to set them up), OF COURSE they should do it. i certainly would. should someone - whether an individual or a state - be able to use physical force to force someone's hand in this manner? no. this distinction is a very important one to me (and is also a point many misinterpret objectivist positions on; see earlier comments in the thread wherein people imply rand would not give water to a child dying of thirst. she would- the point is that the state has no right to establish itself as an intermediary in areas such as altruism)

and i want to make clear that this is an extreme scenario- the VAST majority of gov redistribution/altruism is not the gov acting as an efficient intermediary between 1st-world nations and impoverished sudanese. the manner the gov most commonly acts in these regards is to take a dollar, burn 80%+ on bureaucracy/itself, and allocate the remaining 20% in a manner far, far less respectable than rice to starving children.

you'll never catch me advocating for gov-sponsored redistribution, but you won't hear me complain about an efficient and clearly life-saving gov program of getting food/meds to people who're truly unable to survive w/o such intervention. sadly, that's such an infinitely small % of how the gov operates that it's practically irrelevant. if all the gov's programs of this nature did was things such as this, i wouldn't take issue; that is not reality tho.



That is simply the nature of taxes and government. Most of us would rather face taxes than a world without any form of government, threat of force involved in taxation be damned. Without redistribution of some kind or another, people within any nation would be subject to the aforementioned extreme suffering.

If faced with the decision between dropping the entire social safety net within our society in order to respect the individual financial freedoms of property owning individuals, and if this decision would lead to people starving to death, losing access to clean water, and therefore contributing to the outbreak of the diseases of poverty (dysentery, malaria, tapeworm, etc..), would you do it?

Or would you choose, with the knowledge that nobody within an individual nation would starve, not have access to clean water, and therefore prevent the diseases of poverty, to increase taxation, particularly of the wealthy, for the greater good? What if we can definitively say that a tax rate of 50% on all individuals living in affluent nations could definitively end global poverty? What if 50% simply prevented poverty within our own nation?

We all know that there are individuals right now who can significantly reduce, if not eliminate, global poverty with the resources they have at their disposal (see the Oxfam thread in CE&P). And yet, all this individual wealth, the highest wealth disparity we have ever had since at least the Industrial Revolution, and things are as bad or even worse than they have been before. These individuals obviously do not choose to spend their resources on global poverty with enough force to make a significant impact on it. It leaves us with a decision, and that decision is: Whose suffering do we respect more? The suffering of the Fortune 500 company owner who is forced to pay higher taxes, or the suffering of the 100,000 people the taxes on him and him alone can save?

Even if we assume that you are correct, and only 20% of our intended aide actually gets where it is supposed to get, is a 20% decrease in worldwide global poverty simply not worth it? From the 1,000,000,000 children in poverty figure posted above, we are still taking about the lives of 200,000,000 children.
 
i would rather have a bad gov than no gov (TO A DEGREE, though i'm sure most anyone would agree with this sentiment)
i don't endorse theft, but if i had to steal to eat, i wouldn't hesitate.
(apologies for not answering that the way i think you wanted me to - i don't see the point of engaging in hypotheticals like '50% taxes for safety net that doesn't fail' because that's so far from reality i think it's missing the point. if hunger could be ended worldwide by killing an innocent person, i'd be okay with that too. these types of hypotheticals aren't reality. the answer to helping, say, the sudanese, is not to up our taxes to send more food there, it's to go in there [boots on the ground] and fix something that is broken)
 
i would rather have a bad gov than no gov (TO A DEGREE, though i'm sure most anyone would agree with this sentiment)
i don't endorse theft, but if i had to steal to eat, i wouldn't hesitate.
(apologies for not answering that the way i think you wanted me to - i don't see the point of engaging in hypotheticals like '50% taxes for safety net that doesn't fail' because that's so far from reality i think it's missing the point. if hunger could be ended worldwide by killing an innocent person, i'd be okay with that too. these types of hypotheticals aren't reality. the answer to helping, say, the sudanese, is not to up our taxes to send more food there, it's to go in there [boots on the ground] and fix something that is broken)


That's why this is P&S, though. If this were CE&P, the debate would be much different, and the questions considerably less hypothetical.

The purpose of this discussion is to discuss ethics, not necessarily the feasibility of applying said ethics, which is another ballgame entirely.
 
i understand what you're getting at, but there's only one planet, and on this planet, the people who seek power tend to be very prone to corruption (whether american bureaucrats or sudanese warlords). because of this, it's very hard to endorse allowing these individuals to choose, and implement, systems of redistribution. as i said before, i'm fine with a hypothetical wherein there's a 1% tax on everyone that goes directly to people who simply cannot, through no fault of their own, escape utter misery. i'm okay with a debtor's prison for anyone who doesn't pay their 1% in that scenario. i'm not okay with a hypothetical wherein there's a variable tax rate, determined solely by the recipients' self-described need, wherein the tax is for, say, addicts' heroin supplies. most anything in between those two poles is going to require so many 'hypothetical factors' to be laid out for me to give proper answers (as example, the 50% tax rate that ensures everyone eats/has clean water, taht was mentioned earlier - why, in that hypothetical, is a 50% tax rate necessary to achieve something as relatively cheap as food/clean water? i imagine you see why i dodged answering as you wanted me to before, it would just become a game of me answering 'with a but/if', you deciding another factor, until one of us got bored or frustrated. i'm not 100.0% staunchly objectivist - in some hypotheticals i am okay with some redistribution; while ayn rand was not, she was also from a time wherein the plight of the sudanese was so far removed that it may as well have been fiction - it was not the 'globalized' world we live in today.
 
I would consider Joe Rogan to be one, but that is just me.

Word up dirty bitches. Rogan covers hrs of content on all fashions of subjects. Doesnt matter who that dude has as guests, he is a good analyzer and pretty damn articulate. His contribution is humor dirty bitches
Podcast by night. All day
 
i understand what you're getting at, but there's only one planet, and on this planet, the people who seek power tend to be very prone to corruption (whether american bureaucrats or sudanese warlords). because of this, it's very hard to endorse allowing these individuals to choose, and implement, systems of redistribution. as i said before, i'm fine with a hypothetical wherein there's a 1% tax on everyone that goes directly to people who simply cannot, through no fault of their own, escape utter misery. i'm okay with a debtor's prison for anyone who doesn't pay their 1% in that scenario. i'm not okay with a hypothetical wherein there's a variable tax rate, determined solely by the recipients' self-described need, wherein the tax is for, say, addicts' heroin supplies. most anything in between those two poles is going to require so many 'hypothetical factors' to be laid out for me to give proper answers (as example, the 50% tax rate that ensures everyone eats/has clean water, taht was mentioned earlier - why, in that hypothetical, is a 50% tax rate necessary to achieve something as relatively cheap as food/clean water? i imagine you see why i dodged answering as you wanted me to before, it would just become a game of me answering 'with a but/if', you deciding another factor, until one of us got bored or frustrated. i'm not 100.0% staunchly objectivist - in some hypotheticals i am okay with some redistribution; while ayn rand was not, she was also from a time wherein the plight of the sudanese was so far removed that it may as well have been fiction - it was not the 'globalized' world we live in today.


Sorry, I was too busy the last few days to get back to this.


I am not going on an endless stream of hypothetical questioning, but rather attempting to determine whether you are an objectivist or simply someone who opposes the causes based on a belief that corruption will negate any possible benefit of state sponsored welfare programs. Although you did not answer my questions directly, requiring a little bit of guesswork and therefore somewhat of a leap to my next point, I simply have to take it regardless.

Social welfare programs, in general, despite massive government waste and sometimes massive economic cost, still manage to improve the conditions they are attempting to alleviate. If you are upset about the (greatly exaggerated) number of incidences of welfare fraud in America, look at how various impoverished groups did before public assistance was implemented. Look at the impoverished in countries that offer public assistance versus those who do not. Regardless of whether particular social police solves a problem entirely, as they may or may not be designed to do, there can be zero doubt that most solutions involving state assistance, provided they are well researched and based on empirical evidence, tend to make a situation better for a particular group. Usually, when state and (especially) foreign aide or assistance goes terribly wrong it is due to the overwhelming amount of ignorance and presumption taken on the part of the side offering help.

That is why my "20%" question was perhaps my most important. In my (admittedly oversimplified) hypothetical, 200 million children would still be saved from imminent death. Even though the program intended 1 billion, 200 million remains such a significant number that most would deem such a program worth it, in spite of the increase in cost to those who can most afford it. Even with massive corruption, suffering is still averted on a massive scale.
 
That is why my "20%" question was perhaps my most important. In my (admittedly oversimplified) hypothetical, 200 million children would still be saved from imminent death. Even though the program intended 1 billion, 200 million remains such a significant number that most would deem such a program worth it, in spite of the increase in cost to those who can most afford it. Even with massive corruption, suffering is still averted on a massive scale.

Which raises the inevitable query: Regardless of their relative efficiency, what would bmxxx suggest as a preferable (viable) alternative to such programs? Steely-eyed psychopathy and pitiless wealth-hoarding for great justice, or...?
 
Which raises the inevitable query: Regardless of their relative efficiency, what would bmxxx suggest as a preferable (viable) alternative to such programs? Steely-eyed psychopathy and pitiless wealth-hoarding for great justice, or...?

The alternatives seem to be overthrow their government by force and instal an adminstration which will do better. (tried and failed horribly in several places)

Or allow the current tyranical power structure hold its own people hostage, to starve unless international aid money is sent. Encouraging further tyrany.

Looking the other way almost seems the most helpful thing that can be done.
 
Kind of an old thread.. Anyone here heard of George Carlin? I don't know if you could really consider him a philosopher, but he was pretty damn insightful at times
 
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