Phenobarbital as benzodiazepine substitute?

[c0rt3x]

I'm wondering myself:

Was it possible to make a benzodiazepine withdrawal bearable by taking Phenobarbital for a short period of time - let's say 1-2 - weeks - without getting (physically) addicted from Phenobarbital, too?

What do you think?

I'm Asking that question especially because one year ago I successfully quitted my GHB addiction by taking Diazepam for a week - without any problems and surprisingly easy.


(My problem at the monment is: I took quite low dosages (~10mg/d) of Diazepam during the last 2 months - and now I tried to stop with that stuff - but I get anxiety attacks when I skip my daily 10mg dosage.)

 

[MurphyClox]

I would think that you just change one "evil" for another... If you want to withdraw from GABA-agonist, you better refrain from all of them. - Murphy

 

[c0rt3x]

Yes, Muphy this possibility exists. I'm aware aware of that.


But substituting GHB with Diazepam worked great! And why should'nt work this method (substituting Diazepam with phenobarbital) as well?

 

[shibireru]

Yes, Muphy this possibility exists. I'm aware aware of that.


But substituting GHB with Diazepam worked great! And why should'nt work this method (substituting Diazepam with phenobarbital) as well?

That is extremely simplistic reasoning.

GHB acts on entirely different receptors than benzos, but benzos and barbiturates are very similar in terms of mechanism of action, with barbiturates being far more potent and dangerous.

If you simply must replace one drug with another, rather than just tapering the diazepam slowly, try opioids or clonidine + a low dose of Seroquel or something (beware of respiratory depression).

edit:

(My problem at the monment is: I took quite low dosages (~10mg/d) of Diazepam during the last 2 months - and now I tried to stop with that stuff - but I get anxiety attacks when I skip my daily 10mg dosage.)

You do NOT do that with a benzo addiction! Withdrawing from inveterate benzodiazepine use can cause death and brain damage if not done properly. Take 9 or 9.5 mgs for a while and when you feel comfortable, take 1 or .5 mgs less than that and so on until you no longer need the diazepam. You can take various supplements to help you sleep better, which is crucial to allaying the misery of an episode of benzo withdrawal. I would recommend niacinamide, melatonin, magnesium, vitamin D, glycine, and taurine.

 

[melange]

yes you can use this in a successful withdrawal, but I suggest you refrain from all usage when you are done.

 

[melange]

If you simply must replace one drug with another, rather than just tapering the diazepam slowly, try opioids or clonidine + a low dose of Seroquel or something (beware of respiratory depression).

why the fuck would you use opioids - this is retarded

 

[The Monkey Mantra]

You do NOT do that with a benzo addiction! Withdrawing from inveterate benzodiazepine use can cause death and brain damage if not done properly.

At 10 mg a day? Really? That sounds a little alarmist to me. I mean, I'm all in favor of him cutting down slowly for his own psychological health, but no, cold turkey off of 10 mg isn't gonna kill anyone. That's a pretty nominal dose.

As for opioids, yeah, you could go for a long(er) acting opioid such as bupe. If you can find an 8 mg tablet, you basically want the tiniest crumb imaginable. It'll last all day, let you sleep at night, and quit with minimal discomfort without developing a noticeable dependency. Remember, an 8 mg tablet is gonna be about 30-40 doses for a non-tolerant person. The stuff knocks me out COLD.

 

[c0rt3x]

Opioids are a good idea - but I'm allready on buprenorphine for years now (because of chronic pain) so I would need very high doses of bupre. Quetiapine is a good idea yes - I've allready thought about this.


I also know that ususally the best way is a slow reduction of the doses...

Thanks for your advice - But I did'nt start this thread in order to get some basic information about benzo. withdrawal HOW-To...

I'm just intressted in wheter or not it is possible to use Phenobarbital as a benzo. substitute in order to get a fast but "easy" withdrawal...

 

[bagochina]

I have had phenobarbital given to me on a few w/d from Klonopin mainly in the liquid form and usually on day 3-4-5 of the taper depending on how fast the taper was. The pheno. was used primarily to prevent seizures.

Seedless

 

[melange]

*facepalm

 

[dread]

Using a barbiturate for benzo withdrawal is kinda like using heroin for codeine withdrawal...

 

[immad]

Using a barbiturate for benzo withdrawal is kinda like using heroin for codeine withdrawal...

Well, it would work, wouldn't it?

 

[Hammilton]

Using a barbiturate for benzo withdrawal is kinda like using heroin for codeine withdrawal...

No, it's not. Phenobarbital is not at all like the addictive barbiturates. Phenobarb has a very low abuse potential.

Phenobarb is commonly prescribed in in-patient settings for benzo withdrawal. It's probably the most commonly used withdrawal aid.

 

[shibireru]

At 10 mg a day? Really? That sounds a little alarmist to me. I mean, I'm all in favor of him cutting down slowly for his own psychological health, but no, cold turkey off of 10 mg isn't gonna kill anyone. That's a pretty nominal dose.

I am aware. I wasn't saying that he would die, only that benzo withdrawal can cause death in some cases. At any rate, even if you're dependent on a very low dose like 10 mg, cold-turkey withdrawal is still going to cause some amount of brain damage if only a minute and insubstantial amount - and if only through sleep deprivation. But if you have a choice between a small amount of brain damage and a still smaller amount, why not choose the latter?

It's in every way more comfortable to slowly taper than to cold turkey diazepam even with relatively small doses like that.

 

[shibireru]

No, it's not. Phenobarbital is not at all like the addictive barbiturates. Phenobarb has a very low abuse potential.

Phenobarb is commonly prescribed in in-patient settings for benzo withdrawal. It's probably the most commonly used withdrawal aid.

It would still appear to be less than ideal.

 

[Hammilton]

GHB acts on entirely different receptors than benzos, but benzos and barbiturates are very similar in terms of mechanism of action, with barbiturates being far more potent and dangerous.

While benzos and barbs have more in common than either with GHB, barbiturates are definitely NOT more potent. Not even remotely close. Especially not phenobarb, for which 1/2 a gram isn't an insane dose for epilepsy. For suboxone potentiation, though, I commonly use 5-20mg, a super tiny dose. Nice too because the half life allows you to take 10mg one day anot for another 3. Not something I do anymore, though probably will again some day.

While the receptors have more in common, they actions they have are drastically different. Benzos increase the frequency of pore openings. Barbs increase the time the pore's open. Hence the reason barbs are so much more dangerous, especially in common with other depressants. Also the reason for the increased euphoria with the short acting barbs.

It's actually perfectly idea. Non-euphorigenic, long half life, makes withdrawal easy.

Opioids are the stupidest suggestion anyone could possibly make.

 

[shibireru]

Benzos increase the frequency of pore openings. Barbs increase the time the pore's open.

So it would seem the dose-response curve is exponential with barbs, whereas with benzos it levels off? errr something? ...It must perhaps be that in some sense barbs are more potent than benzos, since one must injest absurdly large quantities of benzos to induce death, but with barbs the margin between the therapeutic dose and the lethal dose is very narrow. That's what I mean when I say that barbs are more potent.

Opioids are the stupidest suggestion anyone could possibly make.

:shrugs: I likes'em... They're my solution to everything and I recommend them whenever possible...

Just out of curiosity, why are they the "stupidest suggestion anyone could possibly make"? They'd at least calm you down a bit and they're fairly hypnotic at smaller doses.

Is it just your wont to speak in hyperbolic terms?

 

[Hammilton]

No, not hyperbole. Perhaps not as stupid as cyanide, but the stupidest potentially effective suggestion.

Using a euphoric drug to help abate another addiction is moronic.

So it would seem the dose-response curve is exponential with barbs, whereas with benzos it levels off? errr something? ...It must perhaps be that in some sense barbs are more potent than benzos, since one must injest absurdly large quantities of benzos to induce death, but with barbs the margin between the therapeutic dose and the lethal dose is very narrow. That's what I mean when I say that barbs are more potent.

So you're confused about terminology? You're talking about a better therapeutic index for benzos, which is unrelated to potency.

Though it is very difficult for a weak drug to have a high therapeutic index. Very few things that are psychoactive at 500mg will have that >10K therapeutic index that some very potent things have.

 

[SupDUDES]

I'm wondering myself:

Was it possible to make a benzodiazepine withdrawal bearable by taking Phenobarbital for a short period of time - let's say 1-2 - weeks - without getting (physically) addicted from Phenobarbital, too?

What do you think?

I'm Asking that question especially because one year ago I successfully quitted my GHB addiction by taking Diazepam for a week - without any problems and surprisingly easy.


(My problem at the monment is: I took quite low dosages (~10mg/d) of Diazepam during the last 2 months - and now I tried to stop with that stuff - but I get anxiety attacks when I skip my daily 10mg dosage.)

You're on 10mg diazepam daily for a total duration of 60 days. Reduce your total daily dose of diazepam by 5 mg the first week, this should be an alright rate of reduction given your duration of diazepam abuse. Then wait 2 week, cut your total daily dose by 1 mg every week. All in all, you got 12 weeks to get off diazepam for good. My advice to you though is to stop all plans for the next 2 weeks, and just go cold turkey.

 

[SupDUDES]

I'm wondering myself:

Was it possible to make a benzodiazepine withdrawal bearable by taking Phenobarbital for a short period of time - let's say 1-2 - weeks - without getting (physically) addicted from Phenobarbital, too?

What do you think?

I'm Asking that question especially because one year ago I successfully quitted my GHB addiction by taking Diazepam for a week - without any problems and surprisingly easy.


(My problem at the monment is: I took quite low dosages (~10mg/d) of Diazepam during the last 2 months - and now I tried to stop with that stuff - but I get anxiety attacks when I skip my daily 10mg dosage.)

You're on 10mg diazepam daily for a total duration of 60 days. Reduce your total daily dose of diazepam by 5 mg the first week, this should be an alright rate of reduction given your duration of diazepam abuse. Then wait 2 week, cut your total daily dose by 1 mg every week. All in all, you got 12 weeks to get off diazepam for good. My advice to you though is to stop all plans for the next 2 weeks, and just go cold turkey.