People who don't do drugs are missing out

[Jimboach]

*sighs*

You're breaking my heart here.

No more than you breaking mine with your crazy talk. You and alasdairm....harumph.

 

[spacefacethebassace]

People who don't do drugs are missing out on all kinds of shit. But then, so are junkies and crackheads.

How about, every time you make a decision to do something, you just made a decision to NOT do an infinite number of other things. So whether you choose to do drugs or not doesn't matter, there is still an infinity of experience available out there.

It's an intensely personal thing...I mean, some people who choose not to do drugs are missing out on the latent schizophrenia they never knew they had. Some people who do use drugs probably wish they had never even heard of them in the first place.

In the end, nobody misses out though, because we are all one spirit experiencing itself subjectively through multiple physical entities.

 

[acidicweed_69]

hmmm well ill add my opinion lol i honestly think people who dont do drugs are missing out. NO, im not saying i dont respect non-drug users and YES, i hav friends who dont do drugs

however, nothing i hav ever felt "natrually" can compare to the non-stop laughter of being stoned off my head, or the visuals ive seen of clouds swhirling in rainbows of lsd ect.. did i mention the 'instant-love' and euphoria of mdma

yes, there is much satisfaction ppl can get from things other then drugs, i get this satisfaction too (particurly from relationships), however i think drugs are soemthing that are so different from the sober state that most ppl shud try at least one, at least once.

 

[purplefirefly]

^^

Here we go again.

All of those experiences are subjective to YOU and you alone. You can't say that other people are most definitely going to have that experience can you?

Now as for "try at least once, at least once", well what drug would you suggest they try? Every drug is different, so how would trying at least once ensure that they had a good experience?


*Please give me the willpower to stop posting in this thread*

 

[swifty]

however, nothing i hav ever felt "natrually" can compare to the non-stop laughter of being stoned off my head, or the visuals ive seen of clouds swhirling in rainbows of lsd ect.. did i mention the 'instant-love' and euphoria of mdma

No drug has ever given me the feeling that seeing my son being born gave me.

everything in life is completely subjective, it's all based on your perception of something is based entirely on the circumstances that had shaped your life, and your position of life on the whole. A millionaires perception of a homeless man is going to be completly different to a homeless man's perception of a millionaire, does that mean that either man has the right or wrong view? Hell no, all it means is that the events that have taken place to put them where they are have differed from one end of the spectrum to the other. Maybe the homeless man is happy in life, maybe the millionaire isn't, but the millionaire will judge the homeless man to be unhappy because he considers him to be worse off in not having a house.

Therefor no-one can ever say that someone is better off for doing or not doing something, your opinion, is just that. Only the person who's life it is has the abilty to decide whether or not they are better or worse of for the experience

Shit...

 

[pennywise]

that is the first time it made sense, i see what you are saying....but again...it is about what WE think they are missing out on, and like felix said, you are just nitpicking.

I don't necessarily see it as nitpicking, because the statement/argument being made is absolute. To say definitively, in all cases, that people are "missing out" is, I think, incorrect.

However, given that most of the time drugs affect people in a similar way, and that in my experience the result is a pleasurable one, I do agree that people who never do drugs are indeed foregoing pleasure. It seems correct.

But...

Since all individuals are different, with different values and different preferences, I think it is impossible to say that they are necessarily experiencing less pleasure than someone who does use drugs.

It's something that is really impossible to quantify, and thus it is impossible to make any definitive statement one way or the other.

 

[DragonFly31]

^^ agreed

yet garuda does have a point when he says,

You wouldn't have the pain of divorce, more money and less emotional baggage if you had never gotten married.
Some people would no doubt have led better, happier lives if they had never fallen in love. That might not be the case for either you or me, but for someone else, you never know.

hence coming back to the point, it might be hypocritical to say, people who never experience love are missing out.

Undoubtedly love must be an emotion that has to be experienced in human life - even if there are many dangers to feeling it.

I suppose it could be argued that love is an inherent part of any individual's life, whereas drugs aren't.

Also, that there are far more dangers with taking drugs than there are feeling love?...

 

[garuda]

Also, that there are far more dangers with taking drugs than there are feeling love?...

I don't think so, love gone wrong can destroy your emotional and psychological wellbeing, destroy you financially, lead to suicide, or even end with murder.

Love is risky, risky business and one wrong step or misplaced faith can ruin your whole life. But no one would ever argue that it isn't worth experiencing, we overlook the dangers in certain things because of the good it can bring.

 

[alasdairm]

I'm going to buy alasdairm a D.A.R.E t-shirt since he's so against drugs.

if you think i'm anti drug, you really haven't been listening at all. you don't know me...

it is about what WE think they are missing out on

this is, i believe, the absolute crux of the argument.

i believe there's a consensus on the quantitative issue - that if you don't do 'x' you are 'missing out' on 'x' by definition, for any value of 'x'. agreed?

however, what's still being discussed is the qualitative effect of 'missing out' on 'x' which, i argue, can only be defined by the individual. in this sense 'missing out on' has a uniquely negative connotation - i.e. the person who is missing out is somehow worse off (for want of a better phrase) as a result or, 'wrong' (in some kind of absolute sense) for making that choice.

it's my opinion that person 'a' is in no position to tell person 'b' the worth/value of an experience to them and to suggest otherwise is, ironically, very arrogant.

simply put, i believe this discussion is entirely about the qualitative aspect of 'missing out' and there's only one person who gets to decide that - the individual in question. if they do not believe they are missing out, that is reality - they are not missing out and nothing anybody else says matters.

and like felix said, you are just nitpicking.

i don't think it's nitpicking to simply try to analyse what somebody else is saying. i think it's a little churlish to dismiss somebody's sincere attempt to understand, learn and discuss an interesting issue as nitpicking.

perhaps alasdair and pff have suffered massive addictions

i've had my ups and downs with a large variety of drugs but the extent of my experience with drugs is, i believe, irrelevant to the discussion.

i can't understand their pov otherwise.

exactly.

i mean srsly, if i like something, i want others to have it too. if i don't, i don't. im selfless like that.

with respect, i don't think that's necessarily selfless - it's possible to view such behaviour as mildly egocentric because "if i like this you have to like it and if i don't, you don't" implies (to me) a lack of respect for the other person's ability to make their own choice.

i meant to say this earlier but thanks to all involved for a vigorous discussion indeed.

alasdair

 

[Jimboach]

and if you haven't been able to pick up on my usual sarcastic tone, you don't know me either.

 

[DarthMom]

but for the umpteenth time, i never said everyone is going to like it. i have already said that, so why bring it up again and accuse me of expecting everyone to do just that, enjoy the experience? i have said from the beginning it isn't for everyone, medically and psychologically speaking.

i tried to explain this to you via pm when we chatted about it.....it is really quite simple to me. if i experience something that i like, say, caviar...i would want everyone to experience it. i would be surprised if they don't like it, but how is that arrogant? again, nitpicking by calling me arrogant for such a simple sentiment.

i am not being churlish in dismissing you at nitpicking, i am sincerely curious as to why you are misreading what i am saying. i am flabbergasted that you just don't get my point, to be honest. indeed, frankly i find you and purplefirefly quite rude for misstating my intents, and being deliberately obtuse in comprehending what i feel is a very simple statement. and then, reading more into it and accusing me of doing it in a supercilious manner

i too love a good debate, but i can't stand when my words are twisted, or i am accused of something that is untrue

also, you picked that quote about you possibly suffering an addiction and took it out of context. i don't really wonder, i know it is irrelevant.

 

[9mmCensor]

people that do drugs are missing out on sobriety.

 

[lastregrets]

let's make sure we're quite clear here.

if somebody's never tried drugs, then there's no way they can tell you that your drug-taking experience is somehow invalid (for want of a better word). we agree on this.

alasdair

thats true.
you can't judge what you haven't done.

it's like.. saying bungee jumping is unsafe therefore u shouldn't do it.

Life is pretty much full of risk. you just have to decide which ones you're taking.

 

[purplefirefly]

but for the umpteenth time, i never said everyone is going to like it. i have already said that, so why bring it up again and accuse me of expecting everyone to do just that, enjoy the experience? i have said from the beginning it isn't for everyone, medically and psychologically speaking.

i tried to explain this to you via pm when we chatted about it.....it is really quite simple to me. if i experience something that i like, say, caviar...i would want everyone to experience it. i would be surprised if they don't like it, but how is that arrogant? again, nitpicking by calling me arrogant for such a simple sentiment.

i am not being churlish in dismissing you at nitpicking, i am sincerely curious as to why you are misreading what i am saying. i am flabbergasted that you just don't get my point, to be honest. indeed, frankly i find you and purplefirefly quite rude for misstating my intents, and being deliberately obtuse in comprehending what i feel is a very simple statement. and then, reading more into it and accusing me of doing it in a supercilious manner

i too love a good debate, but i can't stand when my words are twisted, or i am accused of something that is untrue

also, you picked that quote about you possibly suffering an addiction and took it out of context. i don't really wonder, i know it is irrelevant.

You have been quite rude as well.

I never mistated your intents, in fact, I actually asked you several questions about what you had written, and you went off and made all types of presumptions to which you know nothing about. Because I don't agree with every point you have made that makes me "anti drug" as well as rude?

I'm not sure how I missed the fact that you implied that I could possibly have dealt with addiction but somehow I did. I have never been addicted to any sort of substance, chemical or otherwise. I have no idea where you even got that from, but I don't appreciate it one bit!

It must be really hard knowing it all. 8(

 

[Jimboach]

^It really is tough. There's haters out there that disagree for no other reason than pure jealousy of our superior intellect.

Yes, i'm lumping myself with DM. As you might imagine, I walk everywhere with a graduation cap on, constantly, therefore, I have to be a genius.

 

[purplefirefly]

^^

For the first time in my life I think I am actually speechless.

I thought drug users who want to be accepted would be more open to different ideas.

 

[DragonFly31]

For me, alasdairm in his last post has completely explained the way I felt about this, without being able to put it into words anywhere near as well as he did.

However...

it's my opinion that person 'a' is in no position to tell person 'b' the worth/value of an experience to them and to suggest otherwise is, ironically, very arrogant.

I have a very good friend, whom I know extremely well. We've grown up together and are very alike, yet one day I went off to college, he did not. I want him to experience MDMA because I know his first time will be a revelation, a revolution just like it was for me.

simply put, i believe this discussion is entirely about the qualitative aspect of 'missing out' and there's only one person who gets to decide that - the individual in question. if they do not believe they are missing out, that is reality - they are not missing out and nothing anybody else says matters.

This can't be true though! How can we become better people if we only look our own narrow way? It would be more than arrogant to think that just because we made a choice, or believe something, that the opposite of that choice is necessarily the wrong one, for us or otherwise.

Even if one believes one is not missing out, that is not necessarily true in an absolute sense.

 

[alasdairm]

For me, alasdairm in his last post has completely explained the way I felt about this, without being able to put it into words anywhere near as well as he did.

thank you.

However...

there's always a 'but'

I have a very good friend, whom I know extremely well. We've grown up together and are very alike, yet one day I went off to college, he did not. I want him to experience MDMA because I know his first time will be a revelation, a revolution just like it was for me.

i'd argue that, unless you can see into the future, there's no way you can know this. you can probably guess - better than anybody - how he'll react to the experience but you can not know for sure because there will be variables at play which you don't even know about yet (because they're in the future).

How can we become better people if we only look our own narrow way?

who's to say our own way is necessarily 'narrow'? indeed - and i recognise this discussion will eventually lead us to p&s territory - choosing not to experience (or, if you prefer "to miss out on") one thing (a drug, for example) may set in motion events which cause us to experience something which impacts our life in a rather (more) profound way.

e.g. if, one time, i took the drug, i would have had a wonderful, spiritually rich psychedelic experience which changed my life forever. however, i chose not to take it and ended up going to the corner store for ice-cream where i met the love of my life...

It would be more than arrogant to think that just because we made a choice, or believe something, that the opposite of that choice is necessarily the wrong one...

sure - i don't see anybody arguing otherwise.

Even if one believes one is not missing out, that is not necessarily true in an absolute sense.

i'm inclined to agree, i think you're basically saying:

there's a consensus on the quantitative issue - that if you don't do 'x' you are 'missing out' on 'x' by definition, for any value of 'x'.

regards

alasdair

 

[DragonFly31]

I think we agree on most points, except that very last one; I'm disagreeing with you when you said, '

if they do not believe they are missing out, that is reality - they are not missing out and nothing anybody else says matters.

Just because they think they are not missing out, this is not necessarily true in an absolute sense. It can be argued that if they make this choice then it does not really matter what could or would have happened if they had made the opposite one, but then how can we ever see past our choices? Or improve the ones we make daily for that matter, if we always believe we make the right one constantly?

What if you chose not to take a drug and rather than meet the love of your life around the corner you just sat on your sofa watching mind-numbing shows, whereas if you'd eaten that tab of acid you'd have gone on to be the next Tim Leary?...

While someone able minded would probably be able to have a good guess at whether drugs are "for" them or not, what about all those souls who could be 'enlightened' by the drugs experience, and equate us (psychonauts or whatever) with the daemons of hell in their unforgivable ignorance?...

 

[DarthMom]

You have been quite rude as well.

I never mistated your intents, in fact, I actually asked you several questions about what you had written, and you went off and made all types of presumptions to which you know nothing about. Because I don't agree with every point you have made that makes me "anti drug" as well as rude?

I'm not sure how I missed the fact that you implied that I could possibly have dealt with addiction but somehow I did. I have never been addicted to any sort of substance, chemical or otherwise. I have no idea where you even got that from, but I don't appreciate it one bit!

It must be really hard knowing it all. 8(

alisdair and i have finished this conversation via pm, and i am done with you too, but yet again, read my posts please, you showed yet again, you don't.

i said in my previous post that i did NOT assume you had drug addictions, that was taken out of context.

i am done here, my arrogant ass has to go walking around with jimboach and myhigherself mocking all non users, and there are quite a few so i better get a move on. if you would like to pm me your address for details we could get you over and done with first that would be great

tia