Benzos Permanent Damage to GABA receptors?

[blue comet]

I took valium and ambien for four years. I have been off of them for 10.5 months after stopping them cold turkey. I dealt with the common withdrawal (extreme fatigue, cognitive impairment, hair loss, physical pain, severe anxiety and insomnia, etc) which began to improve at a slow but steady pace after two months. Once I got back to socializing and attending family events, I was able to drink beers without any problem. If I had a lot, or got very drunk, I would have BRUTAL hangovers but nothing really unbearable.

At month 5, I started taking gabapentin to deal with lingering anxiety and insomnia. Needless to say, this just made things 10x worse. Coupled with horrible side effects (the most dangerous one being borderline suicidal depression) and misinformation about this drug from my doctor, I stopped it after 7 weeks cold turkey. I was taking 1500mg-2400mg per day.

The gabapentin led to its own horrible withdrawal which are slowly going away. One thing that seems to really be affected is my ability to consume alcohol or other drugs. If I drink one or two beers, my withdrawal symptoms are revved up (mainly nerve pain and tingling on the right side of my body) and I'm unable to fall asleep for the entire night. If I drink a lot more to get drunk, I get a good buzz and can fall asleep but the drunk isn't the same. There's still a feeling of these revved up symptoms. I also sometimes will get some blurry vision out of my right eye. If I smoke weed or take opiates, it doesn't affect me the same as it once did. It increases my derealization, causes vision problems, and I just don't feel high. After 48 hours, my withdrawal symptoms will come back intensely and strong.

Did I permanently damage my GABA receptors by taking the gabapentin? This pisses me off that I can't even go out with my friends and enjoy a beer. I don't even care about the weed or opiates, I just want to be able to have a goddamn beer.

Should I expect this to heal up at some point or is this now a lifelong thing?

 

[Mracid]

To me it seems that your problem isnt lack of GABA but so much GABA that its starting to do the opposite, stimulating instead of inhibiting.

When you stop benzodiazepines, your body is in a race to create a number of GABA high enough to follow the Half life of the benzo. If it doesnt you get withdrawls. Gabapentin is a drug that increase GABA production so it should be good for benzo withdrawl BUT if you are of the rare people who have the enzyme that produce GABA stronger than the average person, by taking Gabapentin you swiched from LOW GABA levels to HIGH GABA levels creating disregulation to nearly every receptors that act indirectly on GABA.

Cannabinoids just like opiates are indirectly linked to GABA. To create euphoria it blocks GABA to inrease dopamine and create euphoria. But if you have LOT of GABA then it wont be as intense or euphoric as it can be.

If I am right then just stop drug uses (alcohol is a drug) for awhile, letting your system rebalance.

Also Low doses of alcohol are just like taking benzo, GABAa increased activity , but in higher doses it also blocks NMDA receptors which is one of the ultimate Gas pedal of your body so even if the first sedating effect is blocked if you keep drinking you will hit unconsciousness for sure.

 

[blue comet]

Hey thanks for the insight man.

I really hate this. Especially with the alcohol; I just want to be able to socialize and maybe enjoy a beer at dinner or at a happy hour. I hate how gabapentin has done this to me.

But you're right. I need to let my body heal (in the hopes this isn't permanent). This recovery process is lasting FOREVER.

I feel absolutely awful today. Bad nerve pain, nausea, derealizatiomand anxiety. I last drank Saturday night and actually did okay on Sunday. A bit of a hangover but noticeably much less severe than they have been. Then all these symptoms came when I tried to fall asleep at night.

 

[shreddedlettuce]

You obviously know that quitting benzos cold turkey is dangerous, but it also throws your whole CNS out of sync.
It's like you were on your way home but arrived and the wrong destination and now you are trying to find your way again without the help of your CNS.

I would suggest you go back onto a low dose of diazepam and don't feel guilty about it.
Just use it as if it was a "road map" to help you find the place you really want to be in.
Don't rush it or expect results quickly, but if you follow a proper dosage plan you will get a lot closer to your place than using alcohol, sure it will knock out unpleasant thoughts ........... for a few hours,, but reality always exists and you want to be on reality's side and not let it hit you in the face every time you wake up.

I really think the cold turkey is the cause of this, but that's just me.

Just do the diazepam theory I mentioned above and when you want to stop taking them taper off them properly and embrace reality with all your "facilities" running as best you can.

And take it from there.

Don't worry now about what you will do when you get to that stage, it will just make the whole process impossible.

Take it slow and sure, that is all you need to think about.

 

[jammin83]

Benzos are a bad idea but you know what I think. Probably ok every blue moon. But not all the time. I would be surprised if you didn't start feeling a little better soon. Have you improved at all? Im a year in and feeling better than I was but still messed up. Maybe not encouraging, but it gets better. Most people do. You will kill yourself with that shit. I know, I didn't believe it until a made some improvements. No doubt, it's a slow burn.

 

[shreddedlettuce]

Benzos are a bad idea but you know what I think. Probably ok every blue moon. But not all the time. I would be surprised if you didn't start feeling a little better soon. Have you improved at all? Im a year in and feeling better than I was but still messed up. Maybe not encouraging, but it gets better. Most people do. You will kill yourself with that shit. I know, I didn't believe it until a made some improvements. No doubt, it's a slow burn.

I agree with stopping benzo theory, but what does he start instead to fill the gap?
Until a person finds out what inspires them and makes them feel good about themselves it is too overwhelming just to say stop and all will be OK.

Hence the alcohol use and feeling shitty every single time reality kicks in. Life is like a treadmill when in this state of mind and I honestly feel that after 10 months the underlying issues haven't become apparent and quitting valium cold turkey was a mistake that can be fixed.

They were prescribed for a reason and the reason wasn't resolved after 10 months.................. so it might take a few more months or longer to know what "to start doing".

I'm not saying start taking valium, I'm saying if you started taking valium for the right reasons then you also need to stop taking them in the correct manner also.

Just do it properly and don't expect quick fixes or feel guilty about taking prescribed medication that is obviously needed in this case.

But hey, this is just what I think will help, that is all.

 

[Mracid]

Things are RARELY permanent. When i was 15 , I'm now 18, I did an INTENSE 25B-NBOMe trip as an initiation to psychedelics, bad idea. The dose i took was equivalent to 350-400 ug LSD since it was 1250ug and its 3 times less potent than LSD. After that trip I had REALLY INTENSE visuals sober and acid like experiance on weed for at least a year ! Thought the whole year; Damn I hope I dont get tired of these visuals cuz if I do they are Permanent (at that time i thought just like you that it could be permanent). Well when I hit 17 I had nearly no visuals sober and the same level of visuals I had sober the first year when I vape weed.

Sometimes we feel like a period of time will last forever but nothing does its only an illusion caused by the mind. It's even worst with physical conditions like anxiety and i know that I have GAD and SA and DEBILITATING insomnia, 3-5hrs sleep/night. Still even with all those conditions I find periods where I feel great !

 

[blue comet]

Thanks for the replies all. Just to clarify my story...

I took Valium and Ambien for four years for sleep and some anxiety, although I just took both at night as one didn't work on its own. I originally took Xanax for this but switched to Valium after a few months because Xanax left me too groggy in the morning.

When tolerance withdrawals and feeling "off" finally surfaced last year, I knew it was time to get off the medications. After failing several tapers, I quit cold turkey. The first four weeks were a real brutal acute stage but then things got tolerable. I had severe fatigue, cognitive impairment, severe insomnia and anxiety, etc.

Eventually I got a job and was getting back on track. When I stared work I struggled because of the lack of sleep. I went to my outpatient center and asked for possible short term medication options. After two visits and long discussions, I started gabapentin on a short term basis at 1200mg per day. Needless to say it messed me up quick and it took a month to realize that this was the culprit. After going through countless ER visits and doctor visits, I finally stopped it at the end of March (I only used it for seven weeks).

Getting off gabapentin led to withdrawal that made getting off benzodiazepines seem like a piece of cake. I had HORRIBLE physical symptoms (nonstop rapid heart rate, pins and needles, nerve pain, endless shakiness) and torturous psychological symptoms (de realization, irrational fears, depression, cognitive impairment).

Things have improved greatly in the past four months but the symptoms that remain are still crippling. I have severe cognitive impairment and struggle when I socialize. I still have bouts of derealization and irrational fears.

My physical symptoms are usually at bay with the exception of a slightly high heart rate. All these symptoms are revved up after I take a substance (alcohol, weed, opiates). These symptoms usually won't rev up until a day or two later.

I feel mentally unhealthy. I feel crazy with these irrational fears. I feel stupid with this cog fog. All I want to do is be able to go socialize with my friends and have a beer.

Gabapentin really screwed me up. I'm worse now than I was in January. I just need this to end; I need my sanitary and life back.

On the thoughts of reinstating Valium or gabapentin, I have tried both at low doses and after one dose it totally fucked my system up. Makes cognitive impairment and derealization much worse after it wears off and it lasts for about a week.

 

[shreddedlettuce]

Thanks for the clarification.
Social anxiety can be treated with medication, but treatment would be more effective when the right medication is used in conjunction with cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT).

After reading your post above you could also be suffering from "social phobia" also.

There is a lot of information on treatment for this condition on the internet.

I know that Clobazam is often prescribed for Social Anxiety, but I have no personal experience with this medication, but we do process quite a few scripts for Urbanol on a regular basis.
You might want to read up on it.

Ultimately a professional diagnosis and treatment plan would be the best bet for you, but let me know if there is anything I can help you with by pointing you in the right direction.

Good luck and keep us updated.

SL

 

[adder]

When you stop benzodiazepines, your body is in a race to create a number of GABA high enough to follow the Half life of the benzo. If it doesnt you get withdrawls. Gabapentin is a drug that increase GABA production so it should be good for benzo withdrawl BUT if you are of the rare people who have the enzyme that produce GABA stronger than the average person, by taking Gabapentin you swiched from LOW GABA levels to HIGH GABA levels creating disregulation to nearly every receptors that act indirectly on GABA.

That's not quite what happens when you quit benzodiazepines after long-term dependence. The problem is likely that GABA receptors are unable to effectively work in agonist conformation and they're mostly working in antagonist conformation, thus taking any GABAergic is going to make everything worse unless you take a huge dose, but then again once it wears off, you will suffer even more. This is why drinking alcohol or taking GABAergics like gabapentin without tapering off before quitting is not a good idea. Sometimes people hit a time when they take huge amounts of benzodiazepines and they don't work any more at all. I took benzodiazepines for 9 years and almost for the last 6 years I took 6mg of clonazepam a day, it wasn't working as it would for a benzodiazepine-naive person. I could no longer experience anxiety relief from it, it was still working somehow because when I didn't take it, I would feel like shit, but even if I took it, it didn't take away all withdrawal symptoms. Another problem is that when you quit benzodiazepines, you suddenly suffer from NMDA channels working in overdrive as your body kept producing more and more glutamate to compensate for increased GABA levels. When you stop taking benzodiazepines, this won't immediately fix itself. I think a lot of weird neurological symptoms during benzodiazepine withdrawal are due to too much glutamate and not enough GABA to counteract it. That's why you should never abruptly quit benzodiazepines if you've taken them for years. I'm sure recovery is much slower if you quit cold turkey and the withdrawal is much more painful.

I can perfectly understand feeling weird in social situations when everyone is drinking alcohol and gets disinhibited, and you're standing there sober (even though I don't enjoy alcohol much anyway). But there is nothing you can do about it. I've been off benzodiazepines for almost 2 years now and I still wouldn't risk drinking one beer, it's just not worth it. Yes, I am sometimes standing there feeling weird among people drinking beer, vodka, and snorting RC's, but more often I'm actually sitting at home alone as I don't really know too many people who don't take drugs at all, but I'm also working on changing that. There was one situation 7 months or so after I quit clonazepam when I drank 2 or 3 beers, I was abroad away from home and had problems finding a job, well, after that not only I didn't find a job, I couldn't go out at all, not to mention talking to strangers. So you should give it time, a lot of time, not just a few months.

 

[Mracid]

So basically i got the what but not how it happened precisely? Good for me ! I find it Interesting the effect of longterm benzo use on GABAa receptors when quit cold turkey. More precisely the opposite response to GABA! (Specially since its the only medicine my doc allows me and i dont tolerate antidepressants).

Im glad i learned something that might help me when ill have to stop benzo.

 

[blue comet]

I took benzos and ambien to treat anxiety and insomnia that resulted from a pituitary condition that I was getting treatment for. The condition, and the medication I was on, caused the social anxiety and insomnia.

I would be good right now if it wasn't for the gabapentin. It's hard to get through the days but I'm doing my best to stay optimistic. I have such a hard time thinking and talking to people at work and it's really brutal. I was doing just fine at this new job before gabapentin.

 

[shreddedlettuce]

I took benzos and ambien to treat anxiety and insomnia that resulted from a pituitary condition that I was getting treatment for.

Now it is starting to make sense to me.
I was wondering why gabapentin was added and now I know.
You can PM me if you like - I would be happy to try and help you find the answers you are looking for.

I wouldn't want to give any suggestions without knowing all facts of the condition and the treatment you received. I might have the answers or I might not, but after reading your latest post I would like to at least try and give you the correct information.

It isn't just a "benzo" issue and I originally thought it was when I responded earlier in this thread.
You have made it much clearer for me now and therefore finding the best options for you would be more than just "trial and error" and a more scientific approach would need to be taken to have a positive impact on your life.

I hope you do PM me sooner rather than later.

Thanks again for the clarification in your post above this one, kinda like finding that missing piece to the puzzle, that's what I felt after reading it.

All the best.

SL

 

[blue comet]

.....

 

[Spadez87]

I took various benzos for 11 years. At one point I was taking 180 mgs a day of Valium. I stopped about a year ago. What worked for me to speed up healing was not using any substance at all that worked On GABA. No booze no chamomile tea even. To Let the receptors return to normal you gotta let them rest.

 

[Mracid]

Noopept might help, since it's not a stimulant and it usually helps regulate some cognitive impairements caused by benzo and alzheimer. It can also help with anxiety and depression but at higher dose. low dose is mostly a brain booster. It is a Prodrug (drug that changes in the body and that is inactive) of an endogenus (found in the body) peptide, so technically it is a nutritional supplement. A-GPC is also good since its an Acetylcholine source and its always good (this one is found in milk) and is also a nutritional supplement.

Both together and seperated are good to clear cognitive impairement and possibly depressive state. I'd stay sober for a while before using them tho simply to recalibrate you system because gabapentin at that dose disturb ion channels pretty good. Enjoy life sober with the discomfort it comes with, it will only desensitise you to them. Then when you feel ready try Noopept and/or A-GCP, i can tell you this thing is magic.

 

[blue comet]

Thanks MrAcid, I'll check it out.

I've tried a lot of remedies over the past four and a half months that haven't really helped. In the beginning, I had some seroquel and depakote on hand to help with things, but they provided only a little of bit to help sleeping. I only took them sparingly because I didn't want to have any problems or side effects from those things. Based upon other posts here and other readings, I also had tried magnesium (both oxide and citrate), vitamin B12 (both pills and shots), painkillers (for nerve pain), and weed (just for fun). All seemed to rev up symptoms and make me feel worse, although magnesium oxide may have contributed to making me feel better the next day. I'm kinda curious to try it again but am nervous about it instantly revving up my symptoms again. I took magnesium citrate last Friday and it really revved up my anxiety and OCD.

I also tried to reinstate the gabapentin. I took one 100mg pill two and a half weeks ago just to see if they would stop the symptoms, and aside from SLIGHTLY lowing my heart rate, it didn't provide much help. It actually instantly brought back my depression. 48 hours later it sent me into a HUGE funk that caused me to miss a week of work. I've seen to have broken out of it though.

Even caffeine is bothering me. I had two cups today (I usually have one) and have been pretty edgy in terms of symptoms since.

So, basically, EVERYTHING affects me. Which is frustrating, because six months ago before I started gabapentin, NOTHING affected me

 

[blue comet]

I took various benzos for 11 years. At one point I was taking 180 mgs a day of Valium. I stopped about a year ago. What worked for me to speed up healing was not using any substance at all that worked On GABA. No booze no chamomile tea even. To Let the receptors return to normal you gotta let them rest.

How are you feeling now? Do you still have symptoms lingering?

 

[legaluser]

try taking 5-htp, not while drinking or using alot of certain drugs or its damaging, but taking it every off day that your not using, and taking omega 3 tuna oil, it will help heal your brain i promise you. as well as a good vitamin regimen.

 

[adder]

I second that you should abstain from all substances that affect GABA and/or glutamate before you start feeling better at least for half a year or more. Caffeine is a GABA antagonist, so it will lower your GABA levels and lead to increased withdrawal symptoms. Cannabis will do the same as it reduces GABA release. All stimulants affecting monoamine levels are a big no-no as they will add to excitatory overdrive. Alcohol has a wide spectrum of effects impacting both GABA and NMDA receptors, so it will make withdrawal worse. At first it may alleviate some symptoms if you drink enough, but once it wears off, you're going to suffer even more. NMDA antagonist dissociatives are another class of compounds that can alleviate symptoms at first, but they will aggravate the withdrawal once the effects wear off.

I'm not really sure about nootropics like piracetam. They may have some modulatory effect on NMDA receptors or increase glutamatergic neurotransmission indirectly. From what I remember, 2 years ago when I took piracetam after using DXM at low doses for a week or so, it increased my anxiety and depression. However, I've been on 600-1200mg of piracetam for a couple of months now again and it seems to help me concentrate better a tiny bit. It's been almost 2 years since I quit benzodiazepines and I can drink two cups of weak coffee a day with no big problems, however, caffeine still affects me more strongly than it used to and I abstained from it during the first year after quitting. I'm also kind of addicted to tobacco snuff and it sometimes makes me anxious if I take too much, so staying away from tobacco may be a good idea too.