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Palestine discussion

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my point is, this is a palestine discussion and the abraham accords promoted the opposite of peace in terms of palestinians and israelis
 
^Its about time. Though I know in the past Hamas has imprisoned and tortured protesters and kept them at bay with such threats.

Perhaps this means that Hamas rule is nearing an end. I hope so for the sake of the residents of Gaza. Hamas has been nothing but pure evil to both the Palestinians and the Israelis.
 
Cream Gravy? said:
^Its about time. Though I know in the past Hamas has imprisoned and tortured protesters and kept them at bay with such threats.
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It's the trouble with these scenarios, anyone with foresight would have known this was the way.. that as a collective they had to stand up against Hamas (rather than vote them in).. but no one ever wants to make the first move. So, you end up being obliterated or the society collapses, and then people with no other option finally decide now is the time after you've lost everything and so many people (probably more than what would have happened if they stood up earlier).

Same logic applies to the USA, UK, and the West generally right now. We should have stood up 20 years ago against our governments, maybe even longer ago than that. The same thing is going to happen to us. Much death and destruction, then we decide we've had enough. It's so stupid, it's lose-lose instead of lose-win.

You'd think though with such a strong religious system that a few people would be prepared to have the courage, to gamble torture and death, to save their people and land. They seem to have no trouble finding young men to blow up innocent Israeli's or what have you. Humans are such a curious bunch.
 
-=SS=- said:
It's the trouble with these scenarios, anyone with foresight would have known this was the way.. that as a collective they had to stand up against Hamas (rather than vote them in).. but no one ever wants to make the first move. So, you end up being obliterated or the society collapses, and then people with no other option finally decide now is the time after you've lost everything and so many people (probably more than what would have happened if they stood up earlier).

Same logic applies to the USA, UK, and the West generally right now. We should have stood up 20 years ago against our governments, maybe even longer ago than that. The same thing is going to happen to us. Much death and destruction, then we decide we've had enough. It's so stupid, it's lose-lose instead of lose-win.

You'd think though with such a strong religious system that a few people would be prepared to have the courage, to gamble torture and death, to save their people and land. They seem to have no trouble finding young men to blow up innocent Israeli's or what have you. Humans are such a curious bunch.
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The thing that most people are not aware of is that Islam is not just a religion but also the pillar of their culture and the root of their governments. I had long conversations about this with some of my Muslim colleagues who explained over and over how they are conditioned from birth to think this way. They do not want the freedom to choose who leads them, they truly believe that they are doing Allah's will by following their religious leaders. It is a culture that most of us find hard to understand because there is no secular world to them; only the faithful and infidel. They will follow their leaders to their deaths believing they will be rewarded by their sacrifice.

It is not easy for them to come to the conclusion that Hamas could be evil; nor for them to accept that their religious clerics could or would lead them astray.

Let it be clear that I don't hate them, I simply accept what they believe and why. We have so much more apparent freedom of thought that it is hard for us in western culture to frame their beliefs and lack of freedom.
 
Here is a video that features a Mulsim woman raised in Palestine who explains what it means to be raised and live there.

 
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Cheshire_Kat said:
The thing that most people are not aware of is that Islam is not just a religion but also the pillar of their culture and the root of their governments. I had long conversations about this with some of my Muslim colleagues who explained over and over how they are conditioned from birth to think this way. They do not want the freedom to choose who leads them, they truly believe that they are doing Allah's will by following their religious leaders. It is a culture that most of us find hard to understand because there is no secular world to them; only the faithful and infidel. They will follow their leaders to their deaths believing they will be rewarded by their sacrifice.
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Sure. It works both ways too, because we're not all that different from them in the West really. We've advanced away from religious bondage but just substituted it with a bunch of different institutions that made a few concessions to the public e.g. believe in hard work for capitalism and you'll get a pension when you retire. Underneath the psychology is still much the same, and when push comes to shove all the ideology (Islam, democracy, whatever) just melts in the face of the reality of now.. i.e. you've now lost everything, land and people, and only now do you think to think in a different way. It's just the same old sad story.
Cheshire_Kat said:
Let it be clear that I don't hate them, I simply accept what they believe and why. We have so much more apparent freedom of thought that it is hard for us in western culture to frame their beliefs and lack of freedom.
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Likewise, and I think most people who criticise Islam fall into this space.. we're all brothers, deep down we all want to see each other succeed and be happy.

Anything is possible, I believe. If they tied themselves up in this mess, psychologically speaking, it can be untied. Christianity achieved it in the middle ages, there's no reason Islam can't undergo a tremendous reformation. I do like to contemplate on how that might be achieved, how we might circumvent what looks like an inevitable clash of cultures in Europe.. I'd love to speculate openly here but someone may be listening :sneaky:
 
Most of the extreme anti-Zionist Jews are part of an extremist sect of Judaism

They oppose the state of Israel for religious reasons and have co opted the free Palestinian movement for visibility

Not saying that this accounts for all of them, not at all. Just know when you see the Haredi and others, know the reason they oppose Zionism is not for the same reasons you do... it's because they think the Jewish state should only be established AFTER the return of the messiah.

They don't want some kind of secular utopia.
 
yes, hamas bad, just putting that out there again so there's no confusion (not directed at you mal, just the ethyr)
 
490815928_10237780622840295_6353355626701703490_n.jpg
 
-=SS=- said:
It's the trouble with these scenarios, anyone with foresight would have known this was the way.. that as a collective they had to stand up against Hamas (rather than vote them in).. but no one ever wants to make the first move. So, you end up being obliterated or the society collapses, and then people with no other option finally decide now is the time after you've lost everything and so many people (probably more than what would have happened if they stood up earlier).

Same logic applies to the USA, UK, and the West generally right now. We should have stood up 20 years ago against our governments, maybe even longer ago than that. The same thing is going to happen to us. Much death and destruction, then we decide we've had enough. It's so stupid, it's lose-lose instead of lose-win.

You'd think though with such a strong religious system that a few people would be prepared to have the courage, to gamble torture and death, to save their people and land. They seem to have no trouble finding young men to blow up innocent Israeli's or what have you. Humans are such a curious bunch.
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Well using other examples, people who made the first move in Nazi Germany got quickly identified, interrogated and then executed. And that was that until the allied forces came. How would you organize a great uprising in a state that controls nearly every aspect of your life?

And I wanna say that there is no justification for how Israel is handling this situation. Yes, the initial massacres warranted a sound response but hamas is not a danger to Israel right now. The situation was controlled and an agreement has been struck to free the hostages. Hamas was following said agreement. Who violated it was Israel thanks to Trumps involvement.

I can understand that an increasing amount of people think that what we are witnessing is de facto a genocide and with Trump supporting *everything* that the rightwing extremist government in Israel is doing things will get a lot worse for the palestinians.
 
Electrum1 said:
99% of Palestinians are still alive since this genocide started
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50k palestinians are dead. Mostly civilians held captive by hamas. You can't win an asymmetrical conflict with brute force. Otherwise you end up with a huge graveyard. Not to mention that palestinians live as second class citizens, in and outside of gaza. They have their own legal system, their own rights and their own punishments compared to israeli citizens. Land is being continually taken away. Pretty much all of this are elements of a genocide according to the UN definition.
 
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