PAWS, does it ever end?

[adelphos]

This my second post and I am new here so I am hoping that now that I have jumped into making this post that someone who knows what is going on here will move this if I posted it in the wrong place. I was prescribed Morphine sr for a failed back surgery by the V.A.. They told me it was the only thing they could do because Surgery may make the pain worse. I already couldn't deal with the pain so I accepted the the diagnosis and took the Morphine sr and the morphine ir for 5.5 years. After Obama fired the director of the V.A., I was told by my primary care doctor that I may have to cut back on my Morphine. So I had to ask who is my doctor now, Obama? At this point 27 of my brothers were commiting suicide because they couldn't deal with what war did to them anymore. Needless to say I was pissed, but it got me thinking. I was on on 145 mg of the sr and I could take 15 mg of the ir every 4 hours. I rarely took the ir because I would get depressed when I stopped taking it. So I decided that I was sick of morphine, I was sick of Obama and the V.A. and sick of not being able to defecate. So I cut back from 145 mg sr to 90 mg sr and no ir at all. 6 months later I told my primary care doctor what I had done at an appointment. She assured me that that would satisfy the powers to be. Then she told me that All opiate users were being piss tested and that I would have to submit to that or stop getting morphine from the V.A. Now I'm beginning to wonder what happened to the United States that I used to live in. So I told my doctor I would consider it, but let her know that this was not going to go down well. Well I went back and forth whether to just get a new doctor outside of the V.A. and finally went in for the piss test. As I was awaiting my appointment my nurse told me that the reason they piss tested me was because they wanted to make sure I was taking the drugs they were giving me. I walked out. I am a Viet Nam Era Veteran being treated for something I never wanted and I won't put up with that. I never took more than what was prescribed to me for 5 years and then cut myself back without any assistance from the V.A. I didn't think that I deserved that, the america I grew up in, you were innocent until proven guilty, now everyone is guilty until proven innocent. So I decide I don't care how much pain I am in I will not be treated like this and I got a new doctor who set me up to withdrawal over a 45 day period. Withdrawal sucked but I lived.

Now it has been 14 months since I jumped off and brings me to my questions. I still can not sleep all night. I go to sleep at eleven every night and usually wake up somewhere between 1:00 am and 4:30 am wide awake. I usually can't get back to sleep with out staying up for a couple of hours. I don't even know what a circadian rhythm is anymore. Every day when I do wake up I feel like crap. Not complaining just being honest. Plus since I jumped off my brain is retarded. I forget what I am talking about in the middle of a sentence. I can't recall things I know I know. Is this all part of PAWS? That's my question. I have been off the Morphine for 14 months, I still have no desire to ever use that again. I still have a bunch of morphine left that I am waiting for my Pharmacy to take unused drugs in, and I honestly have never even thought of taking one. My doctor did prescribe me some sleeping pills to get my sleep pattern regulates. Big mistake, when I stopped taking the sleeping pills I went into PAWS with a vengence. I would love more information about Paws. I thought about going to na to see if they know anything, but I don't want anyone to push their program on me, so here I am. Any info would be appreciated.

 

[cj]

I am sorry you had to go through that with the VA. It's shameful the way we treat our veterans.14 months is a long time to go through PAWS but it's not unheard of unfortunately. The only real treatment I have ever heard of is too eat right, get exercise, and let time do its thing. Sorry I wish there was some magic cure I knew about.

 

[MisterNotSoClean]

I'm only at 60 days but I know that 3-4am seems to be the magic silent alarm in our bodies with paws.

I've been taking melatonin frequently which is a natural sleep aid. It didn't do shit in the early stages of wds but it definitely helps with the paws sleeplessness in my case. I still wake up at 3-4am but then I'll pretty quickly go back to sleep.

Do you have other symptoms other than the sleeplessness or is that the main one your fighting?

 

[adelphos]

CJ, thank you so much for your kindness and for answering me. I am an organic gardener and am very conscious of my diet and I drink mainly just water. I have been walking 3 miles every morning and riding my bike 8-10 miles every evening. This has helped a lot. I was only getting 1-3 hours of sleep a night, which is not enough as I have sleep apnea. I know there are no magic wands out there, if there was I'd give everyone on blue light one. Again thank you for caring and taking the time to reply to me.

 

[adelphos]

Mr.NotSoClean, Congratulations on making it 60 days! Thank you for replying. Yeah Melatonin didn't work for me either at first, nothing did. Now I take time released melatonin 10 mg. I don't know how much it helps as I don't have a problem falling asleep it's staying there, hence the time release. I actually slept for 8 hours last night. First time in over a week. Now I'm ready to charge hell with a snowball I feel so good . It helps me to know that there is a reason why I can't sleep, if that makes any sense.
The other problems I have with PAWS is memory and cloudy thinking at times. I lose thoughts sometimes while talking and all of a sudden I'm like what was I saying. I'm 59, but I'm not senile yet, I hope. I have not felt normal since I quit, don't know what normal is. It helps me though to know that this is a process, however slow it may be and that I am not alone. Thank you so much for caring. I pray that you continue to do well and be free.

 

[Moreaux]

Thank you for your service! My Dad did three tours in Vietnam. Thank God both my Dad and husband are healthy and do not have to rely on the VA. I shudder to think if that situation should ever change. I live near Camp Lejeune, NC and know so many people stuck at the mercy of the VA. It's absolutely unconscionable the way the government treats our vets...it makes my blood boil. I have watched young Marines systematically have their lives destroyed because because of its ineptitude.

PAWS is different for everyone and ranges in duration. I had severe PAWS from benzos for two years, and then lesser PAWS for a year after. Just saying as an example, many people experience PAWS for less than a year.

Melatonin is a great suggestion as it does help reestablish the circadian rhythm. It's a hormone that the body produces and is non-narcotic, available over the counter. With Melatonin less is more. Start off with 1mg and work your way up until you find a dose that works. I would not recommend exceeding 5mg, 3mg really but in PAWS you may need a little more. Take it 30 minutes before your bedtime, and try to take it consistently. If you find you are still waking up in the middle of the night try an extended release version for a while. I also recommend taking 100 mg - 200 mg of l-theanine at bedtime. It works well with Melatonin and helps with relaxation. Of course, please run these by your doctor. They are both relatively benign but you never know.

I would also address these symptoms with your doctor. It does seem like a long time to go through PAWS, but your age may also be a factor. Your body is in the process of healing itself and restoring your neurotransmitter balance, and neuroregeneration slows down with age which is why you're still experiencing it.

How is your pain doing? Are you able to function without pain killers?

Hoping you start feeling better soon!

 

[adelphos]

Moreaux, thank you for your service and love here. What you are doing here is far more valuable than anything I did as a Marine. I have been taking time release melatonin and I will tell my doctor about the l-theanine. That is why I am here because doctors don't know much about Withdrawal and PAWS. I am learning to slow down and let the process happen. That in itself has been harder than anything.

About the pain. My doctor gave me NSAID to help with pain, but I quit taking that months ago. You have to understand at the time all of this happened I was very emotionally distraught. There were too many things going on to write. I made my plan and went through with it. I needed to have my wife's family out of the picture at least while I withdrew from the drug. They were not helping as they did not understand much of our lives and seemed to me to be quite negative. So I asked their Pastor to be an advocate for me and talk to the family and ask them to leave us alone while I detoxed. As I told this pastor who I had only met 3 times before, my story he looked at me and said lets pray. He got down on his hands and knees and faced a chair, I did the same. He started to pray and and then he put his hand on the small of my back. As he was praying his hand started to get warmer and warmer until i was so hot it was almost uncomfortable. Then the warmth went up my back into my neck. I still can't believe it. When he got done praying I realized I was crying and I looked at him and he was staring at his hand and he was crying. I said, "did you feel that!?!" He said, "It got so hot I thought I was going to have to move my hand. Well that was 16 moths ago and I have not had that lightening bolt pain going from my low back into my hip and down my leg to my foot pain since. I am getting older and have arthritis and a debilitating case of carpal tunnel, but I do not have that ruptured disc pain. I don't know if intellectually I will ever be able to comprehend what happened to me. Every time I do I just get lost in silent wonder. Thankful, that's what I am

Next time you see your dad and brother please tell them "uh-Rah!" From Claypipe (my call sign) I was a 2531 field radio operator. Peace and Claypipe is out

Thanks again for the love.

 

[d3athadone]

I don't recommend you take melatonin! It will seriously fuck up your ability to sleep without it. Your brain naturally produces melatonin to sleep and when you start taking it your brain stops making it. I don't think this is a paws thing anymore. I think its a life thing. Try making changes in your activity level if you can. Do you end up having a nap during the day? I mean, lots of people I know just cant sleep. It's not necessarily about opiates. Im 3 weeks clean off a heroin iv habit and I sleep like clockwork. Maybe thats just my brain. But I've always been the type to sleep. My friends who have PTSD seem to have a hard time sleeping. Could that be part of it?

 

[Jabberwocky]

Melatonin can be used safely to help one sleep. It doesn't cause the same kind of dependency other gabaergic sleep medications can. Comparing it to opioids in regards to dependency is also a little silly, the difference is really night and day. Melatonin isn't a cure all for sure, but it can help for some.

Working on your sleep hygiene while you take melatonin is probably the best thing you could do to improve your quality of rest.

 

[Moreaux]

@adelphos - What a beautiful story I'm so glad the pain intensity is decreased.

I will certainly ask my Dad if he knows you. His call sign is Lobo - he was with 3rd Force Reacon during his tours.

Melatonin is safe and doesn't cause any withdrawal or rebound issues.

@d3athadone - melatonin is safe. It has a completely different mechanism of action than traditional sleeping pills and opiates. Melatonin is a hormone, one that the body produces to help regulate sleep cycle.

Also, regarding the duration of PAWS - it does vary for people. Age is also a factor in the duration and intensity of PAWS. Sadly, as we age our metabolic processes slow down. The OP is a Vietnam Vet so he is probably in his late fifties or beyond which makes a significant difference in how his recovery will go. The aging process and metabolic repercussions aren't as noticeable in your twenties. These changes will absolutely affect recovery because a lot of recovery is repairing neurological changes to the receptors in the brain and restoring neurotransmitter balance.

 

[adelphos]

Moreaux, I doubt if your dad does know me. I was a radio operator. I was either with the Battalion command post, or humping with a grunt company, forward observer for Artillery, Forward Air Control for air strikes. I never worked with Recon, I am not in the same class as them. Recon is the Navy Seals of the Marines or like Green Berets of the Army. Your Dad is a hero! 3 years in Nam as Recon, Your Dad is one bad dude.

Thanks for everything! Semper Fi!

 

[adelphos]

@ Moreaux, I did as you instructed and here are the results. Per my doctor, I am taking 10 mg. of Melatonin DR, 200 mg. L-Theanine. I started 4 days ago and have been able to sleep 7-9 hours per night. I wake up, but can get back to sleep, where as before I couldn't. I don't know how long this will last but it sure feels good to sleep more than 3 or 4 hours. BTW, I have sleep apnea, so solid sleep is a must for me or I fall asleep driving, sitting in a chair, taking a bath... I posted this here in case someone else might benefit from this info.

Please wish your dad a happy 241st, Uh-Rah! Thanks so much for your compassion.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Just so you are aware, 10mg of melatonin is kind of overkill. Your body only needs like 2mg tops. But do what works for you. I'd just suggest trying a lower dose sometime and seeing how it works, because I have the sneaking suspicion that it'll work just as well. Sometimes less is truly more when it comes to medication.

 

[adelphos]

Just so you are aware, 10mg of melatonin is kind of overkill. Your body only needs like 2mg tops. But do what works for you. I'd just suggest trying a lower dose sometime and seeing how it works, because I have the sneaking suspicion that it'll work just as well. Sometimes less is truly more when it comes to medication.

Yeah I agree 10 is overkill but my doctor has o.k.ed me for up to 80 mg. I was taking 3 mg IR but wasn't effective so I went to a time realeased as my doctor advised. I live in boondocks USA and the local walmart only carries 1 kind of time released melatonin and that is 10 mg. That is mainly why I am on 10. I plan to reduce that as my sleep pattern stabilizes. It's been 16 months since I had a normal sleep pattern. Right now I would eat rat shit if it would make me sleep. However I got another 8 hours last night thanks to you guys. Not quite ready to charge hell with a snowball yet, but I'm getting there. Someone also mentioned that I am getting on in years. Bingo, I have a friend that is my age and he gets 3 hours a night. That is all, but he is refreshed. My doctor told me that when you get older your melatonin levels drop early during sleep and that is why you could serve breakfast at 4 am in a nursing home because everyone is awake. My problem is I didn't have any of these issues before I took Morphine or while I was on Morphine, but now that I am off Morphine I have all these issues. Like sneezing, what is up with all this sneezing? Since I stopped using Morphine, I sneeze daily. I don't even remember the last time I sneezed until I quit. So at this point I am just trying to sort out what is causing what and what can I do about it. It has literally forced me to accept many things I did not even realize were issues in my life and that is exactly where Peace lives, in acceptance.

Thanks again, you guys are great. This place has been an invaluable tool and a Balm to my weary soul. May Peace abide on you always.

Toothpastedog, sounds like a socal boy?

 

[Jabberwocky]

That I am