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Pharming Drugs

Reminisant B

Reminisant B

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Nov 3, 2005
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What is everyones opinion on pharming drugs? (Genetically altering plants to produce or overproduce useful compounds)

Do you think this technology will ever be used (legally or illegally) to manufacture recreational drugs? or will it be so expensive (and dependant on high level research) that such technology will only be used on medically useful and legal drugs.

Would be particularly interested in opinions on whether people think changing plants to make for example MDMA would be possible and if so would ever realistically be possible.

What about altering a hardy , cold weather shrub to happily make morphine alkaloids. (Nice & Easy just like that 8) )
 
Well in a way it's already here (without the genetics). It's possible to get submerged cultures of Claviceps species to produce LSD and you can preload cacti with L-DOPA to increase the yield of mescaline severalfold. There's also using DET etc to produce 4-hydroxy DET from Psilocybe fungi.

I think it's more likely that individual enzymes will be isolated from planys, held on a fixed matrix and fed mixtures of chemicals to get them to produce drugs
 
Sedate-spuds.

I was thinking also changing potatoes to overproduce diazepam (I think its diazepam, might be another benzo) rather than its current yeild of something in the order of 10mg per field.

The laws governing the sale of such potatoes would get very interesting. Although they would have to be sold for non-human consumption or face having to been proven a safe food product.
 
You can also feed growing psilocybin mushrooms an XXT tryptamine (like DET, DiPT, MiPT, etc etc) and it will produce the 4-HO-analogue. I find that to be extremely fascinating. It really blurs the line between "natural" and "synthetic" substance.

EDIT: Oh wait, you already said that. Nevertheless...
 
yes and the sooner the better......!if homer simpson can produce 'Tomacco' it can't be that hard...lol....although i would prefer 'Tomcaine' or 'Tomeroin' or id even settle for 'Tomphetamine'...............
 
Yeah or possibly amphedra as its only a OH away from ephedra. (Although I'm sure that requires some whole new set of functions that the ephedra plant lacks. It is a nice thought though %)
 
I wonders if DPT could be converted to 4HODPT with psilocybes. The only experiment ever done was with DET, which is less bulky than the longer N-substitutions.
 
Reminisant B said:
What is everyones opinion on pharming drugs? (Genetically altering plants to produce or overproduce useful compounds)

Do you think this technology will ever be used (legally or illegally) to manufacture recreational drugs? or will it be so expensive (and dependant on high level research) that such technology will only be used on medically useful and legal drugs.

Would be particularly interested in opinions on whether people think changing plants to make for example MDMA would be possible and if so would ever realistically be possible.

What about altering a hardy , cold weather shrub to happily make morphine alkaloids. (Nice & Easy just like that 8) )
Click to expand...

unless the molecule is extremely complex it is always going to be simpler and more economic to produce it through chemical synthesis from readily available natural or otherwise starting materials. it takes a ot of plant material to produce a kilo of pure whatever, and a lot of messing about to isolate it,
As for genetic engineering I do think that we will see glyphosate resistant coca and possibly also p. somniferum , the genes for this are readily available and easily vectored into the plant genome, thanks monsanto et al.
 
I've posted a few times here about the potential for pharming, esp. with lysergamides.
It is the future, albeit for a select few in the beginning (then again, so is LSD synth). But once the plant is created, if it can look ambiguous, the cat is out of the proverbial bag.
Easier, and even less conspicuous, would be bacteria. A few mason jars of nutrient broth and bang, whatever you would like. Make it a completely innocuous bacteria, and one could just swig the entire broth. I could see this happen in the near term for certain, difficult to obtain precursors or final products.
This IS already happening in academia. Jay Keasling @ Berkeley is currently getting taxol and artimisin into bacteria instead of trees. There are other metabolic engineers out there as well, many @ MIT.
The problem with plants are obvious and numerous but there is constant work in the field and as it is so important for agriculture, the literature is much denser and protocols more established (although often really, really shitty).

unless the molecule is extremely complex it is always going to be simpler and more economic to produce it through chemical synthesis from readily available natural or otherwise starting materials. it takes a ot of plant material to produce a kilo of pure whatever, and a lot of messing about to isolate it
Click to expand...

not true at all. morphine, ephedra, LA, cocaine, thc, even mescaline is readily obtained via the plant. and this is only illicit drugs, synthesis of chiral and even marginally complex molecules is too difficult in many cases.
I forgot-safrole!

do a review search for metabolic engineering, you will be impressed with the possibilities.

f&b, i would really like to see that ref as well. Thanks
 
Last edited:
Xorkoth said:
You can also feed growing psilocybin mushrooms an XXT tryptamine (like DET, DiPT, MiPT, etc etc) and it will produce the 4-HO-analogue. I find that to be extremely fascinating. It really blurs the line between "natural" and "synthetic" substance.

EDIT: Oh wait, you already said that. Nevertheless...
Click to expand...


I read about this in TIHKAL. What I don't understand is what compound is in the mycelium that the mushroom is converting to psilocybin? Wouldn't it have to be DMT?? And where is that DMT coming from.. is the mycelium somehow converting serotonin in grass to dmt?
 
the mushrooms are perfectly capable of decarboxylating and methylating tryptophan to dmt themselves.
 
I've seen a cite from a paper about amphetamines that and the cite said something about "edgyptian jasime contains amphetamine and methamphetamine", but after the 15minute attempt I made to locate an electronic version of this source mentioned I came up emptyhanded, anyone ever hear of such a plant??
 
It's only a matter of time before the genes that code for the enzymes that produce these varieties of drugs are inserted into readily proliferating and rapid output living species...
It'll be an interesting future.
 
General alcazar said:
Do you have a ref for the claviceps cultures fastandbulbous? I never heard of that ...
Click to expand...

Contact either duck_racer or MGS, I believe they've tracked down the e-version of the paper. I've only got old photocopies that don;t contain the whole article (actually most of it is missing & I'd like an e-copy as well - must get off my arse and ask one of those two for a copy)
 
kidamnesiac said:
not true at all. morphine, ephedra, LA, cocaine, thc, even mescaline is readily obtained via the plant. and this is only illicit drugs, synthesis of chiral and even marginally complex molecules is too difficult in many cases.
I forgot-safrole!

do a review search for metabolic engineering, you will be impressed with the possibilities.
Click to expand...

which is why I said,
vecktor said:
"unless the molecule is extremely complex it is always going to be simpler and more economic to produce it through chemical synthesis from readily available natural or otherwise starting materials. it takes a lot of plant material to produce a kilo of pure whatever, and a lot of messing about to isolate it,
Click to expand...
ephedrine is made in large amounts by chemical synthesis from L-PAC, the product being easier to isolate and cheaper than ephedra extraction.
same applies to mescaline if mescaline was commercially and legally available I guarantee no one would be f****ng around with san pedro extraction.

most final product pharmceuticals, API's are not simply extracted and purified, the plant bacteria or whatever provide the starting material for synthesis. a good example is tamiflu. or the pennicilin or the mycin antibiotics.
ergolines are another example, quite a few manufacturing processes hydrolyse to LA and then add the peptide group because this is simpler and easier than trying to isolate the mixture of alkaloids from culture.

from a pharma point of view the biggest issue with all of this is the yield and product density. from bacterial cultures, grams per litre, so kilograms per run wheras chemical synthesis 1mt per run.

most API's are small molecules, simple and ameniable to synthesis I don't see this changing significantly in theimmediate future. the rise of the peptide might change this for a small part of the market.
I am not going to sel my shares in the chemical industry yet.
 
Splatt said:
I read about this in TIHKAL. What I don't understand is what compound is in the mycelium that the mushroom is converting to psilocybin? Wouldn't it have to be DMT?? And where is that DMT coming from.. is the mycelium somehow converting serotonin in grass to dmt?
Click to expand...

It is DMT that the mycelium is converting to 4-HO-DMT and related compounds. Many mushrooms also produce traces of 4-HO-NMT (baeocystin) and a few other traces, and they leave behind some of the starting DMT.

I'm not 100% sure where the DMT comes from, but it must be produced through some other mechanism of the plant.
 
Well the fecal smell of, well, feces is caused by indole compounds - surely indole must be produced by normal degradation and digestive processes by organisms. That and the amino acid tryptophan in nutritious materials, a decarboxylation and a alkylation away from DMT...
There will be enzymes to produce the DMT from both i'd imagine. It'd be interesting to feed indole (not tryptophan, it'd already been done, and it would seem it doesn't work very well because of negative feedback) to a mushroom culture to see whether it produced more psychoactive alkaloids!
 
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