Parellel worlds

[swilow]

Not the most spiritual subject, true. But, I've been considering the idea's of parallel universes/worlds of late.

I wonder if the apparent existence of dark matter is evidence of huge quantities of matter folded into 'hidden' spatial dimensions. There does appear to be heaps more mass in the universe then is visible in any way except by inference (gravitational movements of galaxies indicating that they are responding to mass where none can be detected, the bending of light around invisible mass/gravitational lensing). String theory suggests that there are up to 11 spatial dimensions.

Many spiritual traditions (including the psychedelic 'tradition') speak of unseen worlds. When you think about it, it is a remarkably odd idea to conceive of. Why would there be any reason to believe that places exist that we cannot see, or normally access? And yet, modern physics has actually confirmed that the majority of the universe is invisible and yet exists. My own drug experiences have occaisionally 'taken me' to what feels like self-contained other realms; salvia divinorum is a typical catalyst for a complete removal of 'reality' and a total replacement with an actual navigable space. I'd dismiss that as firings of a drugged up brain, and yet, there is compelling scientific evidence for parallel dimensions.

What do you think?

 

[Help?!?!]

Who knows man! Quantum psychics is some wacky, but truly cool stuff. With all the new talks about black holes and what could possibly happen is pretty intense and amazingly interesting. I've always loved the multi-verse theory! I mean since energy can be created but never destroyed who knows! I've heard theories that when we die our energy is simply converted and that energy is possibly moved into another dimension, possibly illustrating ghosts and that sort of stuff... More to come later...

 

[-=SS=-]

Going to have to shit on about half of your parade here willow

I wonder if the apparent existence of dark matter is evidence of huge quantities of matter folded into 'hidden' spatial dimensions. There does appear to be heaps more mass in the universe then is visible in any way except by inference (gravitational movements of galaxies indicating that they are responding to mass where none can be detected, the bending of light around invisible mass/gravitational lensing). String theory suggests that there are up to 11 spatial dimensions.

Dark matter is a hypothetical postulate, required to make sense of observational data and balance the mathematical underlay of our cosmology. 96% of our universe is composed of it, so say'eth the lords of science.. but we can't see it or test it directly. How perfectly convenient lol. Our cosmology is way too heavily influenced by mathematicians, hence dark matter, string theory, and a whole host of other metaphysical junk that can't actually be tested or observed.. unless it's in their language and through their methods that no one except Phd mathematicians can understand. Again, how convenient

That said, I do believe there are many other realms in existence. I don't believe we will ever be able to scientifically explain them however. What I mean is, these realms or potentials exist beyond and outside of our physical dimension and it is impossible to either measure or intersect scientific instruments with these other places. So to say they are "parallel" dimensions is facetious because no one has actually observed these other realms in respect to our own. It is not possible. So again what we have is hyperbole or "scientific advertising jargon".. parallel sounds cool, but it means nothing tangible.

The only instrument capable of interacting with these other realms is us.. because we, I, is observing from a point beyond the physical and mind dimensions. No physical matter, hence scientific instruments, can be taken into these other realms. Mathematics is the closest thing we have as it is a bridge between physical and abstract/mind.. but all our maths in the physical dimension relates to ratios and yardsticks of this dimension, such as the time it takes to go round the Sun and so forth. Those markers simply don't exist in other dimensions. We will always come up short from a scientific perpsective.. science can deal with the physical.. the occult can deal with the mental.

I've heard theories that when we die our energy is simply converted and that energy is possibly moved into another dimension, possibly illustrating ghosts and that sort of stuff... More to come later...

Ghosts are a great example of how something from another realm/dimension can be witnessed by us, but not detected through instrumentation. The essence/ghost can impinge upon our mental sphere, which we then in turn project on to the physical dimension.. but it doesn't actually exist in the physical. It's all very real.. just not in this dimension.

Now. I'm. So utterly confused!

 

[swilow]

Going to have to shit on about half of your parade here willow

Have at it :D

Dark matter is a hypothetical postulate, required to make sense of observational data and balance the mathematical underlay of our cosmology. 96% of our universe is composed of it, so say'eth the lords of science.. but we can't see it or test it directly. How perfectly convenient lol. Our cosmology is way too heavily influenced by mathematicians, hence dark matter, string theory, and a whole host of other metaphysical junk that can't actually be tested or observed.. unless it's in their language and through their methods that no one except Phd mathematicians can understand. Again, how convenient

Look, I actually do agree. Dark matter is very convenient. It strikes me as something oddly faith based; I cannot see it, detect it's presence and yet, something 'should' be there- so it must be! There are physical effects consistent with the presence of mass, and yet none is observed. You could argue that whatever is used to measure this is uterly wrong; or there is, in fact, 'hidden', unobservable matter in the universe.

I read a thing about string theory, that some theoretical physicists simply feel it is pure mathematics with very little physical application. Intellectual masturbation. I have no really opinion, as I don't (and probably never will) understand the maths behind it. I have no vested interest in it, but I love the idea of hidden realms of space and time.

That said, I do believe there are many other realms in existence. I don't believe we will ever be able to scientifically explain them however. What I mean is, these realms or potentials exist beyond and outside of our physical dimension and it is impossible to either measure or intersect scientific instruments with these other places.

I feel like you put forth a similar argument to the string-theorists. You are saying there is no way to observe such a thing, but you seem convinced that such a thing exists.

I feel like you have some experiences to lead you to your belief. What, if I might ask, were they?

I'm confused too :D

 

[-=SS=-]

Look, I actually do agree. Dark matter is very convenient. It strikes me as something oddly faith based; I cannot see it, detect it's presence and yet, something 'should' be there- so it must be! There are physical effects consistent with the presence of mass, and yet none is observed. You could argue that whatever is used to measure this is utterly wrong; or there is, in fact, 'hidden', unobservable matter in the universe.

It strikes me as faith based science too. How can it not be when it is essentially invoking metaphysical explanations with no direct observation possible? The same thing applies to black holes, and as with both we rely on where these non-material processes interface with the physical.. and the bridge we use to try and make these metaphysical processes 'physical' is mathematics. I would even put the big bang in there too but that might ruffle too many feathers haha :D

I read a thing about string theory, that some theoretical physicists simply feel it is pure mathematics with very little physical application. Intellectual masturbation. I have no really opinion, as I don't (and probably never will) understand the maths behind it. I have no vested interest in it, but I love the idea of hidden realms of space and time.

Does anyone beyond the mathematicians understand string theory? Probably not. I sure as hell don't. It definitely seems like intellectual wankery to me.. and a bit of sly business shenanigans where these experts get funding by convincing everyone this is all so important, despite no one else besides the experts being able to make sense of any of it!

I feel like you put forth a similar argument to the string-theorists. You are saying there is no way to observe such a thing, but you seem convinced that such a thing exists.

I feel like you have some experiences to lead you to your belief. What, if I might ask, were they?

Sure. I'm certain that 'mind' is a non-local dimension in its own right, that we as individuals have our own space in it and yet somehow are tied to some sort of greater fabric or mental environment. No idea how it works though! I always had a lingering suspicion when I closed my eyes during my handful of psychedelic experiences as a teen, that the geometric vistas, planes, objects and so forth were somehow 'real'.. not just imagined stuff or synaptic chaos (some of it is though). When I had my NN-DMT experiences I had the same impression again, but stronger.

However it was the sporadic experiences during meditation that actually convinced me.. the visions were crystal clear, immaculate and sharp. The feeling I was actually 'there' in another dimension was so present, it just struck me instantly and completely. It was instant and undeniable. Words don't capture that impression very well.. and all I have is my word unfortunately. You just know this/there is something different to the physical dimension. It has a certain quality and feeling to it, but I can't really relate it to anything physical.

I was just 'there' and watching.. there was a small fragment of my relative mind present (and probably how I remembered it post-experience), but largely the process was out of my control and was just happening to me.. I just watched. It really seemed like I was just a point in total blackness, and this dimension or whatever was being projected 'in front' of me. Been trying to find visually similar images or artistic pieces that capture it.. the only one that comes close actually is this particular bit from 2001 space odyssey stargate sequence.. from 5:41 - 6:00. There's a quality to that bit that really captures my experiences.. simple geometrics flowing at you, striking colour, against a total blackness.

I'm confused too :D

Good! The sign of a thinking mind.

 

[Munchkoala]

This is an interesting topic.

From my understanding, bosonic string theory predicts 26 spacetime dimensions, while superstring theory predicts 10. M theory predicts 11.

Trying to imagine these dimensions is, generally, difficult in our 4 dimensional spacetime.

Though an ant walking down a hose is used as a common analogy, it has been more fun, ime, to get blatantly out of it on dissociatives and try imagine other dimensions myself.

The mind can be creative

 

[Ninae]

This often seems to be related to the idea of different timelines. Like the idea there was a World war 3 on another timeline that we avoided. For all you know, there could be 300 versions of you out there.

 

[Kittycat5]

So I guess black holes or exoplanets dont exist either since we cant see them. Dark matter does cause gravitational lensing, so something certainly is there.

It really isnt so far fetched to think of multiple worlds or universes. If the universe is simply infinite, there will be other copies of everthing right in our own single universe, as the number of ways particles can form is not infinite. We, as of now, will never have access to them as they are beyond our observable universes boundries and are expanding away from us. We may as well call them parallel worlds.

Then of course there is the many worlds interpretation of QM that seem to create multiple universes but, although popular and the leading contender for the "correct interpretation" it irks me and I cant speak well enough about QM to say why it does bother me.

But onto string theory, since extra dimensions is really the topic. As stated, string theory calls for at least 10 dimensions. But they are infintessimally tiny (compactified is the proper term) so I cannot fathom some supernatural entity can be in there and only through our minds can we communicate with them. That is even sillier than a lot of the silliness of string theory itself. But these compactified dimensions, if they exist, do help the last form of multiverse idea, the eternal inflation model. Basically, after the big bang, our universe probably went on a brief period of exponential growth enlarging by something like 10^50 in size. This is pretty well accepted in cosmology as it explains several issues. Several physicists theorize that this inflation isnt a one time deal, but occurs infinitely many times, spawning different bubble universes, isolated from ours and perhaps with different fundamental laws of physics. Now this seems completely unscientific, bordering on metaphysical or even religious. Except the idea of an extremely large or infinite number of universes helps explain one of the most embarrassing idea of modern cosmology, if not all physics. When it was discovered the universe is accelerating, the cosmological constant turned to be the most fine tuned of all the constants of nature. Since it is non-zero but so small (10^-120) it appears like it was set this way purposefully. But eternal inflation can shrug this off simply by saying that since we are only one of an infinite number of universes, all with different fundamental laws, it is not only natural to have at least one universe with an apparent ultra fined tuned cosmological constant, but it is to be expected there are others just as or even more tuned.

But where does string theories extra dimensions fit into this? Well, those compactified dimension take on a shape known as a Calabi-Yau manifold. But this shape can come in many forms. String theorists speculate there are 10^500 different shapes the CY manifold can take on, all which can give a model of some (not necessarily ours) universe. This was perplexing to the string guys as how could one possibly find what is the correct shape to describe our universe with so many options? But when you take these two ideas together (string theory and eternal inflation) it is quite compelling how they justify each other. If there are infinite bubble universes, than 10^500 CY shapes is nothing. And if there are 10^500 CY shapes, then of course one will have a cosmological constant of 10^-122.

So yes, there is a lot of mental masturbation in string theory, as,well as eternal inflation. But it is tantalizing how when taken together, they may explain one of the toughest issues facing physicists today. And people are trying to come up with experiments to start to see if this is reality. CERN's LHC may be able to show if supersymmetry exists which can go on to show that there is a viable candidate for a real dark matter particle, that superstring theory has a basis in reality and many other things. We dont need to invoke the supernatural simply because we dont have the answers yet.

 

[tantric]

okay, here's how it works: there is a Main Line. the operational definition of the Main Line is 'impossible thing don't happen'. only, of course, they do - these are the splits. it is a terrible thing to find yourself in a split, to realize that reality has left the building. the thing to do is to dissociate yourself from whatever impossible thing it was that happened - you must make it Somebody Else's Problem. when you do that, you segue back into the Main Line and shit starts making sense again.

until you learn some tricks, making impossible possible, managing the splits - well, that's post grad.

YMMV

 

[tantric]

okay, here's how it works: there is a Main Line. the operational definition of the Main Line is 'impossible thing don't happen'. only, of course, they do - these are the splits. it is a terrible thing to find yourself in a split, to realize that reality has left the building. the thing to do is to dissociate yourself from whatever impossible thing it was that happened - you must make it Somebody Else's Problem. when you do that, you segue back into the Main Line and shit starts making sense again.

until you learn some tricks, making impossible possible, managing the splits - well, that's post grad.

YMMV

 

[Help?!?!]

What about the theories that the universe is simply a computer simulation? Also the talk of different timelines reminds me of the anime series Steins Gate, pretty cool, and all about time travel with different timelines.

 

[Xorkoth]

I think it's almost certain that our current concept of how the universe is structured and what this "is" is wrong. As time goes on eventually it will change, perhaps fundamentally. I think the idea of dark matter is a pretty decent attempt from us to understand the data we are observing though. However, I'm willing to be it's much more complicated. When we discovered atoms, we were sure we had found the smallest building blocks of the universe, but then we discovered that atoms are made up of even smaller parts. It seems like a strange denial to think that NOW we've found the smallest parts. It's the same with the macro scale... we discovered what the other planets are, then we discovered that stars are all suns, with their own systems of satellites. Then we discovered that stars are grouped into galaxies, and then into clusters. It seems most likely to me that it's all infinite in both directions, micro and macro. Is the span of dimensionality infinite too? Who fucking knows? None of us do, that's for sure, and neither does anyone alive. And we'll never know it all. It's fun to think and talk about though.

This often seems to be related to the idea of different timelines. Like the idea there was a World war 3 on another timeline that we avoided. For all you know, there could be 300 versions of you out there.

I think if there's more than one version of us, there are infinite. I think of space-time as the 4th dimension, and "reality" as the 5th. We span multiple slices of the 3rd dimensional space simultaneously and can move around in it of our own volition. But we are locked into a steady movement in one direction of time, the 4th dimension. We move through it, but not of our own control. We also exist in one slice of the 5th dimension... maybe we drift in that too, who knows? But each slice of the 5th dimension is the totality of an entire space-time continuum, and each slice is a different configuration of how space-time plays out. In another you exist differently, in another you don't exist at all, in another it's exactly the same as this one except you ate a different meal one day. In another maybe just one single atom arranged itself differently at some point. It's infinity we're talking about. I once considered the dilemma where if space-time is a dimension, then the future exists already and events are set, hence free will is an illusion. Then I thought, what if our actions cause us, in some way we are entirely unaware of, to drift in the 5th dimension as well? So depending on what you do, the future you are experiencing will be changed, but all possible outcomes do still exist and are fixed, you have just exited all but the one you're currently in.

I wonder if there are any beings who exist spanning higher dimensions? Things that are able to move through time or reality like how we move through the 3rd dimensional space?

 

[Ninae]

What about the theories that the universe is simply a computer simulation?

Never mind that, what about the idea that it's a projection just for YOU and everything else you see in this world is self-generated? The only problem with that is the other beings you are obviously interacting with and can affect.

But you never know, they could have just lent you some of their soul-essence to appear in your manifistation, and you them. That way we're all in our own isolated worlds with only an illusion of each other.

Kind of makes it seem pointless to do anything to help out in this world, apart from for self-expansion. Maybe like an advanced computer game? I have a feeling it's somehow like that but at the same time not only that.

 

[Ninae]

I wonder if there are any beings who exist spanning higher dimensions? Things that are able to move through time or reality like how we move through the 3rd dimensional space?

There is the 6th dimension - the atmic plane. The 7th dimension - the Monadic plane (before the 8th Logoic plane). The 5th dimension corresponds with the Buddhic plane.

You can learn about all of these in many systems (hinduism, theosophy, kabbala, etc.). On the higher planes you are a form of god that perceives a human lifetime as one minute and also has many aspects of itself in incarnation. From its perspective I guess it would be like moving game pieces around on a board.

 

[Xorkoth]

Interesting thoughts, but I don't just believe in something automatically that an ancient system professes. I prefer to think about it in more mathematical terms, based on observations we can measure and understand about 3 dimensional space and the lower dimensional spaces that make it up, and inferring that the same patterns would hold as you move up in dimensionality. Of course I can't really even begin to feel sure about what it would be like to experiences consciousness in a higher dimensional setting.

 

[Ninae]

It's not about the ancient systems. They're just trying to describe what people have seen through the ages. The cosmology of 7 densities or planes of existence is a classic like the human chakra-system (which you can feel for yourself).

The Law of One also discusses this in detail, although it's a pain to read.

I once briefly had an experience in what might have been the sixth dimension. It was overwhelming and made me feel dizzy as the vibrations was so high. There was an almost painful feeling of holiness (which we're not used to now).


http://www.energyreality.com/pgs/7lev.htm

 

[-=SS=-]

I prefer to think about it in more mathematical terms, based on observations we can measure and understand about 3 dimensional space and the lower dimensional spaces that make it up, and inferring that the same patterns would hold as you move up in dimensionality. Of course I can't really even begin to feel sure about what it would be like to experiences consciousness in a higher dimensional setting.

Referring back to what I wrote earlier in this thread, I think there's a danger of relying of mathematics to explain, postulate or speculate. It's useful as an abstract bridge but we have to presume that mathematics is applicable in the same fashion beyond our physical dimension.. but we don't actually know that it can be. Personally I tend to think through the mathematical paradigm too, but I will concede that maybe maths doesn't go beyond this dimension at all.. that perhaps a different language is required altogether.

 

[Ninae]

This was very interesting.


http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_dimensionshyperdimensions02.htm


Beings who are exploring the Material World
And taking a Stand for its Validity
Suffer from the Illusion of Separation
From their Spirit

 

[-=SS=-]

Came across this yesterday, thought it might fit in with this thread. Some soothing perspective from Carl Sagan.

 

[Xorkoth]

Carl Sagan

The book Flatland first got me thinking about the mathematics of dimensionality when I was a kid.