☮ Social ☮ PD Social Distancing Tripping Thread: Viruses Can't Penetrate Hyperspace

[swilow]

^Sounds great.

I'm going to visit my family for my dad's 60th birthday, flying out today. My brother is picking me up from the airport and I'm gonna hang out with him and his wife tonight. I asked him, hey bro, are we gonna drunk tonight for St Patty's day?

His reply: "well we're not gonna get sober tonight, I can tell you that much."

My weed guy/ friend suggested we head out to kill Englishmen last night. Not knowing it was St Patrick's day, the remark seemed pretty left field. Evident by my blank wariness as response :D

Enjoy your family time Xorkoth.

 

[TheAppleCore]

Not convinced egolessness is especially desirable or useful. We are human, we have a 'thing' we label ego, it is inherent to the human condition. Some human religions seem to think ego is bad, almost sinful. I don't buy it, it's part of being human. So much of religion seems to make our nature and attributes negative but I don't want to go around thinking there's a bad part of me that needs taming or killing. It seems like self hatred. Self hatred possibly broadens in scope.

Why do you want to achieve ego loss by the way? It seems a bit overrated in certain ways. Not to be blasé about how intense and extraordinary it can be, but I'm talking about it being some sort of goal...

I used to be quite interested in it, to be honest... and me and my best tripping buddy have been to retreats and practiced zen buddhism / meditation including with a group. We tripped and meditated a lot, and we could in some sense cease to exist or be present although I guess not so totally as can happen during a trip - I am not claiming to have been a pro at this.... but my point is: much later I started wondering why it would be so worthwhile to spend that focus and attention in order to "tune out" so much. It made sense in an almost escapist way but not anymore now.

If you ask me you are much better off with practising more mindful meditation and staying present, not treating your ego like some sort of enemy. I mean it needs to shut up now and then but just integrating it and keeping it balanced seems perfectly fine and wonderful to me.

Allow me to further explain -- I said that I was "more or less challenging myself to experience ego loss", but this is not quite accurate. I realize now that satori (ego loss in the context of Zen) is impossible to invoke on purpose. It's like a hiccup, or laughter. So I'm certainly not seeking ego loss.

However, I am intensely interested in understanding myself. And, from what I gather, when a person puts enough energy into this pursuit, satori is the natural result. The "ego" which is lost here is not some function of your mind, or aspect of your personality -- it is simply a way of seeing things.

I think it's quite likely that this will eventually happen to me, because, well... I trust all the Zen masters who tell me it will. However, I couldn't care less whether or not it does. I just want to know the truth, whatever that may be. The reason I want to know the truth is that, something is blatantly wrong with how I perceive myself, and it's holding me back in a very tangible way. I find it difficult to focus on my passions in life, and it's clear that some identity issue is the root of the problem. So it's a very practical matter for me; nothing about chasing some wild natural high.

Does it have to be entirely drug-free? I've experienced complete ego death once through the combination of meditation and cannabis, and it's easy for me to get there partially now. I almost feel like it can't go all the way again though, not readily anyway, like the first time was only so intense because it was unexpected and just happened to cross some threshold that way. It was completely for real that one time though, on either side of it briefly I even had very strong tryptamine-like visuals, both geometry and visions. I can also get those quite a bit more easily now while doing this too, but they're far less vivid or complex generally.

I'm not really sure that it has to be drug-free. I was just wondering whether or not the realization would be more permanent if I arrived via sober pathways, because the sense of liberation that comes from psychedelics is often quite fleeting.

Surprising that you had such an intense peak experience without anything but cannabis and meditation!

That said, I experienced considerable ego loss today on DMT :D We had three smokes over a few hours, shared about 300mg all up. First one was wild for both, very humorous as twas my mate's first go. He was amazed and humbled and euphoric, me too. Next was mild for me, but strong for him, he was fixated on objects and highly amused by his walls.

The third smoke, the most material used (we were sharing a pipe, he wanted to trip together- highly recommended method, on tobacco and passed back and forth, communal and comforting) was utterly insane for both, but especially for me. I was utterly gone into a fractal universe of insects and alien shapes (very Giger), very strong vivid sense of prescence and forceful communication. Was told to tell everyone but not what I should be telling them

It was beautiful and terrifying, my name changed or morphed, the Me was abstract and confusing, I laughed and even sort of tearlessly cried, and wondered if I'd wet my pants (I hadn't!)

Rejuvenating. I focused a bit on my drug use, felt freed from some burdens.

My best mate really enjoyed it, too. He's older than me and an intriguing dude. He's large and intense, very alpha in a good way, always concerned about others. He was very protector like today, ensuring all was well, extending a comforting hand... I'm so pleased I came with him on his first sojourn into Insect World.

Glad to hear that you and your mate had some top shelf insectoid adventures!

I was thinking about DMT last night. Particularly with regards to the extraction process. Staying up all night extracting DMT from Mimosa hostilis while my parents were sleeping as a budding teenage psychonaut was honestly one of the most thrilling projects I can remember. Evading not only the law of the land, but the law of my household, made it even more Batman-esque. :D Sighhhh... I need to have more cool adventures. I need more cool projects.

 

[swilow]

Anything which evokes the Caped Crusader is worthwhile

You know, there's probably nothing 'wrong' with you except the insistence that something is!! I think all humans have this feeling.

Had some really cool mechanical visions yesterday, clockwork/gears and steampunk stuff.

I wonder why it was so intense... Not huge doses. There was a point where I got confused and was wondering if I was still ingesting DMT, was there a transdermal patch or something on me, the effects were getting more and more intense. So confused, I thought my name was Robert or Andrew. I had a brief moment where I got caught in these flags my mate hangs in a doorway. I actually kept feeling like I had a flag hanging from my back pocket and touching my legs. I didn't.

DMT is amazing :D

 

[swilow]

We are animals.

 

[TheAppleCore]

You know, there's probably nothing 'wrong' with you except the insistence that something is!! I think all humans have this feeling.

I've got to hand it to you, swilow... you're pretty keen. That doesn't seem far from the truth.

However, can't it be said that something is wrong with all of us? No matter how far you get, there is always room for improvement.

 

[Kaleida]

I'm not really sure that it has to be drug-free. I was just wondering whether or not the realization would be more permanent if I arrived via sober pathways, because the sense of liberation that comes from psychedelics is often quite fleeting.

Surprising that you had such an intense peak experience without anything but cannabis and meditation!

Yeah, I get where you're coming from, and especially after reading the first part of your post here. If you learn to do something while sober it's certainly going to stick better than anything you ever rely on drugs for, and I also think that reaching that point while sober could really help you understand what makes your mind work the way it does better than just reaching drastically altered states by smashing up your neurochemistry for a bit. Of course, I personally would also have to agree with the previously stated opinion then that I'd rather just do both.

And yeah, cannabis is great. I've had many experiences on it that compared completely to the classic psychedelics in strength, though hallucinogenically only when meditation is also involved. I should say though that while even the visuals were very psychedelic-like in this experience for me, the actual style of ego loss overall was a bit more like salvia. I do find salvia and psychedelics to have significant overlap in this way anyway, but a pretty notable difference for me is that the former pretty much always just makes me suddenly blip out of existence and not even really notice anything's going on until I'm suddenly able to think again, as opposed to the latter which tends to pull my attention in prior to peaking and often involves some loss of self plot or at least a feeling of its imminence. During the cannabis fueled meditation I was distinctly aware that something intense was about to happen, but it just felt like a very strong orgasmic build up of tension more than anything, and once I released I was just disappeared into white light for a moment.

Overall I don't think it was really as useful for me as a psychedelic ego loss experience can be, but in terms of just satisfying that need for spiritual release, it was definitely up there with my best experiences.... It's definitely one of those perfect set and setting things though. Recreating the exact situation and dose again and again and again has not obviously not led to the same thing reliably happening again, but some pretty interesting stuff does happen from time to time.

 

[TheAppleCore]

Your description of that meditation experience reminds me of this video. Not exactly the same sort of thing, but still an example of a profound altered state resulting from meditation alone. (Sorry guys, I know I link that channel way too much. IDK, I just like her videos.)

And yeah, cannabis is great.

This is a bit tangential, but I've been curious about cannabis in general lately, and I've gotten into the habit of asking everyone I know who uses it what they find most important / appealing in it... have any thoughts Kaledia (or anyone else)?

 

[swilow]

I've got to hand it to you, swilow... you're pretty keen. That doesn't seem far from the truth.

However, can't it be said that something is wrong with all of us? No matter how far you get, there is always room for improvement.

But improvement implies there's an objective standard against which we can measure ourselves. I don't think there is.

Of course, improving ones self is great if it makes you happy. But endless seeking to become other than what you are won't make you happy. Acceptance! I struggle with that, but I sense its worthy of attaining.

The human animal did not evolve with happiness as an aim. We evolved to be fearful and anxious, to protect ourselves. Now, we've emerged from the wild but we are still left with our animal hardware. Learning how to use it is a lifetimes work.

Then you die.

 

[Kaleida]

Your description of that meditation experience reminds me of this video. Not exactly the same sort of thing, but still an example of a profound altered state resulting from meditation alone. (Sorry guys, I know I link that channel way too much. IDK, I just like her videos.)

That experience of hers definitely does sound like it has some overlap with mine. It really did have that psychedelic healing feeling too, I even came out of it laughing like I might from any strong trip. Oddly, my first successful non-drunk out-of-body experience also began with me staring through a window, but then it just turned into a regular lucid dream scene and wasn't anything spectacular beyond the lucidity. My cannabis meditation experience wasn't quite as hallucinogenically stable as that, but there was an out-of-body aspect to it as well around the ego loss, particularly as I was coming out of it. The first perception I had appear out of the void was a vividly colorful image of one person with an extremely rapidly transforming identity, and as each one rushed by I could see the space around them beginning to warp into individually tailored environments as well, but they were just a blur overall. At one point though I latched on to a specific identity and I floated into the first-person perspective as a stable scene began to form around me. And as it all took form I realized I was having sex with a male character! I found this so euphoric and hilarious that it kind of shook me out of it, I felt my real body again and started the final descent from that point on.

This is a bit tangential, but I've been curious about cannabis in general lately, and I've gotten into the habit of asking everyone I know who uses it what they find most important / appealing in it... have any thoughts Kaledia (or anyone else)?

Hmm....

Cannabis is... interesting. I'm not sure trying to narrow it down to what I find "most" appealing about it would even satisfactorily convey the way I feel about it. I could say its versatility, but that has pretty much the same incompleteness. However, in the spirit of the question, I will try to summarize what I really love about it as simply as I possibly can.

Cannabis positively impacts my physical health. THC has been recently been suggested to support weight loss in obese animals and I strongly believe that this could apply to humans as well. In the few months after I first started smoking and immediately became an everyday stoner I lost 50 lbs despite the fact that my diet was even worse on it than it had been before, and even after years of keeping that up I never gained a pound back. That also brought me down from the edge of diabetes according to my doctor who then never brought it up again. My blood pressure is also more normal when I smoke, often being slightly high on its own but usually being exactly or close to 120/80 with cannabis. Finally, I also developed some gastrointestinal issues from my poor eating habits that I'm now more sensitive to bringing out again with the wrong foods, and cannabis can almost completely reduce the pain they cause me after a single hit of some good stuff. I never like to be without it for this reason in particular.

Cannabis positively impacts my mental health. Before I started using cannabis I was socially anxious, nearly suicidally depressed, and plagued by racing thoughts and insomnia. After I started smoking, I stopped being afraid of talking to anyone, I even scared plenty of friends by fearlessly talking to cops while high. It took me a while to get over my depression still but the cannabis helped tremendously, particularly because it reduces the perceptual impact of my emotions while still encourage me to think about them. It also makes me less likely to get angry about most things, which helps mitigate some of the negativity I had built up as a result of dealing with those problems before too. Lastly, when I smoke before bed I get my full night of sleep no problem, and this has been one of the greatest treasures of all when trying to keep my head on straight. I really can't overstate the value of a good rest, especially when it's filled with tons of interesting and trippy dreamscapes, just another fun bonus to it all.

Cannabis is so light that you can drive on it and so powerful that it can shatter your reality. Not that I would ever encourage anyone to drive on any substance without knowing themselves very well, but I drive on cannabis every single day without hesitation and don't feel it impacts my ability to do in any significant way. I feel the same way about any task I might face and will gladly take pretty much anything on high as a kite without feeling inhibited or like I'm not really being myself. Even things like complex mathematics or science or whatever seems just as easy to comprehend while high as not, and sometimes I'm even more insightful with it than normal. Nonetheless, under the right circumstances when I'm feeling open for it or relaxed, cannabis provides full blown psychedelic-like experiences encompassing a complete range of effects such as elementary and complex hallucinations and distortions or enhancements, manic euphoria, emotion and imagination intensification, ego loss, novel psychological states, out-of-body experiences, and, the classic of course, hysterical laughter. These effects also seem to be easier to achieve with experience and practice and don't ever appear to produce complete tolerance, so I can get functional high every day and get gentle geometry and simple stimulated thought tangents every night as I lie in bed if I so choose, or anything greater even and everything in between.

Cannabis can be used long-term without serious consequences. Some unlucky people seem to suffer from some, like those with a psychosis risk or that rare hyperemesis syndrome, but in general most people don't have too many really bad problems from it, and personally the worst I ever get from it is a mild headache. I also know for a fact that many, many family members of mine have been smoking regularly ranging from decades to half a century without any health problems it, so I'm truly not worried at all. So seriously, think about this. In addition to this drug doing everything for me that I've said already, I also feel completely confident that I can choose to use it every day until the day I die without any serious consequences. How can you get better than that?

There's really so much I could say about cannabis, but I think those points would probably have to be the ones that most significantly sum up how I feel about it.... Note as well that I don't think that it's perfect, and it's not my favorite drug, but it is pretty fucking fantastic. I said this earlier in a different thread: if I could only pick one drug to have ever it would be whatever my choice psychedelic is, currently LSD, but the second one would be cannabis. And I'd really be miserable without it even with the psychedelic, I'd just be even sadder if I could never have a serotonergic trip again.

Anyway, I hope that helps.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

Oh Kaleida

Cannabis. How art thou my most important of lovers.

Sometimes I smoke weed n' I'm sad; sometimes I smoke n' I'm not sad. I had to try so hard.

 

[swilow]

I like how weed makes me hungry and sleeeeeeepy and calm and thoughtful and stoned and hungry.

 

[TheAppleCore]

I knew that once I got you started, you wouldn't be able to resist writing a master's thesis on cannabis, Kaleida. Thanks for taking the time to share.

From the answers I've gotten so far, people seem to fall into a couple broad categories:

a) Those who use it for a specific, clear-cut medical purpose, and treat the other mind-altering effects as secondary, or even as undesirable side-effects. Their answers are usually fairly straightforward. This is a minority.
b) Those who appear to find it appealing on a rather instinctual level, consider it almost a basic drive like hunger or thirst, and find it difficult to succinctly articulate exactly why it is attractive, but may nonetheless attribute a number of benefits to it. This is the majority.

I personally fall under category b, which is also where I would place Kaleida's and swilow's answers.



The first medical boon that comes to mind when I think about my relationship to cannabis is fatigue. I typically need a crazy amount of sleep to feel alert during the day (like ten hours a night), but often that's unrealistic, and cannabis enables me to feel alert and refreshed with more typical sleep hours.

It also seems that my mood is more stable the longer I continue to use it.

In social settings, it shuts off the inner critic which helps me engage with other people and express myself more confidently.

if I could only pick one drug to have ever it would be whatever my choice psychedelic is, currently LSD, but the second one would be cannabis. And I'd really be miserable without it even with the psychedelic, I'd just be even sadder if I could never have a serotonergic trip again.

I'd also go with LSD as my desert island pick, but I'd be awfully tempted to say green tea, which would be a close second. Then cannabis.

 

[yepyepwoah]

Man, when able, Ive smoked weed 6.75/7days of the week. It just makes life better and what not. Mmmm.

I think I might plug 60mg MET and sniff a lot of Ketamine whilst taking a few dabs tonight. My disso tolerance has got me pretty close to wanting to IM ketamine. Who knows where I will end up sans needle phobia though.

If I had to pick a desert island psych, maybe Panelous Cyanscens mushrooms. Like 1g and you are in visionary mode. Stumbled on a field a while back, should go check it out again.

 

[Solipsis]

But improvement implies there's an objective standard against which we can measure ourselves. I don't think there is.

Of course, improving ones self is great if it makes you happy. But endless seeking to become other than what you are won't make you happy. Acceptance! I struggle with that, but I sense its worthy of attaining.

The human animal did not evolve with happiness as an aim. We evolved to be fearful and anxious, to protect ourselves. Now, we've emerged from the wild but we are still left with our animal hardware. Learning how to use it is a lifetimes work.

Then you die.

Really digging your insights bro

And TAC yeah thanks for clarifying that approach certainly seems sensible, i was just a bit thrown off by the type of ideal mentioned about something some sage did 10 years to achieve.

It's good to try and improve yourself, to try and be compassionate and mild to yourself while being critical about your actions... We must learn to live with ourselves and I kind of believe in some buddhist sentiment (unless i am mistaken) that a big part of life is also learning how to die. The ultimate way to give meaning in some ways seems guided by facing mortality and transience. A lot of my neuroses used to be about being able to deal with unpredictability and chaos and ultimately entropy, ASD related surely, but got that under control now..
It seems potentially disturbing if we will be able to make breakthroughs in the longevity of a living being, whether organically in humans or virtually / AI style in some way. A lot of people might think this is a great relief from mortality / a normal lifespan / certain death.. and I guess in enough ways it is, but it could also dramatically transform what the meaning of your life even is: how much harmony one wishes to achieve by embracing both life and death as part of a whole.

lol @ mike tyson mysteries (with actual mike tyson) - oh you adult swim

 

[Img_9999]

My first trial with IM ketamine was pretty intense and visionary.
On friday I tried it again at various dosages and never got much out of it. But at some point I got a pretty cool image, I was lying on the concrete streets of an abandoned city and dark sillhouettes of enormous buildings with sings and ads in japanese were growing around me towards a dark red sky. Cool vision, pretty cinematographic. Other than that I don't think I got much from it. Everything I experienced was kind of senseless.

 

[Kaleida]

Before this gets lost somewhere among the quotes below, I figured I'd post this here for you guys to check out: When our world turns 'upside-down,' serotonin helps us deal with it. I haven't come across the actual scientific paper it discusses yet myself but I plan to look into it, it seems pretty interesting. It sure seems like it could have pretty significant implications for trying to better understand the mechanism and value of psychedelics as well.

I knew that once I got you started, you wouldn't be able to resist writing a master's thesis on cannabis, Kaleida. Thanks for taking the time to share.

From the answers I've gotten so far, people seem to fall into a couple broad categories:

a) Those who use it for a specific, clear-cut medical purpose, and treat the other mind-altering effects as secondary, or even as undesirable side-effects. Their answers are usually fairly straightforward. This is a minority.
b) Those who appear to find it appealing on a rather instinctual level, consider it almost a basic drive like hunger or thirst, and find it difficult to succinctly articulate exactly why it is attractive, but may nonetheless attribute a number of benefits to it. This is the majority.

I personally fall under category b, which is also where I would place Kaleida's and swilow's answers.



The first medical boon that comes to mind when I think about my relationship to cannabis is fatigue. I typically need a crazy amount of sleep to feel alert during the day (like ten hours a night), but often that's unrealistic, and cannabis enables me to feel alert and refreshed with more typical sleep hours.

It also seems that my mood is more stable the longer I continue to use it.

In social settings, it shuts off the inner critic which helps me engage with other people and express myself more confidently.

Haha, I promise I really was trying to make that as short as possible, that's just not a skill I have really mastered. I'm glad you liked it anyway.

I think those observations are probably pretty accurate, I haven't really thought about it like that before but I think I could fit most cannabis users I've known into one or the other, and mostly the latter. I'm not sure if I've ever actually met anyone who just uses it to get high and doesn't think it provides any real benefits beyond recreation, even if they don't really feel they need much from it personally.

That's true too, I think I can get by with a little less sleep overall after smoking. I don't require a huge amount normally and often I get up feeling totally refreshed after like five to six hours, but I do think that my apparent natural inclination towards hypomania may contribute to this as well. Occasionally it rebounds and I get like ten or more for a little bit.

Interesting about your inner critic too. I actually haven't given as much thought as normal to why it helps me be as social as it does.... I actually sort of suspect that it might be really that, like with the other hypomanic personality dimensions, I have some natural inclination towards high confidence to begin with, but I just became sort of repressed and cynical as a result of early life experiences. Being high now does remove some of that so I suppose I could see saying it removes my inner critic too, and it just feels so nice and natural again. It does still come with some social inhibitions though, like I feel for instance that sometimes it makes me more anxious in large groups than I might be without it. But I really prefer smaller, often one-on-one discussions anyway, so that's not a huge loss for me.

I'd also go with LSD as my desert island pick, but I'd be awfully tempted to say green tea, which would be a close second. Then cannabis.

Really, green tea as a close second to LSD and over cannabis? Do you really get that much out of It? I've honestly only had green tea a few times, and I wasn't really conscious much of what it was doing to me at the time. Also there was probably no chance of me getting any stimulant effect out of it since I was also heavily consuming energy drinks at the time. I still can't really get much out of caffeine now even if I only have it like once a year, there's little to no rush (sometimes it even makes me sleepy) and then there's a heavy crash within like half an hour of consumption. But I haven't really tried it much in natural sources still, I suppose it's possible that I could tolerate it better that way....

Man, when able, Ive smoked weed 6.75/7days of the week. It just makes life better and what not. Mmmm.

I think I might plug 60mg MET and sniff a lot of Ketamine whilst taking a few dabs tonight. My disso tolerance has got me pretty close to wanting to IM ketamine. Who knows where I will end up sans needle phobia though.

If I had to pick a desert island psych, maybe Panelous Cyanscens mushrooms. Like 1g and you are in visionary mode. Stumbled on a field a while back, should go check it out again.

Yeah, it's great. I've been living a privileged stoner life. I've been baked 24/7 most of the last decade and it's barely cost me anything at all due to a convenient family setup I happened to have access to. Just in the last couple months that went away finally so I'm going through a forced adjustment now, though I knew it was coming. Gonna have to get used to actually being sober for extended periods of time again, which I could probably use.

Would love to hear how that trip went if it happened. And also yeah, mushrooms would be pretty high up on my list of picks too. I don't do them often with all the options I have, but if I could only have one psychedelic their strength would definitely be a blessing, and something I would miss with LSD. Not that LSD isn't plenty strong itself....

 

[Xorkoth]

I think the ego embodies a lot of our drives, some of which we seem to think we have transcended or ought to?

I agree fully. I think that psychedelic use, at first (in addition to the culture surrounding it), especially following early ego loss experiences, tends to produce the sentiment that the ego is a bad thing, that we should seek to obliterate it. Not saying you're saying that by the way, TAC, just that I've seen this idea a lot on the forums and in real life. To me, this idea makes no sense, although I used to say the same thing when I was younger. The ego is simply the sense of individual self, apart from the whole. To live as a human is to have an ego, the ego is what makes us each unique. Of course, the ego can come to dominate in an unhealthy way, which is why ego loss can be such a tremendous experience. I think that everyone could probably benefit from an ego loss experience in their life (for some though, psychedelics are not a good idea, unfortunately). But you can take it too far in the opposite direction too. It's important, IMO, to learn to embrace the ego. Not only is it necessary for survival, but it's pretty fucking cool a lot of the time, you get to identify parts of your human self that you love and parts you don't. With the experience of ego loss behind you, it can make it easier to objectively view qualities of your self and adjust them or embrace them, rather than be a slave to them. But to obliterate them? That will happen when we die. Until then, the best approach is the middle of the road. Understand the ego for what it is, and embrace it to live the best life possible.

However, can't it be said that something is wrong with all of us? No matter how far you get, there is always room for improvement.

We get this at work, where in yearly performance reviews, it is impossible to get 10 out of 10 in any category, because there is always room to improve. At the same time, to me this doesn't indicate that anything is wrong with us. It's just the nature of things, nothing is ever at rest, the universe itself is restless and seeks change. Life is dynamic. I think we should avoid thinking that there is something inherently wrong with us... our nature is our nature and it is just what is. To attribute "wrong" to our nature is to weaken us. If my nature as a human is "wrong", then I become a victim of my circumstances, rather than a free agent who can think, feel and behave in any way I choose.

In other words, perfection is imperfect.

We are animals.

Indeed. So, let's do it like they do on the Discovery channel!

I like how weed makes me hungry and sleeeeeeepy and calm and thoughtful and stoned and hungry.

Yeah I could have used it last night. I decided to only bring my phenibut on my trip as far as drugs go, and use it a little less than normal to begin tapering, since I know I have some degree of physical dependence to it. Well, I did it on Saturday at a lower dose, never hit my social euphoria plateau though I did feel it, felt a bit strange socially as I spent the evening with some friends but had a good time. Then yesterday was a no GABA drugs day (or, well, mostly anyway, I had some beers at my dad's birthday dinner). I realized I had been using small bits of etizolam or drinking heavily on my phenibut off-days, and it had been masking the light withdrawal somewhat, and in fact I have been feeling it even on the next day, where before I wouldn't feel it until the 3rd day. The effect was, I got into a very low-energy, brooding sort of state. Went out with family for my dad's birthday, and it wasn't until I had a few beers that I felt really relaxed and joyous. Didn't have much, I stopped after 5 nice craft beers over the course of 5 hours. But when I lost my alcohol buzz, after everyone was gone, I went back to that semi-funk state. I tried to go to bed, didn't sleep long enough the night before, and was up all night tossing and turning. I felt 100% comfortable physically, I was able to lay still and feel cozy, but my mind just wouldn't turn off. I've felt this same feeling before so I know it's from the phenibut. I kept slipping into semi-lucid dream states where I would be aware I was sort of awake for a while, then immerse totally, but it was never more than 30 minutes between times looking at the clock all the way through until my alarm went off. I felt a draw to go drink a few shots, and even felt a draw to go dose a bit of my dad's lorazepam, but glad I did neither (especially the second one). If I had had weed, I certainly would have gotten nice and high though, probably would have worked. Alas, when flying between destinations, weed isn't really an option. Actually my friend whose house I went to the other night was going to give me weed to take home, but we forgot. Ah well. I'm going there tonight again so I should be able to do that tomorrow night. The dreams were really interesting though, once again I kept going back to the same dream all night, it evolved over the course of the night but it always picked up where it left off. And again, it kept reminding me of my ibogaine dreams, same kind of world, same kind of weird vividness, same semi-magical sort of essence. I actually really enjoyed the dreaming, I just really wanted to actually sleep deeply too.

Anyway I'll be fine but yeah, looking back as I reflected during the fully awake parts of the night, I realized, damn, it's been like 2 years since I realized I had some level of physical dependence to phenibut. It's easy to lose track. It made me resolve to get off of it. When I get home I'll take baclofen on the third day, and do that cycle a couple of times... a few years back when I was in a similar situation with phenibut, I did the same and it was really easy, never had to taper off the baclofen or anything either, it just helped with phenibut withdrawal and I used it a few times until I had stepped down enough. I've just been putting it off. The good news is, though I did take a dose today, it still hasn't kicked in and it's been like 30 hours since I felt the effect wear off last, and the feeling hasn't grown since about the 12 hour point at all. I still feel totally comfortable physically, but just kind of flat and slightly anxious, but also quite thoughtful. I think this won't be bad at all. Glad to be more aware of myself than I was back in the day. Years back I'd probably be dosing phenibut constantly by now, stealing my dad's prescriptions, hell I'd probably have a benzo dependence since for the first time even I have a stash of benzos. I feel calm and rational about this now though, it's just something I have to deal with for a bit, but I feel 100% confidence in myself. It's been a case of a slow progression of using phenibut too often, using substances a bit too often in general again. But I don't need to, I just got a little carried away cuz I like being high. So, whatever, I recognize that and will adjust accordingly.

 

[perpetualdawn]

if I could only pick one drug to have ever it would be whatever my choice psychedelic is, currently LSD, but the second one would be cannabis. And I'd really be miserable without it even with the psychedelic, I'd just be even sadder if I could never have a serotonergic trip again.

I'd also go with LSD as my desert island pick, but I'd be awfully tempted to say green tea, which would be a close second. Then cannabis.

I'd pick coffee, then LSD. Coffee isn't nearly as interesting as LSD, but it sure is a good chronic drug. But then again, being stuck on a desert island isn't like being in NYC, maybe it wouldn't be much good.

Then LSD. I'd like to say ETH-LAD because I think I like it more, but LSD is so much more tried tested and true, so it would be a safer bet if I had to pack up for the desert island tomorrow.

Or maybe 5-MeO-DMT. Imagine stuck on a desert island for years with nothing but fish, coconuts and 5-MeO-DMT?

 

[TheAppleCore]

But I really prefer smaller, often one-on-one discussions

Same here. If you think about it, you get 30 seconds on average for every minute to talk, whereas in a group of six, you only get 10! :D Maybe that's why we prefer it?

Then again, sometimes it's nice to just be a listener, not a talker...

Really, green tea as a close second to LSD and over cannabis? Do you really get that much out of It?

Don't even get me started on how much I love green tea. Maybe my adenosine system is weird or something, but I really get an impressive amount of euphoria from it. Of course, a cup of tea is not nearly as dramatic an occasion as an LSD trip. But I get to drink tea virtually every single day of my life, multiple times, with zero apparent downside, other than maybe a mild caffeine dependency (although I don't even drink any until I get home from work, which isn't a problem). And theoretically I'm receiving some health benefits.

But I haven't really tried it much in natural sources still, I suppose it's possible that I could tolerate it better that way....

That's quite possible. For example, we know that the presence of L-theanine in tea modulates the effect, acting as an anxiolytic. I can attest that matcha, which I believe tends to contain more L-theanine than sencha, gives me a smoother and more transparent effect, despite both being Japanese green teas. Sencha is definitely my favorite, and is the most overtly recreational IME. I'd almost describe the come-up as a "rush", whereas I wouldn't say that about black tea.

The effect of tea is divided into two phases for me. The first effect is that it instantly melts away all negativity, leaving me in a deeply relaxed state, perfectly content to simply sit, breathe, watch, and think. That renewed optimism gives me a calm little inner space, which enables me to think about issues in my life more clearly sometimes. Or, to enjoy the simple pleasures of life without being pressured by the larger problems. That phase lasts for maybe up to an hour, and then it transitions into a more neutral stimulant effect, at which point I become more inclined to start busying myself with work or chores. This lasts a few hours, and gradually tapers off, without any perceptible crash.

I agree fully. I think that psychedelic use, at first (in addition to the culture surrounding it), especially following early ego loss experiences, tends to produce the sentiment that the ego is a bad thing, that we should seek to obliterate it. Not saying you're saying that by the way, TAC, just that I've seen this idea a lot on the forums and in real life. To me, this idea makes no sense, although I used to say the same thing when I was younger. The ego is simply the sense of individual self, apart from the whole. To live as a human is to have an ego, the ego is what makes us each unique. Of course, the ego can come to dominate in an unhealthy way, which is why ego loss can be such a tremendous experience. I think that everyone could probably benefit from an ego loss experience in their life (for some though, psychedelics are not a good idea, unfortunately). But you can take it too far in the opposite direction too. It's important, IMO, to learn to embrace the ego. Not only is it necessary for survival, but it's pretty fucking cool a lot of the time, you get to identify parts of your human self that you love and parts you don't. With the experience of ego loss behind you, it can make it easier to objectively view qualities of your self and adjust them or embrace them, rather than be a slave to them. But to obliterate them? That will happen when we die. Until then, the best approach is the middle of the road. Understand the ego for what it is, and embrace it to live the best life possible.

This is quite a sensible position. However, I think the experience of ego loss is the temporary side-effect of losing something which does deserve to be permanently obliterated; and that is, a false idea about who you really are.

After I made my previous post about ego loss, I realized that I've already been teetering on the edge of it for quite some time now. I just didn't realize it, because it was so different from what I expected based on trip reports, and Buddhist writings, etc. But for years now, I have had (while completely sober) the occasional experience of feeling that "I" completely disappear, and that my body and mind are operating as an automaton with no conscious director. I suspect that this is the precursor to the final stage of union with the totality of existence, which has never happened to me.

I think this is just the process of overcoming bad childhood programming, which leads you to believe that you're some little ghost inside your body but separate from it, rather than being a function of your organism.

 

[swilow]

On a desert island an unlimited supply of heroin would be my choice. Followed by dry socks.

Hey TAC, what did you use to master that track? Was pretty tight. I like mastering shit.