Pentagon to Allow Transgender Individuals to Enlist Despite Trump Objections

[tathra]

As I recall the seals are male only. Now that might well have changed since I last checked. But if it's still the case then way I see it you can't have it both ways. If you identify as female you can't then serve in the seals. It's playing the system.

everything that was traditionally male-only, like combat MOSes and special forces, was opened to females as of jan 2016. so no, its not playing the system, not anymore. the only thing in the military thats still male-only is the draft, and feminists have been suing to correct that, which the pentagon supports. excluding transgenders, then, would allow one to play the system and be easily excluded from service if the draft were to be reinstated.

 

[JessFR]

Yeah but the draft isn't gonna come back for the foreseeable future. Something totally unexpected would have to happen so severe that this would be one of the least of our worries.

I thought it might have change but couldn't remember. It was the case some years back. I thought there might have been something that had happened fairly recently related to it but couldn't remember.

Regardless, that's fair enough then. In that case I don't care.

 

[Droppersneck]

I think they had the first female ranger ever pass the initial test early this year, but she ended up failing other requirements. I'm of the mindset that if a female can pass all of the tests/requirements there shouldn't be any rules against them participating. That said, we shouldn't ease up the standards for women at all, physically or mentally. Also there is something to be said about how females effect groups of men, in a combat situation. They will almost always put themselves into harms way to white knight, where they might not have with a male soldier.

While I dislike judicial activism, I see this transgender issue as quite contentious, and suiting of further legal discussion. I like That The fourth circuit court has denied the DOJs request. Presidents have been doing a lot of things with executive action, trump included, and I like that these judges are showing that it isn't final word. It's why I'm super glad trump is loading up the courts with conservatives. They will be able to oppose any liberal actions of a future president.

 

[tathra]

I'm of the mindset that if a female can pass all of the tests/requirements there shouldn't be any rules against them participating. That said, we shouldn't ease up the standards for women at all, physically or mentally.

i'm with you there. currently (or at least last i knew) the physical fitness standards differ between males and females, imo they should change the male pt requirements to "combat MOS" and the female requirements to "non-combat MOS", thus holding front line soldiers to a higher but equal standard than support soldiers.

Also there is something to be said about how females effect groups of men, in a combat situation. They will almost always put themselves into harms way to white knight, where they might not have with a male soldier.

uh, no. everyone is equal on the battlefield. as a leader, i'd put myself into harms' way to save my subordinates regardless of their gender and a lot of other NCOs feel the same. the only time you might see what you're talking about occur is if they're in a relationship, male soldiers arent going to be jumping in front of bullets or jumping on bombs because they think it'll help them get laid. i've been in all-male units and coed units, and having females in a unit does not change platoon dynamics in any way, especially not in the way you're claiming. professionalism is key in the military, if anybody were to have that kind of tendency they'd likely be seeing counseling statements until they corrected it, because sexism like that, the idea that female soldiers need protecting because they're females, is incredibly demeaning and disruptive.


and i'm still waiting for responses to this:

for argument's sake, let's go along with the idea that transgenderism is a mental disorder - why do you think that would impact a person's ability to perform a soldier's duties and impact their combat readiness? its certainly not equivalent to schizophrenia, at worst its comparable to homosexuality, which has already been proven not to affect duties or combat readiness, so why do you think transgenderism would? should intersex individuals also be banned, and why?

 

[zephyr]

People with uteruses cant fly certain planes as the G forces cause prolapse.



BP is right. Sexuality is private. Its not embarassing or shameful, just not relevant ar all.

Armed forces are supposed to be doing their job like anyone else do who cares.

As for transgenderism, the article covered what requirements there are regarding transition and the persons mental and physical health and by reading that I highly doubt theres actually going to be a sudden influx of Transgenders joining up just to get free surgery ffs.


Its really stupid that this is even a massive issue.

It probably isnt actually a big issue at all and is just floating around on social media as a trending thing like chicken sushi (its not a thing either).

It hasnt actually been mentioned at all over here on tv or newspapers or wherever.




I believe transgenderism is not a mental disorder like schizophrenia. Its more a developmental anomaly brought about by the timing of the sexual organs developing and the development and shape of the hippocampus which controls sexual impilses and personality. One does not match or communicate well with the other. Theres nothing that can be done about it and thats that.

 

[CFC]

i'm with you there. currently (or at least last i knew) the physical fitness standards differ between males and females, imo they should change the male pt requirements to "combat MOS" and the female requirements to "non-combat MOS", thus holding front line soldiers to a higher but equal standard than support soldiers.

I'd be interested to know how firmly they apply the physical fitness standards in the US. In the UK they've become a bit of a joke in some of the services, which is pretty ridiculous on any level.

 

[tathra]

I'd be interested to know how firmly they apply the physical fitness standards in the US. In the UK they've become a bit of a joke in some of the services, which is pretty ridiculous on any level.

in the army we'd do physical fitness testing at least once a year, anyone who didn't pass would have to do extra remedial training until they do pass; additionally the soldier would be flagged and unable to get promoted or attend training schools like airborne, air assault, etc, until they pass (most army training schools require passing a pt test to graduate as well). One's pt score is factored into the promotion priority list, so having a better pt score makes it more likely you'll get promoted when available positions open up.

 

[cduggles]

Apparently, you have to pass physical requirements of the gender you claim in the Navy.

As explained in the article I posted, Kristin Beck, formerly of Seal Team Six served as a male.

Navy physical requirements for transgenders

Good read.

Carry on.

 

[David Wooderson]

for argument's sake, let's go along with the idea that transgenderism is a mental disorder - why do you think that would impact a person's ability to perform a soldier's duties and impact their combat readiness? its certainly not equivalent to schizophrenia, at worst its comparable to homosexuality, which has already been proven not to affect duties or combat readiness, so why do you think transgenderism would? should intersex individuals also be banned, and why?

For the same reason we would not allow the Ultimate Warrior in his prime into the military.

Both are under extreme steroid regimens that have the ability to transform humans both mentally and physically from what they were, but are unable to serve like a normal human being without drugs during transition.

You don't need to take steroids to become gay, so your analogy does not apply.

So there have been documented cases of trannies in transition during combat?

What happens when they are pinned down and unable to receive their "hormone therapy"?

Hell why we're at it why not let the handicapped join the military?

Men are scientifically stronger than women, we are better adept for sports, when men decide to turn themselves into frankenstien's monster then they are actually giving up strength and mental stability in exchange to appear more attractive to other men.

It's the complete opposite of combat readiness.

Its kinda why women aren't required by law to enter the selective services when they turn 18 nor are they admitted to special forces.

China is probably synthing the hormones to degenerate our society and laughing their asses off in the process while they continue to murder female babies while their large populace of men get stronger.
I mean who's gonna stop them Sgt Bruce Jenner and Lieutenant Ru Paul?


^^^
Gee not to mentally stable or rational IMO, also you cannot naturally come out as a transgendered person without lots of chemicals and plastic surgery.

 

[cduggles]

DW, please read the link to navy policy that addresses many of your incorrect assertions.

You need to contribute in a more constructive way in CE&P. Work on it.

 

[David Wooderson]

DW, please read the link to navy policy that addresses many of your incorrect assertions.

You need to contribute in a more constructive way in CE&P. Work on it.

Which assertions were incorrect?

 

[JessFR]

What happens when they can't receive their hormones is irrelevant provided it doesn't affect their ability to do their job. Which I see not obvious reason it would, though you're welcome to attempt to present one. Preferably with either sources or an argument born of knowledge.

Also you're wrong. Lots of people identify as transgender with no hormones or surgery. And lots use hormones but not surgery. By its nature they're a diverse group.

If you wanna make an argument go ahead but you should at least know something about what you're argument cause otherwise you're talking out if your ass. A wise person knows what they don't know and when they shouldn't have an opinion because of it.

Having opinions on subjects you know nothing about is the sign of a fool.

Also I don't actually know one way or the other but i was given to understand that in the US women can join special forces.

Regardless though what I find most telling I'd they you obviously are uninterested in the truth. You've already decided your position for your own reasons and are looking for evidence and arguments to support it. Which is a form of ignorance and intolerance I for one have little patience for.

There's nothing wrong with not knowing, but there is something wrong with deciding what you want the truth to be then trying to argue it and prove it with no interest at all in what the reality of the situation is

 

[cduggles]

Which assertions were incorrect?

Dude, I'm not your teacher.

Either click the nice link from military.com that I posted or bug Tathra because he was in the military or utfse.

 

[zephyr]

Just thought Id point out that Tath asked for replies anout what people THOUGHT about the whole mental disorder angle etc.

Subjects like this one are a source of neverending debate, arguments, opinions and reaction to opinion.

Theres the science, biology, social and political angles all rolled into one neat little thread.

Without posts based on personal beliefs - agreeable or not- may as well just sit around, google links and post them without personal input. That wouldnt be much of a thread though.

I wonder if people who are mainly worried about the public purse paying for gender reassignments also worry about the money spent on arguing about it and flip flopping back and forth btwn trump and the pentagon.

 

[cduggles]

Considering it's .0004 to .0013 of the military healthcare budget, not particularly concerning. It's referred to as a rounding error in one of two studies done expressly to evaluate this issue.

True cost of transgender care in military

As for the disruption caused by gender transitions, the study found that fewer than 0.1 percent of military members would seek treatments that could delay deployments.

Surgery and treatment is delayed if it interferes with deployment. (See memo for Navy link-- the armed forces are fairly uniform on policy but the Navy has to cover things like diving specifically).

If you are seeking specific health care and Trump is banging on about cost, it would be nice to have data. Oh yes we do... it's not a burden.

How many transgender individuals are there in the military? How many of them want to transition? (Based on data from the Australian military, not many). How many of them want hormone therapy?

The US is battling this out with bigotry instead of actual evidence, which exists. We aren't doing anything new here. Aussies have data!

And military life doesn't allow for a great deal of privacy. The idea that you are going to have to live a lie every day is difficult for many people. People who have specific medical needs. Try hiding your sexuality from "the guys". You'll be in some very forced situations because you have almost no privacy.

It is so bizarre to me that a group that knows what stigma is like, drug users, that seeks specific and expensive medical care without stigma in different forms depending on what you believe (MAT, rehab, redesigned rehab, legalized shooting galleries, legalized marijuana, needle exchange, emergency medical care for drug-related issues like abscess care or fecal impaction, etc.) is so clear on the 'fact' that transgender individuals are just messed up people. Guess what? That's what most people think about addicts.

You can say this is about military service or whatever, but really it's not. It's as obvious as people who believe that ODs are all suicides, because who would want to live like that? Why not just let them die? You know, thin the herd.

It's hateful and disgusting.

Try reading a study or two. Or some policy. If .0013 on the high side of an almost $50 billion budget is too much, then maybe we shouldn't have encouraged transgender people, who are in the military in unknown numbers, that they could seek medical care and be honest about the reason why.

If fewer than .001 (which is what 0.1% means) want a treatment that would interfere with deployment and the deployment takes precedence, then what exactly is the real issue?

If it's military readiness and someone from Seal Team Six ffs and Tathra say it's about professionalism, then what is the real problem?

And then to throw women under the bus, nice! A man will white knight for her! Getting a good man killed!

If you haven't been in combat, you really don't have an opinion that matters much. That's what makes a difference in how you decide things. Data or your uneducated, bigoted self-important gut.

I know because I used to do this and luckily my mentors and study participants changed my narrow little mind.

So I'm looking forward to opinions about expenses and the budget and blah blah blah.

Just. say. it.

 

[Blue_Phlame]

^ I understand your position, but I disagree with your opinion on this matter.

 

[cduggles]

^I think you have made your position abundantly clear.

 

[Blue_Phlame]

I'm glad you can see it my way too.

 

[zephyr]

Cduggles, I personally dont have any worry or cause for concern over the US spending its dollar on transgenders and surgery. In Aus the armed forces have their own health insurance and cover which gives them lifetime cheap health cover. Pretty much the same as anyone who has their own private health insurance.

These days the transitioning process IS recognised and at least partially funded by medicare, dept of vet affairs and the top health insurance providers.

Its got nothing to do with what you do for a job though. Medicare is there for everyone who is an Aussie citizen. Defense and vet affairs is there for all current and past armed forces personel.

So no matter what you do, if you are transgender and decide to go through any type of psychiatric valuation, counselling, hormone therapy and also some surgical treatments, you will get basic health cover towards the cost of this. Wait times are long but private health insurance lets you skip the queue.

Americans dont have the same type of medicare so maybe thats why theres a freak out of epic proportions over pretty much fuck all.





From seeing what instantly springs to mind from other discussions elsewhere and also various around here, the hoopla against transgenders being in the armed forces seems to be the notion that its just going to be seen as a way to get this surgery done without having to fork out for it. Theres no point in bothering correcting people who jump to that conclusion since it seems Trump did too.

I think thats absolutely ridiculous myself. But there you go. Trump was on tv a while back saying some shit like they couldnt afford it. Transgenders would drive America broke etc. etc. So Im just going to put it out there that some tv coverage of Trump banging on about ignorant shit has started the whole debacle. Again.

Ive read up about the military requirements and anyone who wants to join up faces rejection should they not meet the requirements. I would not pass any of the tests.



At the end of the day, if someone wants badly enough to enlist then that person will do what it takes training wise to qualify. Having to pass fitness tests based on stats of male and female physical levels of endurance is mandatory to everyone .


As a side note, at work this week I got to dissect the mastectomy specimens of a couple of transgender patients, its recognized and covered in part by medicare so is affordable and not elective anymore. Quite an easy money earner for us in the lab. I didnt really know how effective the hirmone treatment is until I saw these massive sets of breasts covered in chest hair. Pretty amazing stuff.

 

[cduggles]

BP, I disagree vehemently with your position. If it really is your position.

The only sense I understand is that if it is your opinion, you are an ignorant and unrealistic person. Privacy in the military? Not seeking medical care? And of course your quaint notion that despite 18 other countries having transgender individuals successfully integrated in to the military, transgender individuals have a "mental disorder" and shouldn't be allowed in our military. Or they should just shut up about their sexual orientation and medical needs. Does that about cover it? Maybe you can add a few euphemisms. Make it more palatable.

Oh and buzzwords: pedophiles, public masturbation, NAMBLA, blah blah blah. Flamewar with spacejunk.

Then you whinged about political groups being protected under BLUA #4.

The other possibility is that you're just trolling.

I don't know or care which one you are doing. I've seen everything I need to know about you and your "contribution" to this thread and your posts alienating a greenlighter who is a transgender female. I would find her perspective infinitely valuable.

And as a mod, you should have been more welcoming to her. But then again, that's not exactly a Lounge area of expertise, is it?

I never will see things "your way". I outgrew that mindset.

Great talk. :D